Meeting between ACNA and OCA

Jesus4Madrid

Orthodox Christian
Jul 21, 2011
1,064
755
✟90,072.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
:oldthumbsup::oldthumbsup:
I am amused that the ACNA continues to invite Met. Hilarion and Abp. Haverland to occasionally address them, because the message is always the same: "Until you eliminate this aberration of ordained women, we don't have much to say to you." Obviously that was my paraphrase but it is always the issue they bring up.


So...what is so hard about that?;) I am a former Anglican. Actually, maybe we Orthodox should be meeting with Anglicans who reject the female priesthood. I suspect that renouncing ordained women would be a bridge too far for many Anglicans. And Orthodoxy will never accept female priests. So perhaps we have the wrong speaking partners. Anglicans who believe in ordaining women are probably going to find more in common with Lutherans and Presbyterians.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shane R
Upvote 0

Jesus4Madrid

Orthodox Christian
Jul 21, 2011
1,064
755
✟90,072.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Hi Mary,

Nice to meet you. I was an Orthodox Priest (OCA) before I joined the ACC. Seems like we have similar stories but in different directions :)

Fr. Gregory Wassen
Father Wassen,

May I ask why you left Holy Orthodoxy? I am a former Anglican as well.

Would your experience have been the same were you a priest in the Western Rite?
 
Upvote 0

Father_Gregory_Wassen

Catholic Anglican
Jun 7, 2011
50
10
Orvelte
Visit site
✟7,730.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Father Wassen,

May I ask why you left Holy Orthodoxy? I am a former Anglican as well.

Would your experience have been the same were you a priest in the Western Rite?

There would be several such reasons. Not all of them I would be willing to discuss on a public forum. I do not wish my story is somehow used or taken to be an attempt to throw shade at the Orthodox Church. Nor do I wish my story be taken as in any way an encouragement to follow my lead out of the Orthodox Church. The reasons were serious, painful, and unavoidable. That is not to say it is the fault of the Orthodox Church alone though it was partly responsible, nor do I believe it was entirely my own sinfulness that caused my departure though it was certainly part of it. I left the OCA in good standing and my removal from the ranks of Orthodox clergy is entirely due to my leaving Orthodoxy. That's about as much as I am willing to say about it.

"Western Rite" would have caused me to stay longer, but ultimately it would not have been enough. Besides that I also do not think Western Rite is really what it seems. Though I am friends with Fr. Benedict Andersen (now a Roman Catholic & Benedictine monk) I am less well-disposed toward the BCP as he is in his thesis for Saint Vladimir's Seminary concerning the Rite of St. Tikhon. I concur with significant parts of his thought as therein expressed, but ultimately, I think there is nothing (or next to nothing) which has its sole origin in Cranmer that can be "baptized, redeemed, and used" in an Orthodox (or Catholic) sense. By that I mean that to me the BCP is structurally flawed and beyond saving. That said the Rite of St. Gregory - with the Epiclesis added - is also a dead end. The Gregorian Canon expresses a different, and older, theology as do Byzantine Anaphoras and the lack of an Epiclesis is a feature of this antiquity. The Gregorian Canon did not drop the Epiclesis ... it never had one is not supposed to have one. The addition of an Epiclesis is a severe distortion of the Canon. At least that is how I have come to look at it. Iow Western Rite would not have worked for me since, as I see it, it is adapted to fit a Byzantine development in doctrine not characteristic of the West.

Perhaps I could add that when you speak of "Holy" Orthodoxy, I have since discovered that this "holiness" is not exclusive to Orthodoxy. I would be quite comfortable speaking of "Holy Christianity" in which Orthodoxy participates, as does Catholicism (either Anglican or Roman), and I would not categorically wish to exclude Protestants either. Christianity is much more complex phenomenon than neatly fits in anyone's apologetical filing system.

Fr. Gregory Wassen
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tigger45
Upvote 0

Father_Gregory_Wassen

Catholic Anglican
Jun 7, 2011
50
10
Orvelte
Visit site
✟7,730.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Father Wassen,

May I ask why you left Holy Orthodoxy? I am a former Anglican as well.

Would your experience have been the same were you a priest in the Western Rite?

There would be several such reasons. Not all of them I would be willing to discuss on a public forum. I do not wish my story is somehow used or taken to be an attempt to throw shade at the Orthodox Church. Nor do I wish my story be taken as in any way an encouragement to follow my lead out of the Orthodox Church. The reasons were serious, painful, and unavoidable. That is not to say it is the fault of the Orthodox Church alone though it was partly responsible, nor do I believe it was entirely my own sinfulness that caused my departure though it was certainly part of it. I left the OCA in good standing and my removal from the ranks of Orthodox clergy is entirely due to my leaving Orthodoxy. That's about as much as I am willing to say about it.

"Western Rite" would have caused me to stay longer, but ultimately it would not have been enough. Besides that I also do not think Western Rite is really what it seems. Though I am friends with Fr. Benedict Andersen (now a Roman Catholic & Benedictine monk) I am less well-disposed toward the BCP as he is in his thesis for Saint Vladimir's Seminary concerning the Rite of St. Tikhon. I concur with significant parts of his thought as therein expressed, but ultimately, I think there is nothing (or next to nothing) which has its sole origin in Cranmer that can be "baptized, redeemed, and used" in an Orthodox (or Catholic) sense. By that I mean that to me the BCP is structurally flawed and beyond saving. That said the Rite of St. Gregory - with the Epiclesis added - is also a dead end. The Gregorian Canon expresses a different, and older, theology as do Byzantine Anaphoras and the lack of an Epiclesis is a feature of this antiquity. The Gregorian Canon did not drop the Epiclesis ... it never had one is not supposed to have one. The addition of an Epiclesis is a severe distortion of the Canon. At least that is how I have come to look at it. Iow Western Rite would not have worked for me since, as I see it, it is adapted to fit a Byzantine development in doctrine not characteristic of the West.

Perhaps I could add that when you speak of "Holy" Orthodoxy, I have since discovered that this "holiness" is not exclusive to Orthodoxy. I would be quite comfortable speaking of "Holy Christianity" in which Orthodoxy participates, as does Catholicism (either Anglican or Roman), and I would not categorically wish to exclude Protestants either. Christianity is much more complex phenomenon than neatly fits in anyone's apologetical filing system.

Fr. Gregory Wassen
 
Upvote 0

Jesus4Madrid

Orthodox Christian
Jul 21, 2011
1,064
755
✟90,072.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
There would be several such reasons. Not all of them I would be willing to discuss on a public forum. I do not wish my story is somehow used or taken to be an attempt to throw shade at the Orthodox Church. Nor do I wish my story be taken as in any way an encouragement to follow my lead out of the Orthodox Church. The reasons were serious, painful, and unavoidable. That is not to say it is the fault of the Orthodox Church alone though it was partly responsible, nor do I believe it was entirely my own sinfulness that caused my departure though it was certainly part of it. I left the OCA in good standing and my removal from the ranks of Orthodox clergy is entirely due to my leaving Orthodoxy. That's about as much as I am willing to say about it.

"Western Rite" would have caused me to stay longer, but ultimately it would not have been enough. Besides that I also do not think Western Rite is really what it seems. Though I am friends with Fr. Benedict Andersen (now a Roman Catholic & Benedictine monk) I am less well-disposed toward the BCP as he is in his thesis for Saint Vladimir's Seminary concerning the Rite of St. Tikhon. I concur with significant parts of his thought as therein expressed, but ultimately, I think there is nothing (or next to nothing) which has its sole origin in Cranmer that can be "baptized, redeemed, and used" in an Orthodox (or Catholic) sense. By that I mean that to me the BCP is structurally flawed and beyond saving. That said the Rite of St. Gregory - with the Epiclesis added - is also a dead end. The Gregorian Canon expresses a different, and older, theology as do Byzantine Anaphoras and the lack of an Epiclesis is a feature of this antiquity. The Gregorian Canon did not drop the Epiclesis ... it never had one is not supposed to have one. The addition of an Epiclesis is a severe distortion of the Canon. At least that is how I have come to look at it. Iow Western Rite would not have worked for me since, as I see it, it is adapted to fit a Byzantine development in doctrine not characteristic of the West.

Perhaps I could add that when you speak of "Holy" Orthodoxy, I have since discovered that this "holiness" is not exclusive to Orthodoxy. I would be quite comfortable speaking of "Holy Christianity" in which Orthodoxy participates, as does Catholicism (either Anglican or Roman), and I would not categorically wish to exclude Protestants either. Christianity is much more complex phenomenon than neatly fits in anyone's apologetical filing system.

Fr. Gregory Wassen
Thank you Father Gregory.

Whilst I dove right in to the Eastern Rite and now embrace it, I love the idea of a Western Rite based on the Sarum, or Mozarabic or whatever authentic Orthodox rite is embraced by the people.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
:oldthumbsup::oldthumbsup:


So...what is so hard about that?;) I am a former Anglican. Actually, maybe we Orthodox should be meeting with Anglicans who reject the female priesthood. I suspect that renouncing ordained women would be a bridge too far for many Anglicans. And Orthodoxy will never accept female priests. So perhaps we have the wrong speaking partners. Anglicans who believe in ordaining women are probably going to find more in common with Lutherans and Presbyterians.
Your point seems reasonable enough, but the fact remains that the Orthodox don't treat the traditionalist Anglican jurisdictions which have taken a stand against women priests (and all the other doctrinal innovations that have come along in recent years) any differently than they threat the liberal Anglican Communion provinces.
 
Upvote 0

Jesus4Madrid

Orthodox Christian
Jul 21, 2011
1,064
755
✟90,072.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Your point seems reasonable enough, but the fact remains that the Orthodox don't treat the traditionalist Anglican jurisdictions which have taken a stand against women priests (and all the other doctrinal innovations that have come along in recent years) any differently than they threat the liberal Anglican Communion provinces.
True. Though you will understand their confusion.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
True. Though you will understand their confusion.
No, I actually cannot appreciate why they can't tell one Anglican church from another. I can understand many other aspects of this issue, but not that one. In fact, I rather suspect that, as with the Romans, their interest is not primarily in dealing with the Anglicans who most agree with orthodox theology.
 
Upvote 0

Jesus4Madrid

Orthodox Christian
Jul 21, 2011
1,064
755
✟90,072.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
No, I actually cannot appreciate why they can't tell one Anglican church from another. I can understand many other aspects of this issue, but not that one. In fact, I rather suspect that, as with the Romans, their interest is not primarily in dealing with the Anglicans who most agree with orthodox theology.
Ok, well I was Anglican for 10 years and I have trouble, so I am not surprised cradle Orthodox might have some difficulties.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Ok, well I was Anglican for 10 years and I have trouble, so I am not surprised cradle Orthodox might have some difficulties.
I can't speak for you, of course, but I can't imagine why the best minds of, say, the Patriarchal churches, can't discern any difference between the Continuing Anglicans, the ACNA, and the Anglican Communion when I am pretty much able to discern the diff between the Moscow Patriarchate, the OCA, and ROCOR.

Well, actually I think I do know. We're all "Protestants."

And keep in mind that we're not talking about minutia. The issue that caused this mini-discussion to arise was women's ordination. How hard is it to discern which churches are on which side of that divide, when it's been just about the hottest topic in the religious press over the past quarter century?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Shane R
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jesus4Madrid

Orthodox Christian
Jul 21, 2011
1,064
755
✟90,072.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
I can't speak for you, of course, but I can't imagine why the best minds of, say, the Patriarchal churches, can't discern any difference between the Continuing Anglicans, the ACNA, and the Anglican Communion when I am pretty much able to discern the diff between the Moscow Patriarchate, the OCA, and ROCOR.
Orthodox minds don't work like Anglican minds..
 
Upvote 0