Messages from Mary

[tansy]

I hope I'm posting this in the right section and that I am not violating the rules. If so, I do apologise and please advise ne.
I do not want this to denigrate anyone's beliefs or there to be any impoliteness, I just want reasoned and polite responses.

Anyway, I just wondered bwhat people's views were on appearances and messages from Mary. Whilst I am aware that a lot of Christians probably think they are false, the one's I have actually read, seem to make sense and I have not seen anything wrong with them.

Is there a problem with God communicating things through Mary, if that for example will speak to RCs? Or do you think He should just communicate through angels, or through His people on earth (obviously checking through the Scriptures as well).
I am also aware that some Christians believe that God nowadays only speaks through Scripture.

I would like to know your views and reasons for them, so I can learn, not to put down anyone's beliefs.

Thank you, and please move to a different forum if this one is not suitable.

 

[Quaero]

well a week without a response... I'll give it a go

am aware that a lot of Christians probably think they are false

Thats due to the fact almost all protestant denominations reject a majority of Marioligy, and after the reformation less emphasis was put on Mary. Because of this the Catholic veneration of may is declared Idol worship by some Christians. As such why would these people acknowledge the existence of such apparitions if it was 'heresy'

the one's I have actually read, seem to make sense and I have not seen anything wrong with them.

Thats because the ones you have read about are likely the ones that are accepted by the RC church. There are literally hundreds of sightings of Mary that are rejected due to an anti-RC sentiment, or because the clash with RC Doctrine.

Is there a problem with God communicating things through Mary

Not in my opinion, shes as valid a messenger as any other 'heavenly body'.

Or do you think He should just communicate through angels, or through His people on earth (obviously checking through the Scriptures as well).
I am also aware that some Christians believe that God nowadays only speaks through Scripture.

Undoubtedly God can communicate through all these methods. 'Should just' use one method or the other? that infers understanding of God's plan (which is probably prohibited somewhere in scripture )

I would like to know your views and reasons for them, so I can learn, not to put down anyone's beliefs.

I believe that many so called 'Marian apparitions' are fictitious in nature, why send Mary when the messiah is on hand? Surely a message from the divine Saviour of man would be more potent than one from his mum?

I'm not a baptized Christian myself, so a little bias may have crept in. But if you believe that it takes a bodily apparition of a sainted biblical figure to convey God's message to man, then why not believe Mary was chosen. Or perhaps she chose herself for such a duty. Or perhaps she was destined for that duty. As always, it comes down to what you want to believe.



Hope I've helped!

 

[tansy]

Thanks very much Quaero for your response - interesting as well as your faith icon is Christian seeker - and actually, maybe there would be less bias on your part.

 

[Axion]

Apparitions occurred in biblical times. The most famous being the appearance of Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration. In Tradition and scripture both Moses and Elijah were previously Assumed bodily into heaven - another similarity with Mary.

Marian apparitions approved by the Church have led to great increases in Faith among local people, and as Jesus himself said, we know whether something is of God or not, by its fruits.

 

[tansy]

Apparitions occurred in biblical times. The most famous being the appearance of Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration. In Tradition and scripture both Moses and Elijah were previously Assumed bodily into heaven - another similarity with Mary.

Marian apparitions approved by the Church have led to great increases in Faith among local people, and as Jesus himself said, we know whether something is of God or not, by its fruits.

Oh yes, hadn't looked at it that way.

Why does it seem (as far as I know) that Mary only appears in "RC" countries?
Also (though this might be for a different thread), does stigmata only appear on RC people? At least as far as I know itn does.

 

[E.C.]

Oh yes, hadn't looked at it that way.

Why does it seem (as far as I know) that Mary only appears in "RC" countries?
Also (though this might be for a different thread), does stigmata only appear on RC people? At least as far as I know itn does.

Not exclusively Roman...

The Theotokos has 'shown up' in Orthodox countries as well. Let us not also forget miraculous icons of her that have been known to weep. She has also spoken with many saints to help and aid them.

The icons of...
-Our Lady of Kazan.
-Theotokos of Vladimir.

Those are just two that come off the top of my head. Point being that God has 'used' the icons to reveal Himself time and again. I'd say the difference between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic approaches to when it may happen is that we don't like the press.

And I'm sure that if one even asked the Copts they would probably say something similar.

What is important to remember is that should one be blessed with such a miraculous happening is to alert one's priest and/or bishop if necessary. The demons just love to deceive us by masquerading as recognizable figures so thus it is important to 'test the spirits' so to say.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

The Catholics aren't the only one with a grip on her!

(No offense to my Catholic brothers and sisters!)

She has also appeared to the Eastern Orthodox --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Icon_of_theotokos_pokrov_naive.jpg
Russian icon of Pokrov.



According to Eastern Orthodox Sacred Tradition, the apparition of Mary the Theotokos occurred during the 10th century at the Blachernae church in Constantinople (modern-day Istanbul) where several of her relics (her robe, veil, and part of her belt) were kept. On Sunday, October 1 at four in the morning, St. Andrew the Blessed Fool-for-Christ, who was a Slav by birth, saw the dome of the church open and the Virgin Mary enter, moving in the air above him, glowing and surrounded by angels and saints. She knelt and prayed with tears for all faithful Christians in the world. The Virgin Mary asked her son, Jesus Christ, to accept the prayers of all the people entreating him and looking for her protection. Once her prayer was completed, she walked to the altar and continued to pray. Afterwards, she spread her veil over all the people in the church as a protection.

St Andrew turned to his disciple, St. Epiphanius, who was standing near him, and asked, "Do you see, brother, the Holy Theotokos, praying for all the world?" Epiphanius answered, "Yes, Holy Father, I see it and am amazed!"

An icon of the Virgin Mary praying, surrounded by people, was said to be kept in the Blachernae church. It is said to reproduce the events as St Andrew saw them that day.

 

[Sphinx777]

See this other thread as well...

Marian Apparitions...

 

[tansy]

thanks Sphinx

 

[tansy]

Not exclusively Roman...

The Theotokos has 'shown up' in Orthodox countries as well. Let us not also forget miraculous icons of her that have been known to weep. She has also spoken with many saints to help and aid them.

The icons of...
-Our Lady of Kazan.
-Theotokos of Vladimir.

Those are just two that come off the top of my head. Point being that God has 'used' the icons to reveal Himself time and again. I'd say the difference between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic approaches to when it may happen is that we don't like the press.

Ah...interesting....but so far as I know this sort of thing doesn't happen with, oh. I don't know, Methodists, Baptists, C of E etc. Do you think that is because it would prob be immediately dismissed out- of- hand, so God doesn't bother to use that line of communication with them, or what?



And I'm sure that if one even asked the Copts they would probably say something similar.

What is important to remember is that should one be blessed with such a miraculous happening is to alert one's priest and/or bishop if necessary. The demons just love to deceive us by masquerading as recognizable figures so thus it is important to 'test the spirits' so to say.

Have any of you experienced yourself, anything like this?

 

[tansy]

Apparitions occurred in biblical times. The most famous being the appearance of Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration. In Tradition and scripture both Moses and Elijah were previously Assumed bodily into heaven - another similarity with Mary.
.

Well Moses and Elijah were in the Bible, but how does one know that Mary also went to heaven that way? Are there any ancient writings or anything, or is it oral tradition?

 

[tansy]

The Catholics aren't the only one with a grip on her!

(No offense to my Catholic brothers and sisters!)

She has also appeared to the Eastern Orthodox --


Russian icon of Pokrov.



According to Eastern Orthodox Sacred Tradition, the apparition of Mary the Theotokos occurred during the 10th century at the Blachernae church in Constantinople (modern-day Istanbul) where several of her relics (her robe, veil, and part of her belt) were kept. On Sunday, October 1 at four in the morning, St. Andrew the Blessed Fool-for-Christ, who was a Slav by birth, saw the dome of the church open and the Virgin Mary enter, moving in the air above him, glowing and surrounded by angels and saints. She knelt and prayed with tears for all faithful Christians in the world. The Virgin Mary asked her son, Jesus Christ, to accept the prayers of all the people entreating him and looking for her protection. Once her prayer was completed, she walked to the altar and continued to pray. Afterwards, she spread her veil over all the people in the church as a protection.

St Andrew turned to his disciple, St. Epiphanius, who was standing near him, and asked, "Do you see, brother, the Holy Theotokos, praying for all the world?" Epiphanius answered, "Yes, Holy Father, I see it and am amazed!"

An icon of the Virgin Mary praying, surrounded by people, was said to be kept in the Blachernae church. It is said to reproduce the events as St Andrew saw them that day.

That's amazing.

 

[tansy]

I suppose it's a bit confusing, 'cos why use Mary to convey messages to people, when Jesus Himself sometimes appears to people in visions and things. And of course, God sometimes sends angels. I wonder why He uses so many different means.

 

[Thekla]

Not personally.

Though I will relay this: a close friend related that a member of her family had a dream in which she saw an icon of the Virgin Mary and was warned to flee their home. The family did so, carrying on their backs what few things they could. The next day the village was attacked and their home destroyed.

 

[tansy]

Not personally.

Though I will relay this: a close friend related that a member of her family had a dream in which she saw an icon of the Virgin Mary and was warned to flee their home. The family did so, carrying on their backs what few things they could. The next day the village was attacked and their home destroyed.

My goodness - lucky they heeded the warning.

Maybe God communicates with people then, in the way that they will best understand and receive it.
Maybe because I'm unused to and unfamiliar with iconography, and also, though I would honour and respect Mary as the mother of Jesus, (and I did go to a RC school and church when I was a child), I would not maybe regard her in quite the same way as RCs nd Orthodox, then God would be less likely to communicate with me in that way, and would use other ways. Hmm...interesting.

 

[E.C.]

Have any of you experienced yourself, anything like this?

Not personally, but I know those that have.

 

[Thekla]

I suppose it's a bit confusing, 'cos why use Mary to convey messages to people, when Jesus Himself sometimes appears to people in visions and things. And of course, God sometimes sends angels. I wonder why He uses so many different means.

Well, in the EO view, we are all His body, of His kingdom; we are community. In this sense, He expresses that we are 'kingdom/people of/community'. God is Trinity, He is one essence three persons. John says in his epistle that "God is love". God dwells in the 'mode of love'.

Can we love if we are alone ? If we are alone, who will receive our love and return our love? If we are alone, there is not love.

His people, his body/Church (if it is to be in the image of God) must be "in the mode of the Trinity", in a sharing of love. So the very fact of God as Trinity 'demands' that all of His are involved in and express His love.

His body cannot be divided; in His resurrection is demonstrated that He is not conquered by death, thus His body is also not 'conquered by death'.

 

[tansy]

Well, in the EO view, we are all His body, of His kingdom; we are community. In this sense, He expresses that we are 'kingdom/people of/community'. God is Trinity, He is one essence three persons. John says in his epistle that "God is love". God dwells in the 'mode of love'.

Can we love if we are alone ? If we are alone, who will receive our love and return our love? If we are alone, there is not love.

His people, his body/Church (if it is to be in the image of God) must be "in the mode of the Trinity", in a sharing of love. So the very fact of God as Trinity 'demands' that all of His are involved in and express His love.

His body cannot be divided; in His resurrection is demonstrated that He is not conquered by death, thus His body is also not 'conquered by death'.

So, are you saying in a sense, that God'll use anyone who is willing out of love, to convey His message? Yes, that makes sense. Actually, the Bible does say somewhere about even the stones would cry out if ..sorry, can;t remember exact scripture. And of course, he even used a donkey once! Yes, He always finds a way, doesn't He?

 

[Thekla]

yes

glory be to God !

 

[E.C.]

So, are you saying in a sense, that God'll use anyone who is willing out of love, to convey His message? Yes, that makes sense. Actually, the Bible does say somewhere about even the stones would cry out if ..sorry, can;t remember exact scripture. And of course, he even used a donkey once! Yes, He always finds a way, doesn't He?

Yes!

Just remember that He even went so far as to kick someone off their horse and make them blind for a few days!