Meltdown alert at Japan reactor

[DeathMagus]

even this japanese reactor is far safer than the one in chernobyl.

Is there any reason to believe it's not state-of-the-art?

 

[Staccato]

Is there any reason to believe it's not state-of-the-art?

Well, it's 40 years old, but even back then the Japanese were building reactors safer than Chernobyl ever was. AFAIK Chernobyl did not possess a specifically built containment structure.

The kicker in all this though? Several reactors at Fukushima Daiichi were due to be decommissioned permanently on 27th March 2011 anyways! So they were (are) at the very end of their lifespan, and they're not holding up too badly all things considering.

EDIT: Someone's put together a very nice table at Wikipedia actually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_I_nuclear_accidents#Reactor_status_summary

 

[Glass*Soul]

The injured were those injured in the hydrogen explosions. The radiation exposure, again, is something that sounds incredibly scary until you go through how much they were exposed to and the equivalencies.

Your post, to which I was replying, did not include the qualification that there were no casualties due to radiation but simply that there were no casualties, which was not correct.

It's just like how people are stating things like "radiation 8 times normal has leaked out!" without explaining it's radioactive nitrogen that basically stops being radioactive within seconds.

My understanding is that we do not have detailed information as to the exact makeup of the radiation.

The big problem is our news companies and their desire for ratings. What gets more, calm rational scientist explaining why everything really is actually fairly much over... or wild rabid anti-nuclear fanatic raving about how the west coast is going to become uninhabitable?

Well, neither would be true. I have heard several calm, rational physicists and medical experts discussing the situation over the last few days, and none of them have suggested at any point that everything is actually fairly much over.

What network have you been watching?

Much like how 3-Mile Island only produced 1 casualty (Edward Teller, who had a heart attack because of the media hysteria as he was working 20 hour days at an advanced age to try and dispel ridiculous anti-nuclear humbuggery), this incident will be made into something ridiculous by groups that seek to profit from tragedy and create propaganda against a viable energy form that's emission free and has one of the lowest (by far) casualty counts of any major energy production methods.

The remaining 50 workers have been evacuated from the plant due to the radiation levels. The water levels are dropping in the spent fuel pool in reactor 4. There is reason to suspect that the the containment vessel is cracked but no one can get in there to check.

The Prime Minister is urging all citizens within 30 miles to stay indoors.

Luckily the winds are blowing the radioactivity out to sea and will probably mostly continue to do so. (I point this out because if this were taking place in one of the nuclear plants currently located on fault lines on the United States' west coast, it would be rare that the prevailing winds would blow the radioactivity out to sea.)

 

[Drekkan85]

Your post, to which I was replying, did not include the qualification that there were no casualties due to radiation but simply that there were no casualties, which was not correct.

Then I should have qualified as being about radiation.

My understanding is that we do not have detailed information as to the exact makeup of the radiation.

Except we know what we would see in terms of composition if there had been major containment breach. We also have information on how BWR work - and it's outlined on the site I linked to repeatedly (which also updates daily on the situation). Based on how the reactor works, how radiation has been measured in occasional spikes and then dropping to near nothing, and given the way explosions have been occurring we can infer the composition of the radiation.

Well, neither would be true. I have heard several calm, rational physicists and medical experts discussing the situation over the last few days, and none of them have suggested at any point that everything is actually fairly much over.

Except we have information on the temperature levels and the shut down levels going on at the moment.

What network have you been watching?

None. The problem with you is you have been watching network media. I've been reading information put out by actual nuclear engineers and scientists. Networks have an incentive to be sensationalist and to put out things like "10 worst case scenarios".

The remaining 50 workers have been evacuated from the plant due to the radiation levels. The water levels are dropping in the spent fuel pool in reactor 4. There is reason to suspect that the the containment vessel is cracked but no one can get in there to check.

There's information on this coming out now that I will be commenting on tomorrow when I've had a nice sleep and more information is available. I have a potential explanation already, but until I can firmly source it (and that's unlikely given the hour and most sources and papers I use having their writers based on an Eastern time schedule) I won't post potentially misleading information. That already puts me a leg up ethically on a number of major media sources out there.

The Prime Minister is urging all citizens within 30 miles to stay indoors.

Probably wise for a whole variety of reasons - want to prevent public panic, want to prevent people from wandering around in a bacterially and otherwise ruined area that was devastated by tsunami and earthquake. Plus if there is even minor radiation leakage better to be safe than sorry.

Luckily the winds are blowing the radioactivity out to sea and will probably mostly continue to do so. (I point this out because if this were taking place in one of the nuclear plants currently located on fault lines on the United States' west coast, it would be rare that the prevailing winds would blow the radioactivity out to sea.)

The point is that this was literally the worst thing that could possibly happen. It was a plant so old it was due to be retired this month. It was an earthquake of a magnitude never seen before in the region followed by a tsunami far above what was expected. It was a destruction of whole swathes of the protective measures. And STILL the plans are working and the reactors are being shut down.

I'd also point out something stated earlier (or perhaps in another location - I've had this discussion in several places) - the solution isn't to give up a necessary and emissions free energy source. Shutting down construction of new plants means the prolonging of operation of old plants. New plants > old plants.

 

[Glass*Soul]

Then I should have qualified as being about radiation.



Except we know what we would see in terms of composition if there had been major containment breach. We also have information on how BWR work - and it's outlined on the site I linked to repeatedly (which also updates daily on the situation). Based on how the reactor works, how radiation has been measured in occasional spikes and then dropping to near nothing, and given the way explosions have been occurring we can infer the composition of the radiation.



Except we have information on the temperature levels and the shut down levels going on at the moment.



None. The problem with you is you have been watching network media. I've been reading information put out by actual nuclear engineers and scientists. Networks have an incentive to be sensationalist and to put out things like "10 worst case scenarios".

You have been making statements about the media coverage. If you have not watched any media coverage and are simply making up what you image the coverage is like, this explains why your descriptions differ so much from what I have seen.

Luckily we both know from the get go that your representation as to what I have and have not read is made up, as is your perception of my ability to discern whether a person speaking on television is a learned expert vs. an ill informed media personality. You are having a problem with some things I am posting, but this does not translate into "the problem with" me.

There's information on this coming out now that I will be commenting on tomorrow when I've had a nice sleep and more information is available. I have a potential explanation already, but until I can firmly source it (and that's unlikely given the hour and most sources and papers I use having their writers based on an Eastern time schedule) I won't post potentially misleading information. That already puts me a leg up ethically on a number of major media sources out there.

I look forward to your potential explanation.

Probably wise for a whole variety of reasons - want to prevent public panic, want to prevent people from wandering around in a bacterially and otherwise ruined area that was devastated by tsunami and earthquake. Plus if there is even minor radiation leakage better to be safe than sorry.

The point is that this was literally the worst thing that could possibly happen. It was a plant so old it was due to be retired this month. It was an earthquake of a magnitude never seen before in the region followed by a tsunami far above what was expected. It was a destruction of whole swathes of the protective measures. And STILL the plans are working and the reactors are being shut down.

I'd also point out something stated earlier (or perhaps in another location - I've had this discussion in several places) - the solution isn't to give up a necessary and emissions free energy source. Shutting down construction of new plants means the prolonging of operation of old plants. New plants > old plants.

I am sorry. The reactors are not "being shut down." Those that were online were successfully shut down immediately after the earthquake, before the plant lost its generator power due to the tsunami. Reactor #4, which seems to be causing the worst problems right now, was already offline when the the earthquake took place. The problem is that the cooling system has malfunctioned. This is potentially an even worse problem in a pool containing spent rods, as one finds in the upper area of reactor #4, due to the large number of rods and the lack of an inner containment vessel.

The plans are not working. This is is now a level 6 event.

 

[Drekkan85]

You have been making statements about the media coverage. If you have not watched any media coverage and are simply making up what you image the coverage is like, this explains why your descriptions differ so much from what I have seen.

I should remark that what I meant (when not writing past midnight and ready for some sleep) is I've tried watching the cable news media, and put it down in disgust. I've also attempted to get information via newspaper and reading said papers online, but find yet more lack of understanding by lay journalists.

I also see things like at the Huff-Post where they show a picture of devastation (by the earthquake) and go with a headline like "REACTOR CORE EXPOSED!!!!" Creating a link that the reactor caused the devastation. They compound this by starting the story on the reactor, then going into detail about destruction and casualties caused by the earthquake, and then cutting back to the reactor story. This creates an impression first that the reactor caused massive devastation already, then that it was responsible for the casualties etc in the interior story which is really about the earthquake.

At best it's irresponsible journalism.

I look forward to your potential explanation.

I suppose I'll have to wait a little while longer, but indications are that workers were getting ready, and are getting ready to re-enter. Again, a short term spike can be expected if the venting products are nitrogen, noble gases, and other short lived radionuclides. Other potential theories thrown around include instrument error - indicated by the highly localized nature of the spike (the front gate) and some of the methods being used to get readings.

I am sorry. The reactors are not "being shut down." Those that were online were successfully shut down immediately after the earthquake, before the plant lost its generator power due to the tsunami. Reactor #4, which seems to be causing the worst problems right now, was already offline when the the earthquake took place. The problem is that the cooling system has malfunctioned. This is potentially an even worse problem in a pool containing spent rods, as one finds in the upper area of reactor #4, due to the large number of rods and the lack of an inner containment vessel.

The reactors are all now in cold shutdown: Fukushima Nuclear Accident – 16 March update « BraveNewClimate

The plans are not working. This is is now a level 6 event.

And I'd direct you to the above and here: What happened at the Fukushima reactor? - The Tech

 

[Phileas]

Meh, the media coverage of the nuclear situation has been fairly poor and often inaccurate, but that's just what happens when most journalists are arts graduates and sensationalism makes the money. I've found the New Scientist Short Sharp Science has been a pretty good source of news and insight. Some quite interesting stuff on there about the possibility of increased stress on the Tokai Fault resulting in rupture and further earthquakes. The Guardian live blog running at the moment is fairly good, but there have been a few glaring errors (10 sieverts per hour instead of millisieverts), but they're usually corrected pretty quickly.

 

[Glass*Soul]

I should remark that what I meant (when not writing past midnight and ready for some sleep) is I've tried watching the cable news media, and put it down in disgust. I've also attempted to get information via newspaper and reading said papers online, but find yet more lack of understanding by lay journalists.

I also see things like at the Huff-Post where they show a picture of devastation (by the earthquake) and go with a headline like "REACTOR CORE EXPOSED!!!!" Creating a link that the reactor caused the devastation. They compound this by starting the story on the reactor, then going into detail about destruction and casualties caused by the earthquake, and then cutting back to the reactor story. This creates an impression first that the reactor caused massive devastation already, then that it was responsible for the casualties etc in the interior story which is really about the earthquake.

At best it's irresponsible journalism.

I agree that much of the coverage has been horrible. One news link I clicked on yesterday had a sentence giving an estimation of the number of dead dangling on the end of a paragraph describing the reactor problems, giving the odd impression that it was the reactor problems that had killed 10,000 rather than the quake and tsunami. Later that day they corrected the placement of the sentence without any notation that they had edited.

I suppose I'll have to wait a little while longer, but indications are that workers were getting ready, and are getting ready to re-enter. Again, a short term spike can be expected if the venting products are nitrogen, noble gases, and other short lived radionuclides. Other potential theories thrown around include instrument error - indicated by the highly localized nature of the spike (the front gate) and some of the methods being used to get readings.

At this time, I understand, they have re-entered. I am quite worried about them. According to the New York times today:

Five workers have died since the quake and 22 more have been injured for various reasons, while two are missing.

Here is my source: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/16/world/asia/16workers.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha2

The reactors are all now in cold shutdown: Fukushima Nuclear Accident – 16 March update « BraveNewClimate



And I'd direct you to the above and here: What happened at the Fukushima reactor? - The Tech

Thank you for the links. My source for the level 6 comment was the ISIS. I should have provided a link, but like you I was doing late night posting. this was my source:

Institute for Science and International Security › ISIS Reports › Japan › ISIS Statement on Events at Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Site in Japan

Here is a link to reports from the IAEA: IAEA Update on Japan Earthquake

According to MSNBC, the plan to use helicopters to drop water onto the reactors has been suspended due to radiation.

 

[Glass*Soul]

Meh, the media coverage of the nuclear situation has been fairly poor and often inaccurate, but that's just what happens when most journalists are arts graduates and sensationalism makes the money. I've found the New Scientist Short Sharp Science has been a pretty good source of news and insight. Some quite interesting stuff on there about the possibility of increased stress on the Tokai Fault resulting in rupture and further earthquakes. The Guardian live blog running at the moment is fairly good, but there have been a few glaring errors (10 sieverts per hour instead of millisieverts), but they're usually corrected pretty quickly.

Yes. We are getting more news these days but often of mixed quality. Due to my odd work hours I was able to watch the initial coverage of the quake on MSNBC. Though I was seeing a tsunami sporting flaming debris in startling footage bare moments after the fact, at the same time the anchors and staff were fumbling to determine the time difference between Tokyo and New York, reporting several incorrect and conflicting time differences in the process. I remember when newsrooms sported actual clocks showing the time in Tokyo, New York, Paris and a number of other key locations. This is apparently now passe.

I also do not like the tendency of online newspapers to correct inaccuracies without an edit line.