yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Everything born of the flesh is flesh, and profits nothing. Just being born (a human), means someone is of the flesh. They/we/ all start separated from God.
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Everything born of the flesh is flesh, and profits nothing. Just being born (a human), means someone is of the flesh. They/we/ all start separated from God.Either way, people do sinful things because something has affected them.
Hi, I have a BA in Psychology and a Masters in Divinity, so I have often dealt with this issue.As we've progressed with the "science" of psychology, it seems we may have realised a great deal of sinful action is the result of some form of mental illness in human beings. Some people have chemical imbalances, but others appear to do what they do due to issues related in their upbringing, a tragedy that happened to them, or something that hurt them. (I frame all this under 'illness' here). Either way, people do sinful things because something has affected them.
However, is this view of sin biblical? Is there space to explore this within a biblical framework? Or is this idea merely a human construct designed to make excuses for us? And if so, how do we stop doing the things we perhaps even don't want to do but feel compelled to do?
I think this is an interesting and relevant discussion for today.
As we've progressed with the "science" of psychology, it seems we may have realised a great deal of sinful action is the result of some form of mental illness in human beings. Some people have chemical imbalances, but others appear to do what they do due to issues related in their upbringing, a tragedy that happened to them, or something that hurt them.
As we've progressed with the "science" of psychology,
it seems we may have realised a great deal of sinful action is the result of some form of mental illness in human beings.
Some people have chemical imbalances, but others appear to do what they do due to issues related in their upbringing, a tragedy that happened to them, or something that hurt them.
Either way, people do sinful things because something has affected them.
However, is this view of sin biblical?
And if so, how do we stop doing the things we perhaps even don't want to do but feel compelled to do?
Some people do not believe mental illness is separate from spiritual illness. I think that view is too simple. But saying that mental illness has no spiritual connection is even worse.I am confused; are people saying mental illness isn't real? Or simply not an excuse for bad behavior?
Any excuse works for the guilty.As we've progressed with the "science" of psychology, it seems we may have realised a great deal of sinful action is the result of some form of mental illness in human beings. Some people have chemical imbalances, but others appear to do what they do due to issues related in their upbringing, a tragedy that happened to them, or something that hurt them. (I frame all this under 'illness' here). Either way, people do sinful things because something has affected them.
No. And it doesn’t work in real life either. No teacher, boss, judge, friend let’s one behave as they feel like excusing it as not their fault.However, is this view of sin biblical?
Doubt it. Truth and lies don’t mix. One never finds understanding by trying to combine them.Is there space to explore this within a biblical framework?
YesOr is this idea merely a human construct designed to make excuses for us?
Stop excusing behavior with words like “feel compelled”And if so, how do we stop doing the things we perhaps even don't want to do but feel compelled to do?
Spin doctors will find ways to make the guilty feel better. It’s popular.I think this is an interesting and relevant discussion for today.
I think the trend is to excuse all bad behavior removing responsiblity and choice from the perpetrator. Doesn’t mean there isn’t real mental illness. But it does remove the possibility of choices the perpetrator made being responsible for both their mental illness and it’s outcome.I am confused; are people saying mental illness isn't real? Or simply not an excuse for bad behavior?
As we've progressed with the "science" of psychology, it seems we may have realised a great deal of sinful action is the result of some form of mental illness in human beings. Some people have chemical imbalances, but others appear to do what they do due to issues related in their upbringing, a tragedy that happened to them, or something that hurt them. (I frame all this under 'illness' here). Either way, people do sinful things because something has affected them.
However, is this view of sin biblical? Is there space to explore this within a biblical framework? Or is this idea merely a human construct designed to make excuses for us? And if so, how do we stop doing the things we perhaps even don't want to do but feel compelled to do?
I think this is an interesting and relevant discussion for today.
THis is very sad and I see for the first time the joy that the Enemy has robbed from those who believe this. There can be no pleasure in doing that which God asked a man to do with the simple delight of knowing it was pure and untouched by sin for a moment in one's life. Everything has to be thought of as tainted with sin because for the Calvinist, sin is not "something outside of you that wants in and you must master it" as God described sin but something you are from birth. They enemy is robbing my brethren in this theology and it makes me sad. (I do more than just feel sad but not at this moment.)I believe that even within every good deed a person can do, there is sin at work. The doctrine of Total Depravity doesn't mean that every person has sunk as low as it gets, but that sin is pervasive in all we do, as unbelievers. We may be able to comply with the commands of God, and even succeed better than most believers, but compliance is not the same as obedience.
Therefore, at least according to Reformed theology, the degree of one's sinfulness does not compare with the degree of another's, and indeed Scripture says that if we fail in any one point of the law we are guilty of breaking the whole law. Therefore, the cause of sin is irrelevant, "If I sin, *I* sin."
I have little doubt you honestly feel concerning us the things you describe (and refrain from describing). But the joy is in the Lord. Certainly there is a kind of joy in well-doing, and you may consider that to be a thing in-and-of-itself, but it is not --it is the work of God, even when enjoyed by a non-believer.THis is very sad and I see for the first time the joy that the Enemy has robbed from those who believe this. There can be no pleasure in doing that which God asked a man to do with the simple delight of knowing it was pure and untouched by sin for a moment in one's life. Everything has to be thought of as tainted with sin because for the Calvinist, sin is not "something outside of you that wants in and you must master it" as God described sin but something you are from birth. They enemy is robbing my brethren in this theology and it makes me sad. (I do more than just feel sad but not at this moment.)
There is so much that doesn’t match the truth in this I don’t know where to begin. Let’s just leave this one.I have little doubt you honestly feel concerning us the things you describe (and refrain from describing). But the joy is in the Lord. Certainly there is a kind of joy in well-doing, and you may consider that to be a thing in-and-of-itself, but it is not --it is the work of God, even when enjoyed by a non-believer.
Your thoughts are "it must be" --i.e. your logical conclusions based on your conception of what we think and your presuppositions of what we have missed. But you do not understand what we think nor know what we have gladly forsaken.
I wish I knew how to get across to you the notion that we are not separately from God anything to commend ourselves to him. We do not accomplish anything for him without HIS doing it. We do not add to him what he is not.
There is plenty of reason to think that we are not even complete beings until we see him as he is. WHY, then should we take on ourselves the ability to do something, whether by duty or pleasure or both, apart from Christ? And WHY should we consider it a pleasure to have added to God's work?
What you are saying reminds me of an Atheist who said something like, "Sorry, but such self-debasing, lap-doggish worship is simply degrading". You seem to want to enjoy God, but at arms length. It is almost as if YOU want to be in charge of the relationship. "The bed is too short, the blanket too narrow to wrap around yourself."
"Apart from me you can do nothing."
I agree wholeheartedly. This applies also in doctrine against the notion that there is such a thing as 'hidden sin'. If sin affects even one member of the body of Christ, it affects the whole, and indeed it affects all of creation. Sin is a horror, 'cosmic treason', as David in his awful sin of murder, adultery, and indirectly, even blasphemy as leader of the nation of Israel, says, "against Thee only have I sinned".I see this in two different ways. The first is personal, as I have been diagnosed with bipolar disorder and find many of the treatments effective in mitigating the symptoms. Yet at the same time the greatest instance of spiritual warfare I have experienced has been in a mental hospital and it was clear that many of those suffering from a variety of conditions either willingly or through passivity have become plagued with evil spirits.
When it comes to causes, the issue comes down to how sin is often viewed. More often than not it's assigned a spiritual/moral value and thought to be intangible. Yet sin physically changes things, and perpetually living in sin and thinking about sin changes the physical structures of the brain as well as leading to living in a physical environment in which sin is encouraged. So the physical/medical condition is caused by the spiritual condition but that causation does not mean it is less real or that just treating the spiritual condition will make it go away. Sin has effects that we often forget about that go well beyond the direct sphere.
Everything has to be thought of as tainted with sin because for the Calvinist, sin is not "something outside of you that wants in and you must master it" as God described sin but something you are from birth.
There is so much that doesn’t match the truth in this I don’t know where to begin. Let’s just leave this one.
Which isn't even a "Calvinist" doctrine to begin with, but simply a Biblical one.
Total Depravity Verse List | Travis Carden
^ All these verses together. Not even sure I could copypaste them all into one post. But yeah, sin really is something you are from birth. Otherwise, you're saying there's some part of you that isn't a sinner.
"We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we're sinners."
The quote is not from the Bible because that is not a Biblical view so you have to use what a man says instead. It’s a theology to relief man of guilt from what he did. Sin is not his fault.Which isn't even a "Calvinist" doctrine to begin with, but simply a Biblical one.
Total Depravity Verse List | Travis Carden
^ All these verses together. Not even sure I could copypaste them all into one post. But yeah, sin really is something you are from birth. Otherwise, you're saying there's some part of you that isn't a sinner.
"We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we're sinners."
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