Meet a Caravan Organizer

[Aldebaran]

Technically, all the migrants who entered Mexico's south border illegally are criminals. But no one wants to admit that.

That's very true. As soon as the violent ones started pelting the border patrol there with rocks and then stormed their way through, then everyone who took advantage and followed them through (which would be ALL of them that are now on our border) are the same as what we see in looting situations here in the USA. The violent ones kick in doors and smash windows and then the rest follow them into the stores and help steal everything in sight. They reason that the items were there, so they figured they may as well take them.

 

[JosephZ]

Technically, all the migrants who entered Mexico's south border illegally are criminals. But no one wants to admit that.

Asylum seekers who cross the border illegally would be charged with improper entry by alien with a first offense carrying maximum fines of $50 to $250 and/or a six-month prison sentence. It's a misdemeanor.

I noticed earlier in the thread you mentioned this.

In the NW, however, many tribes are building casinos and selling tax-free liquor, cigarettes, and fireworks on their lands, which attract the "white people's" (i.e., non-tribal members) money. I personally love the bigger boom boom fireworks I can get there vs. regular fireworks stands, at much lower prices, too.

Did you transport those fireworks from the reservation? If so, you too would be doing something illegal and would also be considered a criminal. I googled the laws in Washington and found this.

Additionally, not all fireworks are created equally. Some fireworks, regardless of the time of year or whether or not there’s a ban in effect, are illegal. RCW 70.77.315 stipulates that “consumer fireworks which are classified as sky rockets, or missile-type rockets, firecrackers, salutes, or chasers as defined by the United States department of transportation and the federal consumer products safety commission” are not legal.

This is especially true if you’re purchasing fireworks on one of Washington’s many reservations; the laws around fireworks are different on reservations, and some fireworks may not be permitted on non-reservation land.

If you do get caught, your punishment will (as is the case in most instances of criminal justice) depend on the crime. Breaking any of Washington’s firework laws will result in a misdemeanor...
Just How Strict Are Washington's Firework Laws? | Lewis and Laws

I have no idea where you live exactly, but someone purchasing fireworks from a reservation and taking them to Seattle where they are banned would potentially face a much higher penalty than that of someone crossing the US border illegally.

 

[USincognito]

If that's your only refutation of the facts, well that's ok.

I have yet to see whether the claims are facts. Sec. Jillenbrand's report is automatically suspect given how many lies we've had from this administration and how much "be afraid of the brown menace" dog whistle horse manure we've had from Trump, his cronies and other apologists.

 

[Aldebaran]

I have yet to see whether the claims are facts. Sec. Jillenbrand's report is automatically suspect given how many lies we've had from this administration and how much "be afraid of the brown menace" dog whistle horse manure we've had from Trump, his cronies and other apologists.

More unfounded claims from the Trump haters.

 

[USincognito]

More unfounded claims from the Trump haters.

Your fantasies are quite amusing, but please don't project them on to me. Trump's been sounding that dog whistle since day one.

When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.​

 

[Aldebaran]

Your fantasies are quite amusing, but please don't project them on to me. Trump's been sounding that dog whistle since day one.

Fantasies? I'm not the one making accusations like, ""be afraid of the brown menace" dog whistle horse manure we've had from Trump".

Speak facts, not fantasies.

 

[USincognito]

Fantasies? I'm not the one making accusations like, ""be afraid of the brown menace" dog whistle horse manure we've had from Trump".

Speak facts, not fantasies.

When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.

 

[Aldebaran]

When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.

Well, now that you increased the font size and made it red, it's worth responding to.

Is Mexico's best people sneaking over the border illegally? Or are the ones with lots of problems? Do they leave those problems in Mexico, or do they bring them with them across the border? Who ends up dealing with those problems? Are they not bringing drugs with them? Is Mexico not a major source of the drugs that come into our country?

 

[USincognito]

Well, now that you increased the font size and made it red, it's worth responding to.

Is Mexico's best people sneaking over the border illegally? Or are the ones with lots of problems? Do they leave those problems in Mexico, or do they bring them with them across the border? Who ends up dealing with those problems? Are they not bringing drugs with them? Is Mexico not a major source of the drugs that come into our country?

Hmm, one wonders why, if all those brown people from Mexico are so bad that our capitalist class is hiring so many of them. I mean surely all those problems and all that raping and drug selling must be bad for the construction, fruit picking, meat packing and hospitality industries, right? Yet they keep hiring illegals in droves.

 

[Aldebaran]

Hmm, one wonders why, if all those brown people from Mexico are so bad that our capitalist class is hiring so many of them. I mean surely all those problems and all that raping and drug selling must be bad for the construction, fruit picking, meat packing and hospitality industries, right? Yet they keep hiring illegals in droves.

One can wonder why about that all they want, but it's not what we're discussing. If you want to talk about "brown people", which is a rather racist statement, perhaps you should start a thread about it.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Asylum seekers who cross the border illegally would be charged with improper entry by alien with a first offense carrying maximum fines of $50 to $250 and/or a six-month prison sentence. It's a misdemeanor.

Is that US law or Mexican law? They are lawbreakers in Mexico at the moment, not the US. Unless they are the ones who have tried to cross into the US illegally as well.

Did you transport those fireworks from the reservation? If so, you too would be doing something illegal and would also be considered a criminal. I googled the laws in Washington and found this.

Where I light the boom booms is none of your business, nor the topic of the thread.

 

[JosephZ]

Is that US law or Mexican law? They are lawbreakers in Mexico at the moment, not the US. Unless they are the ones who have tried to cross into the US illegally as well.

Unlike the US, it's not a criminal offense to cross the border into Mexico without a visa or proper documentation.

Where I light the boom booms is none of your business, nor the topic of the thread.

I mainly quoted your earlier comment to make a point about how we shouldn't be so quick to point our finger at others when we ourselves may not free of guilt ourselves.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Unlike the US, it's not a criminal offense to cross the border into Mexico without a visa or proper documentation.

Well that is just flat out incorrect. Nice try though.

I mainly quoted your earlier comment to make a point about how we shouldn't be so quick to point our finger at others when we ourselves may not free of guilt ourselves.

You are equating illegal border crossings to transporting illegal fireworks? Why not try to equate going 50 mph in a 45 mph zone too? Speeding and fireworks would not get a US citizen deported.

 

[JosephZ]

Well that is just flat out incorrect. Nice try though.

Illegal immigration was decriminalized in Mexico a decade ago.

Criminalization. In contrast to other major migrant detaining countries like the United States and Italy, Mexico does not impose penal sanctions for unauthorized entry or stay in the country.
countries - Global Detention Project | Mapping immigration detention around the world

The caravan members have also been given transit and humanitarian visas by the Mexican government, so they are not law breakers.

You are equating illegal border crossings to transporting illegal fireworks?

Yes, because US law considers first time offenders of crossing the border illegally as being guilty of a misdemeanor which is punishable by a fine and the potential for jail time. Transporting illegal fireworks is also a misdemeanor in many states, and there are some states where the penalties are much harsher for illegal firework possession or transport than that of crossing the border illegally.

Illegal fireworks have the potential to be dangerous and put the general public at risk.

At least eight people lost their lives in fireworks mishaps in 2017 while another 12,900 ended up in hospital emergency rooms with injuries.

The deaths in 2017 included a four-year old Wisconsin girl who died from shrapnel when a metal tube filled with sparklers exploded after being set off by her father in their yard.

Children under 15 years of age experienced about 36 percent of the injuries...
Fireworks Facts: 8 Deaths, 12,900 Injuries in 2017; $900M Sales Expected as States Ease Curbs

So when you said:

Technically, all the migrants who entered Mexico's south border illegally are criminals. But no one wants to admit that.

What you wrote about migrants could also be written about someone who purchases and transports fireworks in a state where they are illegal.

"Technically, all those who live in places where fireworks are banned or who transport them illegally are criminals. But no one wants to admit that."

I'm from North Carolina where many types of fireworks are banned, and I used to frequently travel to South Carolina to pick up some of the good ones. The ones that really go "Boom." While I was never caught doing this, I was still guilty of committing a crime and a criminal none the less. I also committed crimes far worse than this in my younger days, sometimes I was caught and charged for them, many I was not, but regardless, I was still guilty for each and every one of them.

Once again, I was only using that example to make a point about how we shouldn't be so quick to point our finger at others when we ourselves may not free of guilt ourselves. As for me, a person who has committed many crimes myself in the past, I can't condemn a man whose only crime is coming across the border of a country seeking a better opportunity for themselves or their family.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Illegal immigration was decriminalized in Mexico a decade ago.

Criminalization. In contrast to other major migrant detaining countries like the United States and Italy, Mexico does not impose penal sanctions for unauthorized entry or stay in the country.
countries - Global Detention Project | Mapping immigration detention around the world

The caravan members have also been given transit and humanitarian visas by the Mexican government, so they are not law breakers.

Mexico has deported a growing number of Central Americans in recent years, partly under pressure from the U.S. But Mexican officials have long said the Mexico-Guatemala border is porous and difficult to patrol. “There are a lot of informal entry points” along the river, a spokeswoman for Mexico’s migration agency said. Nonetheless, “those who entered the country illegally will be deported,” she said.
Caravan Heads North After Migrants Cross Into Mexico

Seems someone disagrees with you. I'll take their word for it over yours. If "they are not lawbreakers" as you say, then why does the spokeswoman characterize them as "illegal"? The punishment is deportation.

Your article even points it out. Let me help you with that:
Article 144 provides numerous grounds for removal from the country, including: 1) entering the country without proper documents or authorization; 2) re-entering the country after being deported and not having received authorisation for readmission; 3) falsely presenting oneself as a Mexican; 4) having been convicted of a serious crime or being considered a threat to national or public security; 5) providing false documents.

 

[JosephZ]

Seems someone disagrees with you. I'll take their word for it over yours.

Mexican President Calderón: ‘Illegal immigration is not a crime in Mexico.’

Here are a couple of other sources that go into some detail on the subject.

President Felipe Calderon, his administration chastised by foreign governments for how their citizens are treated, this week signed a new immigration law aimed at reducing the risks. The measure decriminalizes the act of entering the country without papers and entitles the undocumented to education and health services. It also promises a major overhaul of the scandal-plagued federal immigration agency.

The law requires immigration agents to undergo special training and vetting, and it establishes criminal penalties for agents who abuse migrants or violate their rights. It also seeks to streamline paperwork for migrants. Although an undocumented foreigner is not to be considered a criminal, he or she is required to obtain papers that might include a so-called humanitarian visa.
Mexico migrants: Mexico law aims to reduce risks to migrants passing through

In 2008, reforms decriminalized immigration violations, said Andrew Selee, who directs the Mexico Institute, a research and policy center at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in Washington, D.C.

Merely being present in Mexico without papers is a civil violation, not a criminal one, experts told us.

Violators are not arrested or put in jail, which is designated for criminals or those suspected of crimes. They are sent to detention facilities and undergo a separate administrative process.

The new legislation reaffirms that people who cross the border into Mexico without papers are guilty of a civil offense, not a criminal one, according to Knox and news reports. It emphasizes they have a right to health care and education.

It also draws tighter restrictions on who can detain illegal migrants. Before the May legislation, Mexican police could detain an illegal migrant and hand him over to national immigration authorities for deportation. Now, only those detected by national immigration authorities can be sent for deportation.

Mexican police are not allowed to stop people on the suspicion that they are in the country illegally, Knox said.

Since immigration violations are not criminal offenses, irregular migrants who are discovered are sent to a noncriminal detention facility, not jail. Their cases are not handled by the criminal courts, but by a separate administrative system.
Olens accuses Mexico of having harsher immigration laws than Georgia

If "they are not lawbreakers" as you say, then why does the spokeswoman characterize them as "illegal"? The punishment is deportation.

Because that would be the correct term to use:

illegal adjective
il·le·gal | \(ˌ)i(l)-ˈlē-gəl \

:not according to or authorized by law : UNLAWFUL, ILLICIT
also : not sanctioned by official rules

illegal noun: a person who enters or lives in a country without the documentation required for legal entry or residence
Definition of ILLEGAL

In Mexico since it is not a crime to enter the country illegally, those in the country illegally are not considered to be criminals. A criminal is someone who commits a crime.

Your article even points it out. Let me help you with that:
Article 144 provides numerous grounds for removal from the country, including: 1) entering the country without proper documents or authorization;

Yes, they will still deport people who enter the country with the proper documentation, but that doesn't make them a criminal. If they have a legitimate reason for being in the country, for example, fleeing persecution or violence, they will be allowed to stay.

Let's look back at what you said and how I responded.

Technically, all the migrants who entered Mexico's south border illegally are criminals. But no one wants to admit that.

Since entering Mexico illegally isn't a crime and the fact that those in the caravan have been issued transit and humanitarian visas, that statement is incorrect.

Unlike the US, it's not a criminal offense to cross the border into Mexico without a visa or proper documentation.

Well that is just flat out incorrect. Nice try though.

Once again, it's not a criminal offense to cross the border into Mexico without proper documentation. When a person is caught in Mexico who entered without proper documentation, they will be detained, have a hearing, and then it will be determined if they are eligible to stay in the country or be deported depending on the circumstances. If they are on their way to the US to seek asylum, they will be given either a transit visa or a humanitarian visa and be allowed to stay in the country.