Melchizedek and Michael

[tigersnare]

This goes back to hermeneutics.....errr how we read and interpret scripture...not a particularly easy thing to teach, so I would imagine not a very easy thing to learn...

 

[MAC]

You are right, it is not easy but it is in the word of God.

We can accept Matthew as the Lion

We can accept Mark as the Servant

We can accept Luke as the perfect Human

We can accept John as an eagle, exalted and divine but they won’t accept Michael the Prince as Christ!

 

[FreeinChrist]

You are right, it is not easy but it is in the word of God.

We can accept Matthew as the Lion

We can???? The Lion of Judah is Jesus. Satan is compared to a roaring lion who is seeking to devour us. Exactly how is Matthew described as a Lion?

We can accept Mark as the Servant

We can accept Mark as a servant of God. Are you trying to imply more?

We can accept Luke as the perfect Human

?? Exactly how? Luke, himself, was a human being born in original sin who needed a Saviour. If you are refering to the book of Luke as showing us Jesus as the perfect human, that would be acceptable, though it is not stated that way.

We can accept John as an eagle, exalted and divine

WHO believes John is divine and exalted? Your statement implies that some view John as exalted over other men. I'd agree that the book of John shows Jesus as exalted over men. John. himself, is not.

but they won’t accept Michael the Prince as Christ!

So explain it. If Michael is Jesus, why did Michael dare not bring a railing judgement on Satan over the body of Moses? Why did Michael need to call on God? We learn from Hebrews that the world was made through Jesus, that Jesus is the 'exact representation of His nature', superior to angels and that Jesus 'upholds all things by the word of His power'. (Hebrews 1) Hadn't God (this includes Jesus) already made a judgment on Satan? Didn't Satan lose his place in heaven? So why would Jesus (IF Michael is Jesus) dare not bring a railing judgment on Satan over the body of Moses?

The verse in Jude just shows that neither we or angels (even Michael the archangel) cannot put Satan out of commission, only God - who is one God in three Persons. I don't see how anyone can believe in the Trinity and then also believe that Michael the archangel is Christ. Scripture , when the pieces are put together, show Michael as an angelic being, one of many, who watches out for Daniel's people.

 

[danceforjoy]

Thinking about it, yes! He is One of the chief princes. We have the Father as One of, we have the Holy Spirit as One of and Christ as One of. The whole deity is in place to me when I read "Michael, One of the chief princes"

Wow, amazing, I always tended to believe that way. Mac, can I be your Buddy and student?

>unless God has all of your heart, the devil has a part<

 

[danceforjoy]

We can???? The Lion of Judah is Jesus. Satan is compared to a roaring lion who is seeking to devour us. Exactly how is Matthew described as a Lion?
We can accept Mark as a servant of God. Are you trying to imply more?

[

So explain it. If Michael is Jesus, why did Michael dare not bring a railing judgement on Satan over the body of Moses? Why did Michael need to call on God? We learn from Hebrews that the world was made through Jesus, that Jesus is the 'exact representation of His nature', superior to angels and that Jesus 'upholds all things by the word of His power'. (Hebrews 1) Hadn't God (this includes Jesus) already made a judgment on Satan? Didn't Satan lose his place in heaven? So why would Jesus (IF Michael is Jesus) dare not bring a railing judgment on Satan over the body of Moses?

[]
FreeinChrist,
please remember that Satan is the accuser of the Brethren and not Christ. This is the very reason it says that Michael did not bring accusation against Satan. Jesus came not condemn but to save. At the very end but, Our Lord will be the Judge.
If Michael means in place of God, then Christ's sacrifice is not merely human but divine just as He is.


>Unless God has all of your heart, the devil has a part<

 

[FreeinChrist]

[]
FreeinChrist,
please remember that Satan is the accuser of the Brethren and not Christ. This is the very reason it says that Michael did not bring accusation against Satan. Jesus came not condemn but to save. At the very end but, Our Lord will be the Judge.
If Michael means in place of God, then Christ's sacrifice is not merely human but divine just as He is.

Jesus came not to condemn but to save...WHO? Only mankind. There is no help for fallen angels. They face only condemnation.
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;


The angels who fell, including Satan, are already already condemned.

So your point that Jesus came to save and not condemn makes no sense here.
1. When Michael faced Satan over the body of Moses, it was a few thousand years before Jesus came to save.
2. Satan already has been given a railing judgement by God - he lost his place in heaven as the anointed cherub who covers. Why, IF Michael is Christ, wouldn't he pronounce a railing judgment over the body? If He were Christ - aka God - he already did.
3. In contending over the body of Moses, if Michael was Christ, why was there any contention at all? Or do you think that Satan's power is equal to Christ's? Check the verse:
Jud 1:9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
4. Obviously from this verse, God could rebuke Satan. If Christ is part of the Godhead, why couldn't He rebuke Satan?

"If Michael means in place of God" Gabriel means 'mighty like God'...do you think Gabriel is Christ, too?

 

[MAC]

These quoted notes have a better word of what I am trying to say.




[font=Arial,Helvetica]12:7b[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Who is Michael?[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica] "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." (Rev. 12:7, 8)[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica] Michael is not mentioned often the the Bible but, by comparing texts, we can learn his more common identity. We begin with the little book of Jude:[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica] "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst [dared] not bring against him a railing [slanderous, 1306a2] accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." (Jude 9). Jude's purpose in this verse is to condemn those who teach grace as license jude04 and who criticize authority jude08. He takes the dispute with the devil as an example, revealing other information that is of particular interest to us. So Michael is also the archangel. The prefix "arch-" means to be "first" or "reigning over." This agrees with verse 7 where Michael is commander of the angels re1207. (Also 1pe0321f)[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica] Next let's look at a verse describing the archangel. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout [command], with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" (1 Thess. 4:16)[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica] So the archangel, whom we saw in Jude as also Michael, calls the dead to life. Only one person has been given that authority. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (Matt. 5:25-29)[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica] "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" (John 11:25)[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica] "I [Jesus] am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell [the grave] and of death." (Rev. 1:18)[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica] In other words, only Jesus Christ will call the dead, so he is the archangel in 1st Thessalonians and He is Michael who calls Moses to life in Jude. And He is Michael who, with His angels, cast Satan out of heaven! Compare Song 5:10 which harmonizes with our seeing Him as head of the angels.[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica] In Joshua 5:15, Christ identifies Himself as the captain of the Lord's host. He was the captain of the angels of heaven. They are the Lord's army (Rev. 19:14). Furthermore, He would not have accepted Joshua's worship if He had been an ordinary angel (see Joshua 5). Thus again He is the archangel, Michael.[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica]But angels are created. How is Christ an angel?[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica] Without considering the explanation above, this is a logical argument. Christ was with the Father from the beginning (John 1:1). He is the Creator, with the Father, not the created. Beyond these concepts, which God has revealed, we have not been told and could not understand correctly. Speculation is not only fruitless because we must guess but it is not for us to indulge in. "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." (Deut. 29:29). We do know the simple concepts we have just discussed and can accept them.[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica] Christ is a human because He took on humanity to save us. This does not prevent Him from also being divine. We do not know very much about His relation to the angels, but He was one with them and he was their commander. We cannot rule out the possibility that He also took their nature as He has ours. Lucifer wanted Christ's job as he tried to work his way up to higher positions in the government of the universe (Isa. 14:13).[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica] The word for angel in Greek and Hebrew also means messenger. So Christ, the messenger of the covenant in Mal. 3, is also the angel of the covenant. We see Him as an angel in Rev. 10:1, too, but that's beyond the scope of our study.[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica] See a summary explanation of Michael on another page.[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica]12:7c[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Sidelight on death and the resurrection[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica]First here is the verse we are discussing:[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica] "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil, he disputed about the body of Moses, durst [dared] not bring against him a railing [slanderous] accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." (Jude 9)[/font] [font=Arial,Helvetica] Why would Michael dispute with the devil over the body of Moses? Satan doesn't want anyone resurrected. How he must have trembled when our Lord arose from the tomb! The Jewish leaders who sent Jesus to the cross were clearly inspired by Satan. Their idea of sealing the tomb (Matt. 27:64) was likewise inspired by him. He claimed victory and wanted it secure. Their excuse that the disciples, who were hiding from them, might steal the body is hardly convincing. (John 20:19).[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica] Many who read these lines assume that the inner person escapes the body at death and goes, in spirit form, to heaven or hell. Although we find no support for this idea in Scripture 1411g, I respect those who have not understood. Seeing the faithful ones sleeping in their graves and not going to heaven before we all do helps us realize that Christ was asserting authority over His sleeping saints which Satan naturally opposes he1139. This authority would be confirmed by Christ at Calvary and by breaking the seals as the worthy Lamb 0501.[/font]

 

[FreeinChrist]

[font=Arial,Helvetica]Who is Michael?[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica]"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." (Rev. 12:7, 8)[/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica]Michael is not mentioned often the the Bible but, by comparing texts, we can learn his more common identity. We begin with the little book of Jude:[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst [dared] not bring against him a railing [slanderous, 1306a2] accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." (Jude 9). Jude's purpose in this verse is to condemn those who teach grace as license jude04 and who criticize authority jude08. He takes the dispute with the devil as an example, revealing other information that is of particular interest to us. So Michael is also the archangel. The prefix "arch-" means to be "first" or "reigning over." This agrees with verse 7 where Michael is commander of the angels re1207. (Also 1pe0321f)[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]Next let's look at a verse describing the archangel. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout [command], with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" (1 Thess. 4:16)[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]So the archangel, whom we saw in Jude as also Michael, calls the dead to life. [/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]

[/font]

Big problems here that I see with the reasoning. One, I Thes. 4:16, the Lord descends with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God - it is not saying He is the archangel. The writer is really adding to scripture here. Two, where in Jude does Michael call the dead to life? Contending over the body ('soma' - a corporeal body, the material flesh) is not calling one to life! Do you believe that Moses was resurrected at that point? Can't be - Jesus was the first to be resurrected to a glorified body. Three, Jude's purpose is showing that neither man nor angels can put the devil out of commission, but his day will come. And my question remains - why would God (Christ) dare not accuse Satan?


[font=Arial,Helvetica]

In other words, only Jesus Christ will call the dead, so he is the archangel in 1st Thessalonians and He is Michael who calls Moses to life in Jude. And He is Michael who, with His angels, cast Satan out of heaven! Compare Song 5:10 which harmonizes with our seeing Him as head of the angels.[/font]

? Let's look at Song of Solomen
Sgs 5:9 "What kind of beloved is your beloved, O most beautiful among women? What kind of beloved is your beloved, That thus you adjure us?"Sgs 5:10 "My beloved is dazzling and ruddy, Outstanding among ten thousand.Sgs 5:11 "His head is {like} gold, pure gold; His locks are {like} clusters of dates {And} black as a raven.Sgs 5:12 "His eyes are like doves Beside streams of water, Bathed in milk, {And} reposed in {their} setting.
The best description of Song of Solomon I have found is one that describes this book as showing that God intended for married couples to enjoy the expression of their love. While the Jews tend to allegorize this book as the relationship between God and Israel, and Christians in the past centuries allegorized it as showing the relationship between Christ and the church, its erotic character fits better as what God intended for married couples.

But one thing is for sure - there is no mention of Michael in Song of Solomon, nor does the passage above support the contention that Michael is Christ. Not in the least!

[font=Arial,Helvetica]In Joshua 5:15, Christ identifies Himself as the captain of the Lord's host. He was the captain of the angels of heaven. They are the Lord's army (Rev. 19:14). Furthermore, He would not have accepted Joshua's worship if He had been an ordinary angel (see Joshua 5). Thus again He is the archangel, Michael.[/font]

But...Joshua 5:15 does not indicate that the person's name is Michael! To say so is to add to scripture! Let's look at it:
Jos 5:13 Now it came about when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand, and Joshua went to him and said to him, "Are you for us or for our adversaries?"Jos 5:14 He said, "No; rather I indeed come now {as} captain of the host of the LORD." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him, "What has my lord to say to his servant?"Jos 5:15 The captain of the LORD'S host said to Joshua, "Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so.
I belive this is preIncarnate Christ, a Christophany. But it does not say it is Michael. I believe there are many times when we see a preIncarnate Christ in the OT...including the one who is describe and is talking in Daniel 10:
Dan 10:5 I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a certain man dressed in linen, whose waist was girded with {a belt of} pure gold of Uphaz.Dan 10:6 His body also {was} like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a tumult.


And He says:
Dan 10:12 Then he said to me, "Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart on understanding {this} and on humbling yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to your words.Dan 10:13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.Dan 10:14 "Now I have come to give you an understanding of what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision pertains to the days yet {future.}"


[font=Arial,Helvetica]Michael, an angel, a created being, "one of the chief princes." [/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica]Christ is a human because He took on humanity to save us. This does not prevent Him from also being divine. We do not know very much about His relation to the angels, but He was one with them and he was their commander. We cannot rule out the possibility that He also took their nature as He has ours.[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]

[/font]
Really??? We can't can't? sigh...
Hebrews 2:16 - For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham.

[font=Arial,Helvetica]Read Hebrews 1 and 2![/font]


[font=Arial,Helvetica]I do not have time to address the rest right now. I really, really think you need to get away from dogma of some group, who add to the written word and stick with what scripture actually says! [/font]

 

[FreeinChrist]

? I have no idea why this is all in bold when it isn't when i edit it.

Okay, I dealt with my daughter and now have alittle more time before I need to sleep.

[font=Arial,Helvetica] Lucifer wanted Christ's job as he tried to work his way up to higher positions in the government of the universe (Isa. 14:13).[/font]

Isa 14:12 "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!Isa 14:13 "But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north.Isa 14:14 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'Isa 14:15 "Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit.

One, this passage is not about Lucifer 'working his way up' the ladder of heavenly government! Provide scripture, please, where Lucifer was in a lower position and got a higher position. All we are told is that he was the anointed angel who covers (like the cherubim over the ark), and he fell.

Eze 28:13 "You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.Eze 28:14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you {there.} You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.Eze 28:15 "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.Eze 28:16 "By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.Eze 28:17 "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you.

Whether it is since the fall that Satan desires to be the most high, or before the fall, that is all that Isaiah 14 says. No indication that he worked his way up. And we do see that unrighteousness was found in Satan, and he is no longer the aninted cherub who covers. He lost his position - sounds like judgemnt by God to me.
The person you are quoting sounds like Ellen White. She claims that God forgave Satan over and over in her book, "the Great Controversy." She doesn't give any biblical support for it though.

[font=Arial,Helvetica]First here is the verse we are discussing:[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil, he disputed about the body of Moses, durst [dared] not bring against him a railing [slanderous] accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." (Jude 9)[/font] [font=Arial,Helvetica]Why would Michael dispute with the devil over the body of Moses? Satan doesn't want anyone resurrected. How he must have trembled when our Lord arose from the tomb! The Jewish leaders who sent Jesus to the cross were clearly inspired by Satan. Their idea of sealing the tomb (Matt. 27:64) was likewise inspired by him. He claimed victory and wanted it secure. Their excuse that the disciples, who were hiding from them, might steal the body is hardly convincing. (John 20:19).[/font]

Why isn't it?
Mat 27:63 and said, "Sir, we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I {am to} rise again.'Mat 27:64 "Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure until the third day, otherwise His disciples may come and steal Him away and say to the people, 'He has risen from the dead,' and the last deception will be worse than the first."

[font=Arial,Helvetica]Many who read these lines assume that the inner person escapes the body at death and goes, in spirit form, to heaven or hell. Although we find no support for this idea in Scripture 1411g, I respect those who have not understood.[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica]

[/font]
Yep, this definitely SDA stuff.

Ecc 12:6 {Remember Him} before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed;Ecc 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.


[font=Arial,Helvetica]Act 7:59

They went on stoning Stephen as he called on {the Lord} and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"


[/font]

 

[MAC]

Not only SDA have some of that idea but also Pentecostal, Baptize, Reformed and many others. It is not about what domination it is, is what I am trying to learn through the word of God about Michael.

But what do you think about this;

It's in the Name

First, let's consider the meaning of some words and names. In the Greek New Testament, as compared to the Old Testament, the word "angel" means "messenger," and "arch" means "chief, principle, greatest, or highest." So "archangel" simply means "highest or greatest messenger." The Hebrew name "Michael" means "who is like God" or "Who is like God?" Whether this name is a question, statement, or a challenge will be clear by further study. One angel did profess to be like God. That fallen being is Lucifer, the covering cherub in the heavenly courts who became the devil, Satan, by claiming to "be like the most High" (Isaiah 14:14). In Revelation 12:7 Satan is opposed by "Michael and his angels" and is cast out of heaven.

It is not implausible to assume that if Christ came to earth and became a man in His battle against Satan to save human beings, He might also have identified with the angels to protect them from Satan's evil influence in heaven. In fact, there are several references in Scripture to a mysterious being identified as "the angel of the Lord" before Christ's earthly incarnation. Yet each time He is mentioned there are clues to His identity. Let's review them briefly.

Hagar

After Hagar bore Ishmael to Abraham, she and the barren Sarah could no longer coexist peacefully. Sarah mistreated her now haughty handmaid until Hagar fled into the desert. "And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness" (Genesis 16:7). The angel told Hagar to go back and submit to Sarah, and promised that her son, Ishmael, would be the father of a great nation. When the "angel" disappeared, Hagar, "called the name of the Lord that spake unto her, Thou God seest me" (verse 13). It appears Hagar recognized that the "angel" who had spoken to her was really God.

Abraham

God told Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac, on mount Moriah. Just as he was about to plunge the dagger into his son of promise, the angel of the Lord stopped him. "And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Genesis 22:11, 12).

It is clear that Abraham was offering his son to God and not to a mere angel. "And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, … because thou hast obeyed my voice" (Genesis 22:15-18). In recounting this experience of Abraham in Acts 3:25, Peter also identifies this "angel of the Lord" as God.

Jacob

While fleeing from his angry brother Esau, Jacob had a dream in which God confirmed the covenant of Abraham to him. After receiving assurance that God would be with him and bring him back safely to his home in Canaan, Jacob vowed to return to God a tithe of all his increase. He set up the stone he had been using for a pillow and anointed it with oil to solemnize his vow. Then he named the place Beth-el, or house of God, since God had appeared to him there.

Twenty years later Jacob was on his way back home, not a penniless fugitive, but a wealthy man. God reminded Jacob who had really brought him success. Here's how Jacob recounted the story: "And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I" (Genesis 31:11). In verse 13 this "angel of God" identifies Himself: "I am the God of Beth-el, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me."

Then, when Jacob wrestled with a heavenly being (Genesis 32:22-32), he was given a new name and blessed. Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved" (verse 30). In the New Testament, Jesus is the one who blesses His people and gives them a new name (Matthew 5:3-12; Revelation 2:17). Clearly, the angel of the Lord is Jesus Himself.

When Jacob was on his death bed blessing Joseph's two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, he used the terms "angel" and "God" interchangeably. "God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads" (Genesis 48:15, 16). Once again we see that the angel who redeemed Jacob is another name for our Redeemer, Jesus!

Moses

Moses saw a burning bush that was not consumed. "And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush" (Exodus 3:2). Verse four identifies this angel: "God called unto him out of the midst of the bush." And in verse six He identifies Himself. "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." The angel of the Lord identifies Himself as God!

In his last sermon before he was stoned to death, Stephen agrees with the Exodus account. "And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him, Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" (Acts 7:30-32).

In another instance, the children of Israel were led through the wilderness by God, "And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night" (Exodus 13:21). Moses describes it this way: "And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them" (Exodus 14:19). Again, "the angel of God" is identified as God.

Balaam

In the story of Balaam and his talking donkey, the angel of the Lord again figures prominently. It is this angel who nearly kills the covetous prophet, who is on his way to curse God's people, and saves the donkey from her merciless master (Numbers 22:21-35). After Balaam's close brush with death, "the angel of the Lord said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shall speak" (verse 35). The next chapter reveals who put the words in the prophet's mouth: "And God met Balaam: … And the Lord put a word in Balaam's mouth, and said, Return unto Balak, and thus shalt thou speak" (Numbers 23:4, 5). Here again, "the angel of the Lord" turns out to be God Himself.

Gideon

Gideon had an encounter with the angel of the Lord in the book of Judges. The angel told Gideon that the Lord was with him. Gideon pointed to the oppression of Israel by the Midianites as evidence to the contrary. "And the Lord looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?" (Judges 6:14). Throughout the rest of the narrative, the person speaking to Gideon is identified interchangeably as the Lord, the angel of the Lord, and the angel of God.

Manoah

Samson's mother, the wife of Manoah, was barren. "And the angel of the Lord appeared unto the woman" (Judges 13:3). This angel told her she would bear a son who would deliver the apostate Israelites from their heathen oppressors. She quickly called Manoah, who prayed for another visit from the "man of God." When the angel came the second time, Manoah asked him his name. The King James Version of the Bible says that the angel told Manoah that his name was "Secret," with a margin notation that translates it as "Wonderful." This immediately makes us think of Isaiah's familiar prophecy that the name of the coming Messiah would be "Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6). The name "Wonderful" for the angel of the Lord who appeared to Manoah connects this "angel" with the coming Messiah who was to be called "Wonderful."

No One Has Seen the Father

Suddenly we have more leads than we can follow at once. The "angel of the Lord" is clearly shown to be God. But the Bible states, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" (John 1:18). John 6:46 tells us, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father." Obviously, since no man has seen God the Father, all of these Old Testament sightings of God as the "angel of the Lord" must have been Jesus, God the Son, veiling His glory so they could endure His presence without being consumed.

 

[MAC]

Rebuking the Accuser

There is one more important reference where the angel of the Lord appears in the Old Testament. The prophet Zechariah was given a vision of Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord. Satan is standing at his right hand to resist him. Here we see two adversaries contending over a sinful human being. In this case the sin is represented by Joshua's filthy garments (Zechariah 3:3).

In this narrative the name changes quickly from "the angel of the Lord" (verse 1) to "the Lord" (verse 2), indicating again that they are one and the same. Then the Lord makes an interesting statement. "And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan" (Zechariah 3:2) There is only one other place in Scripture, Jude verse nine, where this sentence is found, and it is spoken by Michael the archangel!

In the small New Testament epistle of Jude we see a vignette similar to Joshua and the angel in the book of Zechariah. "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee" (Jude 1:9). The situations are amazingly parallel. Christ and Satan are contending over a sinner. A live one in the case of Joshua, and a dead one in the case of Moses. The debate is ended abruptly when Jesus says, "The Lord rebuke thee." Jesus also rebuked the devil when He was tempted in the wilderness. "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan" (Luke 4:8).

Michael the Prince

Isaiah's prophecy about the Messiah (Isaiah 9:6) reveals a key word that bears investigating. One of the names he says that would apply to the Messiah is "Prince of Peace." This immediately reminds us of the three verses in Daniel in which Michael is called a "prince."

There is another verse in Daniel where the "Prince of princes" is mentioned. Again the cosmic conflict is being played out with Christ on one side and the devil on the other, with humanity serving as the battlefield. Symbolic names identify the two arch foes. Both struggle to gain control, Satan against our will and Christ only with our willingness.

"Prince of princes" is actually the same term that is translated "prince of the host" in verse 11. This is similar to "Lord of lords" (Psalm 136:3), "God of gods" (Deuteronomy 10:17), and "King of kings" (Revelation 19:16). All these are titles of deity. He is even referred to as "Messiah the Prince" (Daniel 9:25).

One, or First?

Daniel 10:13 is probably the most difficult verse regarding Michael: "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me." It appears at first glance that Michael is only "one of" the chief princes. This is an unfortunate translation in the King James Version. The word "one" comes from the Hebrew word "echad" which also means "first," as in "first day" (Genesis 1:5). This changes the whole meaning of the verse to Michael being first of, or highest of, the chief princes. Again, a reference to Jesus.

The Voice of Michael

If we take the term "Michael the archangel" and examine the word "archangel," we see another interesting match. The only other passage in the Bible that uses the word "archangel" is 1 Thessalonians 4:16. But look at its context. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first." It is the voice of the archangel that raises the dead in Christ, and the Lord Himself who shouts it. This indicates that they are one and the same. Jesus is the one who shouts with the voice of the archangel, or "greatest Messenger," to raise the dead!

Obviously, angels don't have the power to resurrect the dead. Only God who gives life has the power to restore it. "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself. … Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth" (John 5:26, 28, 29).

In Jude we see the archangel contending with the devil for the body of Moses, who, incidentally, was resurrected and taken to heaven from whence he appeared on the mount of transfiguration to encourage Christ (Mark 9). In 1 Thessalonians, the apostle Paul describes the resurrection as happening in response to the voice of the archangel. Again we see the parallel between these two verses; both describe the archangel in the act of resurrecting.

When Michael stands up in Daniel chapter 12, there also follows a resurrection, and he is described as the one who, "standeth for the children of thy people" (verse 1). Commenting on this verse, Matthew Henry states: "Michael signifies, 'Who is like God,' and his name, with the title of 'the great Prince,' points out the Divine Savior. Christ stood for the children of our people in their stead as a sacrifice, bore the curse for them, to bear it from them. He stands for them in pleading for them at the throne of grace." Jesus is clearly the one who always stands in our place and for our defense.

Worshiping the Commander

In Revelation, Michael is portrayed as leading the heavenly hosts, or armies, in the war against the rebellious Lucifer that took place there. "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels" (Revelation 12:7). Here the term "dragon" is a symbolic name for Satan, the leader of evil (verse 9), so it is very safe to assume that Michael is another name for Jesus, the embodiment and leader of good. But there is more evidence.

Just as Israel was preparing for its first battle after crossing into the Promised Land, Joshua had an encounter with an unusual warrior. "And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so" (Joshua 5:13-15).

Not only did Joshua worship this being, but the heavenly captain received his worship. If he had been a mere angel, he would have rebuked Joshua just like the angel rebuked John for trying to worship him (see Revelation 19:10; 22:8, 9).

In all the cases where the angel of the Lord accepts worship, it is clearly the Son of God. But where regular created angels are worshiped, they refuse it. Even Jesus reminded Satan in the wilderness, "For it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve" (Luke 4:8).

In fact, all the created angels are commanded to worship Jesus as they did during His first advent. "And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him" (Hebrews 1:6). The devil is infuriated because he knows that someday even he will be compelled to acknowledge Jesus as king and worship Him. "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:10, 11).

The phrase "Lord of hosts" is found 245 times in the Bible and refers to the "commander of God's angelic army." So the "captain of the Lord's host" that Joshua saw was not an angel, but Jesus Himself. That explains why He demanded that Joshua remove his shoes. The place was holy because Jesus was there, just as Jesus' presence at the burning bush made that ground holy for Moses. So Michael, the captain of the Lord's host, or army, is another title for Jesus.

Who Is as God!

When Phillip asked Jesus to show the disciples the Father, Christ responded: "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9).

Some think that God's Son waited 4,000 years to personally intervene in the affairs of man. Not so! Though it is true that the incarnation occurred 4,000 years after man's fall, God the Son has been personally involved in the history and affairs of His people.

What a wonderful truth that Jesus, God's eternal Son, has ever been actively occupied in watching over, providing for, and protecting His children! He spoke face to face with Abraham and Moses and wrestled with Jacob. He led the Israelites through the wilderness, providing food and water and victory against their enemies.

Remember that the title "Michael the archangel" means "The greatest messenger who is as God." It was Jesus, "the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15), who brought the greatest message of hope, the gospel, to our perishing world!

 

[FreeinChrist]

Not only SDA have some of that idea but also Pentecostal, Baptize, Reformed and many others. It is not about what domination it is, is what I am trying to learn through the word of God about Michael.

The idea that Michael is a name for preincarnate Christ has come up over the centuries, but got discarded after a time. It is now mainly the SDA that believe it so, and then the Jehovah Witnesses believe that Jesus was the angel Michael befroe the Incarnation.

But what do you think about this;

It's in the Name

First, let's consider the meaning of some words and names. In the Greek New Testament, as compared to the Old Testament, the word "angel" means "messenger," and "arch" means "chief, principle, greatest, or highest." So "archangel" simply means "highest or greatest messenger." The Hebrew name "Michael" means "who is like God" or "Who is like God?" Whether this name is a question, statement, or a challenge will be clear by further study. One angel did profess to be like God. That fallen being is Lucifer, the covering cherub in the heavenly courts who became the devil, Satan, by claiming to "be like the most High" (Isaiah 14:14). In Revelation 12:7 Satan is opposed by "Michael and his angels" and is cast out of heaven.
[/quote}
And Gabriel means "mighty like God" - do you think Gabriel is also Christ?

And did you read the verse in Hebrews about Christ NOT taking on the nature of angels, contrary to what that author wrote?

As you have avoided my questions regarding the Jude passage, I'll include this:
(Jude 1:9 NIV) "But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!""

(2 Pet 2:11 NIV) "yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord."

Michael an angel, did the work of angels as outlined in 2 Peter, as he did not bring a slanderous accusation against the devil. Jude does not identify the archangel Michael, as Christ. But what is an archangel? From Strong's Dictionary, 743. "archaggelos, ar-khang'-el-os; from G757 and G32; a chief angel:--archangel." Archangel means a chief angel. Michael therefore is a chief angel. Jesus is not a chief angel, or a created being, but Commander over the angels. He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. Michael said to the devil, "the Lord rebuke you." Michael as archangel (chief angel) a created being, does not have authority to rebuke the devil in disputing over the body of Moses, so he invokes the Lord's name.

Now to save time I will agree that there are instances of Christophany (preincarnate appearances of Christ) in the OT. I already wrote this to you. Melchizadek is an example. In the other instances when 'the Angel of the Lord' appears, it is evident it is the Lord. But he is NOT called Michael in these instances, nor referred to as an archangle, nor 'one of the chief princes'. And Angel can be referred to in them as a messenger.


Can you show ONE verse that says Michael - by name - is the Christ? That Michael would die for our sins? That Michael is more that an angel?

 

[FreeinChrist]

One more question - do you use the Clear Word Bible?

 

[Polycarp1]

Michael is the Prince of the (loyal) Angels, according to Scripture -- as Satan is Prince of the Rebellious Angels, who became demons.

As for Melchizedek, the name means, roughly, "Messenger of Righteousness" -- and "melek" (the first element of the name) or variations on it is the term used for "angel" in Hebrew.

He was Priest/King of Salem, on the site of what would later be Jerusalem, and Abraham offered him a tithe and he offered Abraham bread and wine. From this, the author of Hebrews draws, by obvious symbology, the implication that Melchizedek is an antetype of Christ -- and therefore both are superior to the Aaronic priesthood.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Michael is the Prince of the (loyal) Angels, according to Scripture -- as Satan is Prince of the Rebellious Angels, who became demons.

As for Melchizedek, the name means, roughly, "Messenger of Righteousness" -- and "melek" (the first element of the name) or variations on it is the term used for "angel" in Hebrew.

He was Priest/King of Salem, on the site of what would later be Jerusalem, and Abraham offered him a tithe and he offered Abraham bread and wine. From this, the author of Hebrews draws, by obvious symbology, the implication that Melchizedek is an antetype of Christ -- and therefore both are superior to the Aaronic priesthood.

More regarding Mechizdek: Salem means peace, so Melchizedek is the King of Peace. Hebrews 7 has alot more to say about him.

 

[danceforjoy]

Are Seventh-Day Adventists "Angels" just because they preach the "Three Angel's Messages of Revelation fourteen?
Just as Mac said, Angels means heavenly messengers with a message directly from heaven. The everlasting gospel anouncing the arrival of God's judgment hour together with giving glory to Christ as Creator God and Lord of the Seventh-Day Sabbath.
Warning of the fall of Babylon and the "mark of the beast 666"!

So Michael is not necessarely an Angel as the world sees it. Compare revelation 1:5 where it says that Jesus is the first begotten of the dead.
This verse has caused much perplexity. Obviously Jesus was not the first one to be rsurrected. Besides Moses, Jesus raised three others. There are at least two ways that the word "first" may be understood. It can either mean first in point of time or first in preeminence.
The President's wife is spoken of as the First Lady-not because she is the first Lady who existed, but first in pre-eminence.
Christ was "first begotten of the dead" because that resurrection took the pre-eminence over all other resurrections.
With the contest between God and the Devil, we have to remember that the Devil as Lucifer and star of the morning was so loved by his angels that they followed him into the rebellion of sin. Had God destroyed the devil and saved us so much pain, then in the back of the mind of all intelligent beings a question mark over God's fairness in dealing with sin would have remained forever.
The affection of the Universe was still with Lucifer when the body of Moses was disputed. Not until the cross, could heaven witness Satan's real character and intent against the governement of God by trying to put out the light and keep this planet as his own forever.
Only at the cross was Satan finally defeated and all saw the fairness of God in dealing with Lucifer and the sin problem.


>Unless God has all of your heart, the Devil has a part<

 

[FreeinChrist]

Are Seventh-Day Adventists "Angels" just because they preach the "Three Angel's Messages of Revelation fourteen?
Just as Mac said, Angels means heavenly messengers with a message directly from heaven. The everlasting gospel anouncing the arrival of God's judgment hour together with giving glory to Christ as Creator God and Lord of the Seventh-Day Sabbath.
Warning of the fall of Babylon and the "mark of the beast 666"!

This comment makes no sense. While the word angel can be translated as messenger for a role that is undertaken, there are angels who are created beings. And contrary to White, Jesus did not take on the nature of angels to save them. Again:
Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham.

So Michael is not necessarely an Angel as the world sees it. Compare revelation 1:5 where it says that Jesus is the first begotten of the dead.
This verse has caused much perplexity. Obviously Jesus was not the first one to be rsurrected. Besides Moses, Jesus raised three others. There are at least two ways that the word "first" may be understood. It can either mean first in point of time or first in preeminence.

Oh my! !
Paul refers to Jesus as the Firstfruits of the Resurrection!!! See I Corinthians! IF Jesus is not the first - well the meaning of His saving work is truly changed!!!
Do you understand that Christ existed with the Father before creation and in fact, God created the world through Him? That Christ, in becoming man was made alittle lower than the angels in order to provide the supremem sacrifice for sin. That it was this very act of resurrection that made the power of death powerless???
Hbr 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,Hbr 2:15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
1Cr 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.1Cr 15:21 For since by a man {came} death, by a man also {came} the resurrection of the dead.

With the contest between God and the Devil, we have to remember that the Devil as Lucifer and star of the morning was so loved by his angels that they followed him into the rebellion of sin. Had God destroyed the devil and saved us so much pain, then in the back of the mind of all intelligent beings a question mark over God's fairness in dealing with sin would have remained forever.
The affection of the Universe was still with Lucifer when the body of Moses was disputed. Not until the cross, could heaven witness Satan's real character and intent against the governement of God by trying to put out the light and keep this planet as his own forever.
Only at the cross was Satan finally defeated and all saw the fairness of God in dealing with Lucifer and the sin problem.

Not until the cross could heaven witness Satan's real character??
Do you have any scripture to back this claim up?

Do buy into this stuff by Ellen White in the Great Controversy?
Chapter/page: 29/495-496 - "God in His great mercy bore long with Lucifer. He was not immediately degraded from his exalted station when he indulged the spirit of discontent, nor even when he began to present his false claims before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in heaven. Again and again he was offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission. Such efforts as only infinite love and wisdom could devise were made to convince him of his error. The spirit of discontent had never before been known in heaven. Lucifer himself did not at first see whither he was drifting; he did not understand the real nature of his feelings. But as his dissatisfaction was proved to be without cause, Lucifer was convinced that he was in the wrong, that the divine claims were just, and that he ought to acknowledge them as such before all heaven. Had he done this, he might have saved himself and many angels. He had not at this time fully cast off his allegiance to God.

Though he had forsaken his position as covering cherub, yet if he had been willing to return to God, acknowledging the Creator's wisdom and satisfied to fill the place appointed him in God's great plan, he would have been reinstated in his office. But pride forbade him to submit. He persistently defended his own course, maintained that he had no need of repentance, and fully committed himself, in the great controversy, against his Maker."

And is there one bit of scripture to back this stuff up?

 

[danceforjoy]

FreeinChrist!
"The devil and his angels fought in heaven" and when Jesus casted out devils and went into swine the demon said our name is 'legion' for we are many.
Isn't this scripture enough for you to believe? Isn't that proof that evil spirits or angels are affectionate to Satan?
Nice of you quoting White when it wasn't called for. Thanks anywhy, it's good for others to spread our message.
But it is certainly nasty work to compare us to J.W's and when as you say it use to be believed through the centuries that Michael refered to Christ but not anymore, what do you think why this is so?

>Unless God has all of your heart, the devil has a part<

 

[FreeinChrist]

FreeinChrist!
"The devil and his angels fought in heaven" and when Jesus casted out devils and went into swine the demon said our name is 'legion' for we are many.
Isn't this scripture enough for you to believe? Isn't that proof that evil spirits or angels are affectionate to Satan?

Again, you aren't making much sense. Exactly who denies that evil spirits - aka fallen angels - follow Satan? 1/3 of the angels (who are created beings) in heaven followed Satan in rebellion. That the number of those who stayed are myriads and myriads" mean those 1/3 could be legion. So. Doesn't mean that those who follow God are "affectionate" toward Satan. And an archangel would lead angels.

Nice of you quoting White when it wasn't called for. Thanks anywhy, it's good for others to spread our message.

And I expect that others will see the problem with her writing. The lack of scriptural back up. Supply it if it exists.

But it is certainly nasty work to compare us to J.W's and when as you say it use to be believed through the centuries that Michael refered to Christ but not anymore, what do you think why this is so?

You are either misstating what I wrote or it wasn't clear enough. I did not write that through the centuries, Christians believed it so and only now they don't. Only just that at certain points, certain teachers taught it. But it did not hold up.

And yes, currently the groups that hold to Michael as Christ are the two I mentioned - and I clarified about what the Jehovah Witnesses believe.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Now let's look at a Christophany and Michael's role:
Dan 10:4 On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, while I was by the bank of the great river, that is, the Tigris,Dan 10:5 I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a certain man dressed in linen, whose waist was girded with {a belt of} pure gold of Uphaz.Dan 10:6 His body also {was} like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a tumult.

Now compare the description of this 'man' to the one here:

Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands;Rev 1:13 and in the middle of the lampstands {I saw} one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash.Rev 1:14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire.Rev 1:15 His feet {were} like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice {was} like the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.

I color coded the parts that are to be compared to each other.

The one in Revelation says:
Rev 1:17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,Rev 1:18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

It's Christ.

Now look at what the one in Daniel says about Michael:

Dan 10:13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

Michael came to help preincarnate Christ.
And I will point out that in the other instances of Christophany, the name Michael is not used.