Messiah and the Covenant

[ananda]

Perhaps you missed my earlier comment on this and are not therefore intentionally misrepresenting. The Greek word kainos means something new. Kainos is the ONLY greek word used to refer to the New Testament. The Greek word for renew is anakinezo. The one and only use of anakinezo is in Hebrews 6:6 where it is said that once a man has fallen away from the truth, it is impossible to renew him again to repentence, seeing they crucify Jesus to themselves again, putting him to an open shame. Otherwise, I would like to know what dictionary you found where kainos means renew. The publishers should be made aware of the error.

Through the use of the word kainos in Scripture itself, we can know its intent as compared to neos, as I've explained previously.

Here's another witness from how Messiah used the word Himself: "ἐντολὴν καινὴν δίδωμι ὑμῖν ἵνα ἀγαπᾶτε ἀλλήλους καθὼς ἠγάπησα ὑμᾶς ἵνα καὶ ὑμεῖς ἀγαπᾶτε ἀλλήλους" Jn 13:34. In the KJV, it is translated "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."

Messiah here used καινὴν - contrary to the belief of the KJV translators, this was certainly not a new commandment; it was already in existence in the past in Torah (Lev 19:18). Messiah came to refresh and renew it from man's traditions which had grown up around it. καινὴν means renewed, not brand-new.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Do you believe that I can hear the salvation message through Messiah's Words only, or do I need Paul's words too?

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak; for he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me; for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you." John 16:13-14

According to Jesus, he has much more to teach those who follow him, but they cannot bear them until the Spirit comes to teach us about Jesus and to glorify him.

Amazing how consistent the Gospel is.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Clare73]

Through the use of the word kainos in Scripture itself, we can know its intent as compared to neos, as I've explained previously.

Here's another witness from how Messiah used the word Himself: "ἐντολὴν καινὴν δίδωμι ὑμῖν ἵνα ἀγαπᾶτε ἀλλήλους καθὼς ἠγάπησα ὑμᾶς ἵνα καὶ ὑμεῖς ἀγαπᾶτε ἀλλήλους" Jn 13:34. In the KJV, it is translated "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."

Messiah here used καινὴν - contrary to the belief of the KJV translators, this was certainly not a new commandment; it was already in existence in the past in Torah (Lev 19:18). Messiah came to refresh and renew it from man's traditions which had grown up around it. καινὴν means renewed, not brand-new.

Ah, it was brand spanking new. . .Love one another as I have loved you (not as you love yourself) was never given before.

Nor did it carry a curse on transgression of it.

Neither is a small matter.

 

[ananda]

The Word of God reveals that there was more divine revelation given after the death and ascension of Jesus ... One's knowledge of Christ is stunted without full knowledge of the NT Word of God.

We have different perspectives on Scriptures and their relative authority. This is the root cause of our disagreements, and it would be pointless to discuss other issues unless we are on agreement on this one issue.

 

[ananda]

Ah, it was brand spanking new. . .Love one another as I have loved you (not as you love yourself) was never given before.

Did Messiah love differently than YHWH?

 

[Pilgrimer]

Through the use of the word kainos in Scripture itself, we can know its intent

You're suggesting Jesus intended to say anakinezo?

Here's another witness from how Messiah used the word Himself: "ἐντολὴν καινὴν δίδωμι ὑμῖν ἵνα ἀγαπᾶτε ἀλλήλους καθὼς ἠγάπησα ὑμᾶς ἵνα καὶ ὑμεῖς ἀγαπᾶτε ἀλλήλους" Jn 13:34. In the KJV, it is translated "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."

Messiah here used καινὴν - contrary to the belief of the KJV translators, this was certainly not a new commandment; it was already in existence in the past in Torah (Lev 19:18). Messiah came to refresh and renew it from man's traditions which had grown up around it. καινὴν means renewed, not brand-new.[/quote]

First, the KJV translators translated the word kainos which does not mean renew, but new.

But second, and more important, Jesus didn't tell us to love our neighbors as ourselves, he told us to love one another as he did ... he laid down his life! He loved us more than he loved himself! That's the way he commanded us to love one another, and that's why it is a new commandment. "Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his brother."

You dishonor Jesus by putting him on a par with Moses. He is greater than Moses, his teachings are superior to those of Moses, his commandments are higher than those of Moses, Jesus' words are LIFE.

Whatever Baptist church you attended for 20 years ... shame on them that you don't know any better than that.

How about another thing Jesus taught and try very hard to understand the message:

"Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved."

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

We have different perspectives on Scriptures and their relative authority. This is the root cause of our disagreements, and it would be pointless to discuss other issues unless we are on agreement on this one issue.

That's not true. We have different perspectives on Jesus, and that is the root cause of the disagreements. People tend to see in the Scripture what they want to.


In Christ,
Pigrimer

 

[Frogster]

... and you'll understand that I follow the Scriptures which Messiah Himself identified as the Word of YHWH, which states that Sabbath was (Ex 20:8), is (Ex 31:16), and will be celebrated by His people in the future (Isa 66:22-24).

THE SABBATH WAS FOR OLD COV JEWS, NOT THE CHURCH..JEWISH CALENDAR WORDAGE, SAME AS COL 2...


2 Chron 2:4 Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the Lord my God and dedicate it to him for the burning of incense of sweet spices before him, and for the regular arrangement of the showbread, and for burnt offerings morning and evening, on the Sabbaths and the new moons and the appointed feasts of the Lord our God, as ordained forever for Israel.

Not for Gentiles...

Psalm 147:19He declares his word to Jacob, his statutes and rules[c] to Israel.20 He has not dealt thus with any other nation; they do not know his rules.[d]
Praise the Lord!

 

[Frogster]

Sources, from two or more first-hand witnesses, please?

The apostles themselves were already commissioned by Messiah to preach to the Gentiles. You're suggesting that they disobeyed Messiah by delegating this responsibility to Paul instead.

Where are your witnesses that Luke lied, or made mistakes as he repeatedly upheld and SUPPORTED AND WITNESSED PAUL?

I have shown u evidence, but u can't refute it, so u must think Luke lied, and peter who supports Paul, and call his writings SCRITURE..


WHERE ARE YOUR "WITNESSES" THAT THEY ARE WRONG?

 

[Frogster]

Sources, from two or more first-hand witnesses, please?

The apostles themselves were already commissioned by Messiah to preach to the Gentiles. You're suggesting that they disobeyed Messiah by delegating this responsibility to Paul instead.

Read this, and tell me if Luke does not witness Paul. Luke records Peter and James saying not to burden the church with the yoke of law in Acts 15, same as how Paul referred to the law and it being a yoke. Peter also called Paul scripture in 2 Peter 3:16.

So when Luke says the Holy Spirit in Acts 13, sent out Paul, along with the prophets sending him, that does not WITNESS Paul?

When Luke says Paul was a chosen instrument, as spoken by the Lord in acts 9:15, that does not WITNESS Paul?

Does Luke record Ananias a disciple witness not WITNESS Paul in Acts 9?

A Jewish prophet named Silas, started churches with Paul. There is a good WITNESS.

When the demons in acts 19, recognized the same Spirit in Paul, as Jesus, that does not WITNESS Paul?

When the very respected Barnabas, the man of faith in Acts 4 and 11, went to get Paul, that does not WITNESS Paul?

When Luke records Jesus in acts 18, 22, 23, telling Paul to keep going, without any correction TO HIS MESSAGE, that does not WITNESS Paul?

When an angel in acts 27 supports Paul, that does not WITNESS Paul?

When Torah knowing Aquila and Priscilla travel with Paul, that does not WITNESS Paul?

When the council in acts 15 agreed with Paul, and his gospel, as per recorded in Galatians 2, that does not WITNESS Paul? They also called him “our beloved brother Paul”, who risked his life for the Lord.

When Torah knowing Timothy travels with Paul, along with Luke himself, that does not WITNESS Paul?

Do the miracles recorded by Luke, Acts 19:11 etc, saying GOD did miracles through Paul, WITNESS Paul?

The churches of Judea, praised God, because of Paul, Galatians 1:24, and they weren’t even Gentiles.

 

[Frogster]

Mt 15:20 is the inspired explanation for Mt 15:11: He was referring to unwashed hands, not food. Messiah was attacking the Pharisees' oral-torah (traditions) which modified written-Torah (Mt 15:2).

it says all foods clean Mark 7:19, there is no uncertainty there, the foods clean, and Jesus told Paul the same..other than for weak people bound under jewish law, in the Roman house churches...


. Romans 14:14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.


14:20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats.

 

[Frogster]

Source?

If I may ask, what gives you reason to believe that I have two standards?

Acts shows the james and Peter were of the same gosepl, peter said saved by faith and grace in Acts 15, NO DISTCINTION between jew and gentile...

recorded in Gal 2...


They saw the apostleship, grace, and the same God at work in Paul, as the jewish apsotles..gal 2 also...

WHY DID A JEWISH PROPHET, SILAS, RIGHT OUTTA THAT CHURCH IN JERUSDALEM, START CHURCHES WITH PAUL..?

HEHEHEHE..

 

[Frogster]

Acts is not first-hand testimony from the apostles. It is largely the second-hand witness of Luke If I wrote a "Modern Day Acts of the Apostles", would you accept it as first-hand testimony from the apostles? If not, what makes Luke any more legitimate?

Yes, I wrote that Paul was both true and false. How do you identify that with me having two standards?

Peter said God gave BELOVED Paul wisdom in 2 peter 3, and called his writings scripture, and called the Gospel grace, as Paul did in Acts 20:24, SAME AS Peter in 1 Peter 1;10-12..

GRACE...NOT LAW...

 

[Frogster]

Does Torah say that eating unclean things make a man or woman unclean?

if one touches one is defiled...

 

[Frogster]

The word "new", in the three instances where Messiah speaks about the "new covenant", is the Greek word kainos, which more accurately means "renewed". It is only "new" in the sense that it has not been seen recently; however, it has existed in the past. I've addressed this previously, please see here.

It has to be new, a renewed cov would be the same laws, and that would bind the church to Moses..

no way, unhistorical, and unscriptural

Kainos is not neos...

 

[Frogster]

A witness must possess first-hand knowledge of an issue to meet Scriptural requirements. See Lev 5:1, 1Jn 1:2, Job 29:11. Second-hand, or hearsay, information is insufficient. The testimony of two or more witnesses does not automatically make their testimony true. The agreed testimony of two or more first-hand witnesses is required to simply begin an investigation into the truth of a matter. The testimony of witnesses is only established as true when they agree with the Law and the Prophets (cf. Isa 8:20, 30:9-14, Lk 10:26, etc.).

To believe Paul (Gal 2:7-9) would mean to accept his belief that he alone was sent to the Gentiles, and the 12 were sent only to the Jews; this contradicts Messiah's Word.

the "witness" verses are for the most part about bringing legal charges in a court case, u really use those verses wrong..

Paul preached in synagogues, and was sent to Israel, acts 9:15..wow..dude...

There were jews in all his churches, even Antioch, peter was for both also, there were jews and gentiles in his churches, paul was just stressing what sphere each went to, u overpress gal 2.

 

[ananda]

You're suggesting Jesus intended to say anakinezo?

No, I am saying Messiah intended to say καινὴν.

But second, and more important, Jesus didn't tell us to love our neighbors as ourselves, he told us to love one another as he did

If Yehoshua was separate from YHWH, I would agree this is a new commandment. I believe that Yehoshua is YHWH, and YHWH demonstrated His love for us through Yehoshua. Yehoshua's love is identical to YHWH's love; this is not a new or separate commandment.

You dishonor Jesus by putting him on a par with Moses. He is greater than Moses, his teachings are superior to those of Moses, his commandments are higher than those of Moses, Jesus' words are LIFE.

Torah is not Moses' words. Torah is YHWH's Words.

... you don't know any better than that ... try very hard to understand the message:

... and with this ad hominem attack, I prefer not to continue this conversation.

 

[Pilgrimer]

No, I am saying Messiah intended to say καινὴν.

Jesus said what he intended, that his was the blood of a new (kainos) covenant. If he was renewing the old covenant, we would be offering the blood of bulls and goats for atonement of sin and eating a lamb at Passover in Jerusalem.

If Yehoshua was separate from YHWH, I would agree this is a new commandment. I believe that Yehoshua is YHWH, and YHWH demonstrated His love for us through Yehoshua.

And now we are to love another the way the Son demonstrated the Love of God for us. That is the new commandment.

Torah is not Moses' words. Torah is YHWH's Words.

... which came by Moses. You avoid the point. There is no life in the law of Moses. "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

... and with this ad hominem attack, I prefer not to continue this conversation.

The criticism was of the church you attended, but even that is unfair, our knowledge and understanding must come from above.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[JLB777]

1 John 2:27

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

Jeremiah 31:33-34

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."


The New Covenant that The Lord speaks about through Jeremiah is unique, in that each member of this New Covenant will know The Lord personally.

Not that any man shall have to teach his neighbor to "know" the Lord!

Of course, we all need to be taught the "ways" of God, for ... He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.


However, the purpose of these is to equipment and mature the body that we may grow up into Him. To walk as He walked. To overcome as He overcame, in that regard we will always need to be taught.



The point is, as Jeremiah speaks of and John teaches, no man needs to teach us to know The Lord, for we have an anointing from Him and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.



JLB

 

[tzadik]

You'll understand if I follow the Word of God, which states that Sabbath day is a shadow, the reality is in Christ (Col 2:16-17).

The reality told us that it's lawful to do good on His Father's Holy Day.
The reality told us that He is the Lord of God's Holy Day.
The reality told us that we are to do and teach even the LEAST of God's Commandments.
The reality told us that we are to keep God's commandments.
We are told in Scriptures to walk in the same manner as the reality walked.
We are told in Scriptures to be IMITATORS of the reality.
Did the Reality keep God's Sabbath day holy? Yes.
Should we as followers of the Reality? No? That would be error and completely against Scriptures.