Memory

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Is it possible to have a sense of self if you are unable to form memories?

Can consciousness exist without the ability to form memories?

 

[Gottservant]

I will test this in my meditation for you.

I will let you know if I get anything.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Is it possible to have a sense of self if you are unable to form memories?

Good question! My sense of it is no.

Can consciousness exist without the ability to form memories?

I would think so.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Paradoxum]

No memory at all? So I wouldn't know what I had done half a second ago? In that case it might be impossible to function.

If you have absolutely no memory at all I'd suspect that you wouldn't have fully formed thoughts or experiences, and wouldn't have time to compare yourself to the external world to feel a sense of self.

 

[Received]

'Tis an interesting question.

 

[Davian]

Is it possible to have a sense of self if you are unable to form memories?

Based on what I have read of Metzinger, you do need to remember being you. The you of right now is based on what you remember of you earlier today, and of you yesterday, etc.

Being No One with Thomas Metzinger - YouTube

Can consciousness exist without the ability to form memories?

Perhaps. If consciousness is an emergent process of the brain to aid in the processing of sensory inputs, then it would be a definite handicap, and entirely dependant on what memories you did have to work with.

Are you referring to the loss of the ability to form memories, short term or long term? Or to a brain that never developed the ability to form memories?

 

[Davian]

I will test this in my meditation for you.

I will let you know if I get anything.

Excellent. Be sure to take some video to show when you get back.

 

[Gottservant]

Is it possible to have a sense of self if you are unable to form memories?

Can consciousness exist without the ability to form memories?

Ok, I meditated on it and this is what I learned:

-your memory gives you your sense of who are you are, what you've become, what you are doing and why you are doing it
-your memory is deformable, meaning you can stop remembering one thing and you will still remember a bunch of others, its like multitasking for the brain only its not something you have to consciously control
-even if you don't want to remember anything, your spirit will die if you don't remember something
-probably people with things like alzheimers still remember quite a bit, its just that they don't construct those memories into coherent responses to life any more
-your memory is basically defined by two things, orientation and configuration
-probably those people with things like alzheimers are confusing orientation and configuration too much, so their output doesn't line up with how they would normally want to act
-you can achieve a living memory, which is one that grows with changes in your life to keep your memory fresh
=Jesus on the cross is a living memory
-power for memory, is more that you have the strength to remember (not that you actually remember something in particular)

Hope that helps (it helped me)

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Good question! My sense of it is no.

Do you know why you think that?

I would think so.

In what way?

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Are you referring to the loss of the ability to form memories, short term or long term? Or to a brain that never developed the ability to form memories?

I think I am referring to a brain that never developed the ability to form memories. The loss of the ability is essentially what Alzheimer's is, right?

I think people with Alzheimer's still have a sense of self and are still conscious…although they can still usually form short-term memories. If you whittled away their memories to the point where they literally could not remember anything beyond 0.5 seconds, then all they could live on are the things they remember from their childhood or younger years (often people with Alzheimer's can still clearly remember things from long ago, just not more recent events). They would just be living in the past which would be incredibly disorienting and seems like it would seriously damage your sense of self and identity and relationship with the world.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Do you know why you think that?

For what it is worth, a sense of self strikes me as something that is dependent on memory -- on a narrative of who you are that you have formed over time. If you have no memories whatsoever, how are you going to form that narrative? You would perpetually be wondering what that narrative is.

In what way?

Consciousness is simply awareness, and that isn't dependent on memories. It is dependent on the functioning of the senses, plus whatever thoughts or feelings one may be experiencing. I don't see how a lack of memory would matter here.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[quatona]

Is it possible to have a sense of self if you are unable to form memories?

Probably countless senses of self - like, one new one each moment.

Can consciousness exist without the ability to form memories?

I suspect it´s very different from what we´d call "consciousness".

 

[Gottservant]

I think I am referring to a brain that never developed the ability to form memories. The loss of the ability is essentially what Alzheimer's is, right?

I think people with Alzheimer's still have a sense of self and are still conscious…although they can still usually form short-term memories. If you whittled away their memories to the point where they literally could not remember anything beyond 0.5 seconds, then all they could live on are the things they remember from their childhood or younger years (often people with Alzheimer's can still clearly remember things from long ago, just not more recent events). They would just be living in the past which would be incredibly disorienting and seems like it would seriously damage your sense of self and identity and relationship with the world.

Your sense of self would probably not grow very fast with alzheimers, or it would grow but in meaningless ways.

I think its strange that you would tie consciousness with memory though, wouldn't that be memoriness or something?

 

[Davian]

I think I am referring to a brain that never developed the ability to form memories. The loss of the ability is essentially what Alzheimer's is, right?

I think people with Alzheimer's still have a sense of self and are still conscious…although they can still usually form short-term memories. If you whittled away their memories to the point where they literally could not remember anything beyond 0.5 seconds, then all they could live on are the things they remember from their childhood or younger years (often people with Alzheimer's can still clearly remember things from long ago, just not more recent events). They would just be living in the past which would be incredibly disorienting and seems like it would seriously damage your sense of self and identity and relationship with the world.

Alzheimer's is just one of many problems that can occur with memory. I just listened to an old Radiolab episode on a delusional disorder called Capgras.

Do I Know You? - Radiolab

As for a (human) brain that never developed the ability to form memories, I do not think it would amount to much. I think that consciousness, as most of us experience it, emerges from complexity. A brain without a lifetime of memories (even that of a small child) might only be able to walk its body around and (maybe) not walk into walls, presuming that the cause of the memory problem did not include other complications.

Did you have an example that your question might apply to?

 

[Chesterton]

I think I am referring to a brain that never developed the ability to form memories. The loss of the ability is essentially what Alzheimer's is, right?

I think people with Alzheimer's still have a sense of self and are still conscious…although they can still usually form short-term memories. If you whittled away their memories to the point where they literally could not remember anything beyond 0.5 seconds, then all they could live on are the things they remember from their childhood or younger years (often people with Alzheimer's can still clearly remember things from long ago, just not more recent events). They would just be living in the past which would be incredibly disorienting and seems like it would seriously damage your sense of self and identity and relationship with the world.

I often wonder about my mom's sense of self and of her surroundings. She has Alzheimer's which has gradually grown very severe. She really has no long, medium or short-term memory, but yet must have some long-term memory because she can still talk,, which means she can remember some words. Years ago I could ask her to repeat a word and she might do it up 'til about 5 seconds later, then it got to 1 second, and nowadays she usually won't repeat the word at all, or says a different word, because (I suppose) she doesn't even understand the request. But she's not anything like vegetative. She can walk and talk and laugh and attempt jokes (which usually don't make sense). In fact, she's very charming to be around; people love her. But I really wonder what goes on in her mind.

 

[Gottservant]

The mind was what was there, before you started to wonder.

 

[Davian]

The mind was what was there, before you started to wonder.

The mind was a ham and cheese sandwich, before you went to the deli.

Let's try to leave the derails until later in the thread.

 

[juvenissun]

Is it possible to have a sense of self if you are unable to form memories?

Can consciousness exist without the ability to form memories?

Memory is a chemical process. Any chemical process takes time to start, to peak and to fade.

If your memory sustained 1 minute, then you may feel yourself for a few seconds. The repetition of this process may give you some kind of self consciousness, even it is not continuous.

I believe some insects work this way.