Meeting between ACNA and OCA

[Mary of Bethany]

https://oca.org/news/headline-news/meeting-between-the-oca-and-traditionalist-anglicans-held

Interesting. I'm happy they're meeting & talking, but I also wonder why there have been no meetings (to my knowledge) with the Continuing Anglican bodies, who are the true traditionalists among the groups separated from TEC. Perhaps none of the Continuing bodies are interested?

Mary

 

[Albion]

https://oca.org/news/headline-news/meeting-between-the-oca-and-traditionalist-anglicans-held

Interesting. I'm happy they're meeting & talking, but I also wonder why there have been no meetings (to my knowledge) with the Continuing Anglican bodies, who are the true traditionalists among the groups separated from TEC. Perhaps none of the Continuing bodies are interested?

Mary

The theology of the Continuing Anglican churches isn't all that compatible with Orthodoxy, although almost all Anglicans tend to appreciate that there are similarities. In addition, these things always seem to be initiated by the Anglicans and the Orthodox either respond coolly or, as with the archbishop (?) of the OCA (?) who became openly supportive of the ACNA a few years back, he wound up getting sacked by his own church for it. I have a hunch that the Continuing Anglicans in the USA have basically concluded that such feelers are destined not to go anywhere.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Could be. And I have no idea who initiated this meeting, but it was attended by Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA and I don't think he's going to get booted.

 

[Albion]

FWIW, when the other man was demoted or whatever, the Orthodox said, I think, that his coziness with ACNA wasn't the reason, but the Anglicans apparently thought it was. They, the ACNA, could have been responsible for the outcome, though, because they greatly overplayed his participation in the gatherings, implying that this meant something about the OCA itself, which I never thought was intended by him. But I'm just going on some religious news reports.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

It was definitely not, and I was going to mention that. Unfortunately he and the other bishops seemed to be "oil & water", for many reasons. Which was too bad, because those of us who had gotten to know him a bit were very hopeful that he would have a long and spiritually beneficial tenure.

 

[Feuerbach]

I don't know about other continuers on here or their respective hierarchies, but from conversations with my own bishop - meetings like this with the Orthodox are "nice" but the sense is that such things will never amount to anything more than niceties.

 

[Father_Gregory_Wassen]

As a member of the Anglican Catholic Church - not ACNA nor TEC - I would encourage these meetings. In fact I think Metropolitan Jonah (formerly of the OCA) conducted a retreat in one of our Parishes not too long ago. ++Jonah did not become supportive of the ACNA. He basically told them that if they would ever want to become Orthodox they would have to stop being Calvinist (dump the articles of religion) and restore Apostolic Order (no women priests). At the time I remember rumors - that was all they were - that a Western Rite was possible along the lines of the Antiochian Western Rite. That said I do not expect these meetings will amount to restoration of communion. Nor am I convinced a Western Rite is really viable in any Eastern Orthodox Church at this point in time.

Cordial relations and building inter-Christian relations is important for its own sake. Even if re-union is unlikely. At least, it seems so to me.

Fr. Gregory Wassen

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Hello, Fr. Gregory. My husband is in the ACC, and I was before converting to Orthodoxy.

Mary

 

[Mary of Bethany]

I don't know about other continuers on here or their respective hierarchies, but from conversations with my own bishop - meetings like this with the Orthodox are "nice" but the sense is that such things will never amount to anything more than niceties.

Agreed. But it's good to have good relationships, I think.

 

[Father_Gregory_Wassen]

Hello, Fr. Gregory. My husband is in the ACC, and I was before converting to Orthodoxy.

Mary

Hi Mary,

Nice to meet you. I was an Orthodox Priest (OCA) before I joined the ACC. Seems like we have similar stories but in different directions

Fr. Gregory Wassen

 

[Tigger45]

Hi Mary,

Nice to meet you. I was an Orthodox Priest (OCA) before I joined the ACC. Seems like we have similar stories but in different directions

Fr. Gregory Wassen

Wow, that would make for an interesting story.

 

[Shane R]

Perhaps part of the reason the Orthodox structures do not pay much attention to the Continuum is our lack of concord. Once we finally get some semblance of unity in 2017 or slightly beyond, perhaps these ecumenical dialogues can be advanced. In recent years, 'ecumenism' has meant the ACC talking to APCK and so on - really conversations within a group with comparable DNA. Now, my own jurisdiction recognizes 'three streams' in the form of Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican. Our episcopate has not opposed clergy who wished to pursue and even unite with one of the other streams than the Anglican one.

All that said, I think back on the words of one of my high-church ACNA associates/friends: "The Orthodox are perfectly willing to accept us as long as we convert to Orthodoxy."

 

[Albion]

Perhaps part of the reason the Orthodox structures do not pay much attention to the Continuum is our lack of concord. Once we finally get some semblance of unity in 2017 or slightly beyond, perhaps these ecumenical dialogues can be advanced. In recent years, 'ecumenism' has meant the ACC talking to APCK and so on - really conversations within a group with comparable DNA. Now, my own jurisdiction recognizes 'three streams' in the form of Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican. Our episcopate has not opposed clergy who wished to pursue and even unite with one of the other streams than the Anglican one.

All that said, I think back on the words of one of my high-church ACNA associates/friends: "The Orthodox are perfectly willing to accept us as long as we convert to Orthodoxy."

I was thinking something as I read along through that post...and then the quotation came up and Bingo! That's exactly what I was thinking.

 

[Shane R]

I am amused that the ACNA continues to invite Met. Hilarion and Abp. Haverland to occasionally address them, because the message is always the same: "Until you eliminate this aberration of ordained women, we don't have much to say to you." Obviously that was my paraphrase but it is always the issue they bring up.

 

[Shane R]

but I also wonder why there have been no meetings (to my knowledge) with the Continuing Anglican bodies, who are the true traditionalists among the groups separated from TEC.

And this is something I learned by experience. The ACNA is really a moderate body, much like its distant Lutheran cousin the NALC, that likes to fancy itself conservative because the viewpoint of the episcopate was so thrown out of focus by former allegiances that they can't rightly define a conservative. Sure, there are a handful of dioceses that are outliers (ahem, REC) but if the church welcomes back AMiA and accepts the Diocese of SC, they will be thoroughly moderate with no hope of a conservative 'victory' in the college of Bishops.

 

[Father_Gregory_Wassen]

All that said, I think back on the words of one of my high-church ACNA associates/friends: "The Orthodox are perfectly willing to accept us as long as we convert to Orthodoxy."

Your friend's remark is spot on.

I once participated in a conversation between a Bishop and his Priests/Deacons where one of the questions we were to discuss was the recent request by a Continuing Anglican Bishop to tell him how he could enter into full communion with the OCA. The answer, of course, was conversion. What is disturbing in hindsight was the round of laughter and mockery that preceded our final conclusion and answer. We did not laugh in the ma's face, but we did laugh at the idea that Protestants had any expectation we would accept them in their (non-existent) Orders. Most of us were willing to accept their baptism as valid, but not any other Sacrament. Iow they still needed to complete their baptism by being confirmed.

I never anticipated being on the other side of that fence though.

Fr. Gregory Wassen

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Perhaps part of the reason the Orthodox structures do not pay much attention to the Continuum is our lack of concord. Once we finally get some semblance of unity in 2017 or slightly beyond, perhaps these ecumenical dialogues can be advanced. In recent years, 'ecumenism' has meant the ACC talking to APCK and so on - really conversations within a group with comparable DNA. Now, my own jurisdiction recognizes 'three streams' in the form of Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican. Our episcopate has not opposed clergy who wished to pursue and even unite with one of the other streams than the Anglican one.

All that said, I think back on the words of one of my high-church ACNA associates/friends: "The Orthodox are perfectly willing to accept us as long as we convert to Orthodoxy."

This is very true, and the Orthodox will always be up-front about it. There can be no communion without being in the Church, from the Orthodox pov. That's why I agreed with Feuerbach that these are really just nice overtures.

 

[Father_Gregory_Wassen]

This is very true, and the Orthodox will always be up-front about it. There can be no communion without being in the Church, from the Orthodox pov. That's why I agreed with Feuerbach that these are really just nice overtures.

Or more precisely, without being in the Orthodox Church. Orthodox (at least officially) only - though practice varies - commune other Orthodox. However if one takes the view that the Church is entered by means of Baptism the question quickly becomes what constitutes a real Baptism? In practice most jurisdictions will accept any trinitarian baptism. This raises the question of whether sacraments can be empty shells filled (with grace) once Orthodoxy is entered or whether there is real, efficaceous (?), baptism outside the canonical boundaries of the Orthodox Church? Opinions within the Orthodox world vary widely. But it is entirely possible that an Orthodox holds the opinion that a trinitarian baptism provides entry into the Church and that therefore all the baptized are - in some way - within it whether Orthodox or not.

It is possible that in time the Orthodox will in fact shift toward the view that all the baptized are de facto in the Church and therefore a trajectory to reunion without conversion becomes feasible. However, for a variety of reasons, I do not believe such a thing is likely to occur anytime soon. The Orthodox as well as the Continuing Anglicans have a lot of internal work to do before any mending can really be done outside our own communities. But that does not excuse us from at least "being Christian" toward one another ;-) And it seems to me that there is value in positive relations between Christians for its own sake.

Fr. Gregory Wassen

 

[Shane R]

I was reading an old lecture today and came across this quote, which seems to fit this thread in a general way:

Well, now, if that is Protestant which protests against the errors of Rome, why do you not call the Eastern Church, which does so strongly protest against them, by this name Protestant?

Why, you reply, because the Greek Church is every bit as bad as Popery.

Ah: now we are coming a little closer to the point. By a Protestant, then, you mean one who protests — not against the errors of Rome, but — against something held in common by the Roman and by the Eastern Church. And that something is, I will venture to say, not held more strongly by either of them than it is by the English Church. You mean by Protestant, a man who protests against the Sacramental system of the Church — against Baptismal Regeneration — against the Divine gift of the Holy Ghost in Confirmation — against the Real Presence — against the Apostolic Succession — against the Power of Absolution. Therefore it was that I said that the Church of England never was, is not, and by God's grace never will be, Protestant: because she holds, as most necessary truths, every one of these blessed doctrines.
- John Mason Neale, 1852​

 

[Albion]

There was a point to that sermon, I know, and sometimes it helps to cut corners in order to get a certain idea across to the listeners; but the whole premise is wrong, we should know. The word Protestant, as it originated, didn't refer to protesting against Roman Catholic doctrine or RC and EO doctrines held jointly.