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Meekness:Do you really know?

JimfromOhio

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I have always thought of it in a picture of a powerful horse under control in order to complete a task.


Far to often the verse in Matthew 5 is used to support the idea of weak, milktoast Christianity, and that is so far, and sadly, off base.
Yep. I like these quotes by A.W. Tozer...

Instead of poverty of spirit we find the rankest kind of pride;

instead of mourners we find pleasure seekers;

instead of meekness, arrogance;

instead of hunger after righteousness we hear men saying, `I am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing';

instead of mercy we find cruelty;

instead of purity of heart, corrupt imaginings;

instead of peacemakers we find men quarrelsome and resentful;

instead of rejoicing in mistreatment we find them fighting back with every weapon at their command.

Of this kind of moral stuff civilized society is composed.


______________________________________________
It might be a shock to some of us if we could know why we are disliked and why our testimony is rejected so violently. Could it be that we are guilty of a deep sinfulness of disposition that we just cannot keep hidden? Arrogance, lack of charity, contempt, self-righteousness, religious snobbery, fault-finding--and all this kept under careful restraint and disguised by a pious smile and synthetic good humor. This sort of thing is felt rather than understood by those who touch us in everyday life.
________________________________________________
The providential circumstances set up the lessons; the Teacher is wise and patient; only the disciple fails to profit.
________________________________________________

The enemy never quite knows how to deal with a humble man; he is so used to dealing with proud, stubborn people that a meek man upsets his timetable. And furthermore, the man of true humility has God fighting on his side--who can win against God?
_______________________________________________
 
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MrJim

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I have always thought of it in a picture of a powerful horse under control in order to complete a task.


Far to often the verse in Matthew 5 is used to support the idea of weak, milktoast Christianity, and that is so far, and sadly, off base.
Yet on the surface it can appear as weak/milktoast because denying self in our culture is looked at as being weak & foolish. Once the surface is scratched just a bit then the strength is shown. But what too is sadly off base is when this passage gets disregarded or explained away to a point of meaning nothing.
 
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PastorDiane

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HI gang, I have not been on for a week as, I gotr so tired of the fighting, that has been going on and asked my congregation to give the forum a rest....but some told me that my thread on meekness had taken off so I thought I would give you the actual definition of the word.

Meekness, in the aramaic.the greek.english....is the word PRATOS...IT LITERALLY MEANS TO TAKE AN ACTIVE DISLIKE TOWARDS EVIL DOING IN STEAD OF AN IDIFFERENT ATTITUDE TOWARDS SIN, THE DIFINITION FOLLWS DEEPER BY SAYING..."SO THAT THE BELIEVER WILL KEEP HIMSELF FROM FALLING IN THE SAME TENMPTATION AFFORDING HIM A REFRESHED HUNGER FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS" so there you have it, the bible examples are Jesus whipping the money changers out of the temple, old testement it would be moses with all of his anger and response.....
 
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Nadiine

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HI gang, I have not been on for a week as, I gotr so tired of the fighting, that has been going on and asked my congregation to give the forum a rest....but some told me that my thread on meekness had taken off so I thought I would give you the actual definition of the word.

Meekness, in the aramaic.the greek.english....is the word PRATOS...IT LITERALLY MEANS TO TAKE AN ACTIVE DISLIKE TOWARDS EVIL DOING IN STEAD OF AN IDIFFERENT ATTITUDE TOWARDS SIN, THE DIFINITION FOLLWS DEEPER BY SAYING..."SO THAT THE BELIEVER WILL KEEP HIMSELF FROM FALLING IN THE SAME TENMPTATION AFFORDING HIM A REFRESHED HUNGER FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS" so there you have it, the bible examples are Jesus whipping the money changers out of the temple, old testement it would be moses with all of his anger and response.....
Hello =)
I'm a little confused? When I look up meekness in the Strongs from most verses, it doesn't mean that, but is 'gentleness'

#4236
1) gentleness, mildness, meekness

A search on the root word provided this explanation:
Meekness toward God is that disposition of spirit in which we accept His dealings with us as good, and therefore without disputing or resisting.
In the OT, the meek are those wholly relying on God rather than their own strength to defend against injustice.
Thus, meekness toward evil people means knowing God is permitting the injuries they inflict, that He is using them to purify His elect, and that He will deliver His elect in His time (Isa 41:17, Luk 18:1-8).

Gentleness or meekness is the opposite to self-assertiveness and self-interest. It stems from trust in God's goodness and control over the situation. The gentle person is not occupied with self at all. This is a work of the Holy Spirit, not of the human will
(Gal 5:23).

Not being disrespectful, I'm just a little confused unless different passages use another word meaning.
:wave:
 
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PastorDiane

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Hello =)
I'm a little confused? When I look up meekness in the Strongs from most verses, it doesn't mean that, but is 'gentleness'

#4236
1) gentleness, mildness, meekness

A search on the root word provided this explanation:


Not being disrespectful, I'm just a little confused unless different passages use another word meaning.
:wave:


yes this is the problem, if you just pull the one word the greek is prataos but when you use it in a sentence the tense changes to pratos (a) missing, and with the prefix and the subject of the sentence changing the meaning, so you get a different expanation. But to make it more confusing you are still correct in that you can do nothing in the new testament withoutl ove......
 
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PastorDiane

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yes this is the problem, if you just pull the one word the greek is prataos but when you use it in a sentence the tense changes to pratos (a) missing, and with the prefix and the subject of the sentence changing the meaning, so you get a different expanation. But to make it more confusing you are still correct in that you can do nothing in the new testament withoutl ove......

to add alittle more to this to give you an even better understanding, instead of just pulling out the story of Jesus whipping out the money changers, you can view the scriptures that state "you who are more spiritual (knowing right from wrong through the HOly Spirit) correcting such a one (someone who is in error) that they may recover themselves from the snare of the devil (you notice you can not fix them they have to fix themselves) so you see as you grow in meekness it is through the depth of the word empowered by the holy spirit causing you to hunger for a new infilling of the word lest yourself be tripped up. That is the full depth of this word..... you realize in order to make any teaching a doctrine you have to have a thread in the old as well as the new.....and if you go to Leviticus you will find scriptures on warning your brother of sin so that the blood of him does not fall on your hands, and once he is warned than he is also responsible for himself to get out of his error.....
 
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PastorDiane

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to add alittle more to this to give you an even better understanding, instead of just pulling out the story of Jesus whipping out the money changers, you can view the scriptures that state "you who are more spiritual (knowing right from wrong through the HOly Spirit) correcting such a one (someone who is in error) that they may recover themselves from the snare of the devil (you notice you can not fix them they have to fix themselves) so you see as you grow in meekness it is through the depth of the word empowered by the holy spirit causing you to hunger for a new infilling of the word lest yourself be tripped up. That is the full depth of this word..... you realize in order to make any teaching a doctrine you have to have a thread in the old as well as the new.....and if you go to Leviticus you will find scriptures on warning your brother of sin so that the blood of him does not fall on your hands, and once he is warned than he is also responsible for himself to get out of his error.....

They fix themselves through the word and the power of the Holy Sprit, but they have to make the decision to do it
 
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PastorDiane

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to add alittle more to this to give you an even better understanding, instead of just pulling out the story of Jesus whipping out the money changers, you can view the scriptures that state "you who are more spiritual (knowing right from wrong through the HOly Spirit) correcting such a one (someone who is in error) that they may recover themselves from the snare of the devil (you notice you can not fix them they have to fix themselves) so you see as you grow in meekness it is through the depth of the word empowered by the holy spirit causing you to hunger for a new infilling of the word lest yourself be tripped up. That is the full depth of this word..... you realize in order to make any teaching a doctrine you have to have a thread in the old as well as the new.....and if you go to Leviticus you will find scriptures on warning your brother of sin so that the blood of him does not fall on your hands, and once he is warned than he is also responsible for himself to get out of his error.....

They fix themselves through the word and the power of the Holy Sprit, but they have to make the decision to do it
 
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IamRedeemed

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Yes, I think you might be as shocked as David was when Samuel told him
that HE WAS that man that David said should be condemned.

Selah
(which means, "think on these things")



Yep. I like these quotes by A.W. Tozer...

Instead of poverty of spirit we find the rankest kind of pride;

instead of mourners we find pleasure seekers;

instead of meekness, arrogance;

instead of hunger after righteousness we hear men saying, `I am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing';

instead of mercy we find cruelty;

instead of purity of heart, corrupt imaginings;

instead of peacemakers we find men quarrelsome and resentful;

instead of rejoicing in mistreatment we find them fighting back with every weapon at their command.

Of this kind of moral stuff civilized society is composed.


______________________________________________
It might be a shock to some of us if we could know why we are disliked and why our testimony is rejected so violently. Could it be that we are guilty of a deep sinfulness of disposition that we just cannot keep hidden? Arrogance, lack of charity, contempt, self-righteousness, religious snobbery, fault-finding--and all this kept under careful restraint and disguised by a pious smile and synthetic good humor. This sort of thing is felt rather than understood by those who touch us in everyday life.
________________________________________________
The providential circumstances set up the lessons; the Teacher is wise and patient; only the disciple fails to profit.
________________________________________________

The enemy never quite knows how to deal with a humble man; he is so used to dealing with proud, stubborn people that a meek man upsets his timetable. And furthermore, the man of true humility has God fighting on his side--who can win against God?
_______________________________________________
 
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IamRedeemed

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Very interesting Word study. I look forward
to delving into it. Thank you :)




HI gang, I have not been on for a week as, I gotr so tired of the fighting, that has been going on and asked my congregation to give the forum a rest....but some told me that my thread on meekness had taken off so I thought I would give you the actual definition of the word.

Meekness, in the aramaic.the greek.english....is the word PRATOS...IT LITERALLY MEANS TO TAKE AN ACTIVE DISLIKE TOWARDS EVIL DOING IN STEAD OF AN IDIFFERENT ATTITUDE TOWARDS SIN, THE DIFINITION FOLLWS DEEPER BY SAYING..."SO THAT THE BELIEVER WILL KEEP HIMSELF FROM FALLING IN THE SAME TENMPTATION AFFORDING HIM A REFRESHED HUNGER FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS" so there you have it, the bible examples are Jesus whipping the money changers out of the temple, old testement it would be moses with all of his anger and response.....

Hello =)
I'm a little confused? When I look up meekness in the Strongs from most verses, it doesn't mean that, but is 'gentleness'

#4236
1) gentleness, mildness, meekness

A search on the root word provided this explanation:


Not being disrespectful, I'm just a little confused unless different passages use another word meaning.
:wave:

yes this is the problem, if you just pull the one word the greek is prataos but when you use it in a sentence the tense changes to pratos (a) missing, and with the prefix and the subject of the sentence changing the meaning, so you get a different expanation. But to make it more confusing you are still correct in that you can do nothing in the new testament withoutl ove......

to add alittle more to this to give you an even better understanding, instead of just pulling out the story of Jesus whipping out the money changers, you can view the scriptures that state "you who are more spiritual (knowing right from wrong through the HOly Spirit) correcting such a one (someone who is in error) that they may recover themselves from the snare of the devil (you notice you can not fix them they have to fix themselves) so you see as you grow in meekness it is through the depth of the word empowered by the holy spirit causing you to hunger for a new infilling of the word lest yourself be tripped up. That is the full depth of this word..... you realize in order to make any teaching a doctrine you have to have a thread in the old as well as the new.....and if you go to Leviticus you will find scriptures on warning your brother of sin so that the blood of him does not fall on your hands, and once he is warned than he is also responsible for himself to get out of his error.....

They fix themselves through the word and the power of the Holy Sprit, but they have to make the decision to do it
 
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IamRedeemed

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Well, I looked up both meekness and meek, in the old and new testament and compared it in both the Hebrew and Greek and different numbers assigned to the variable uses and found pretty much the same thing as Nadiine found across the board and the common words were gentleness and humility and some of them had additional adjectives such as afflicted and oppressed.....

I also know that we have good reason to believe that Jesus spoke in Aramaic, although it is my understanding that we have no original transcriptions written in Aramaic though, unless I don't have an accurate understanding. So, if I am inaccurate in my understanding, please help me with that, as I do want to know.

And if we do, I guess I am not understanding how the context could change so drastically?

I also, am not trying to cause a problem, or second guess you, just want to understand better how the interpretation in Aramaic came to be and why it seems so different from all of the forms it was used in OT and NT, in Hebrew and in Greek?

Thank you. I am still very interested in the
word study. :wave:

God bless.
 
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Nadiine

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Well, I looked up both meekness and meek, in the old and new testament and compared it in both the Hebrew and Greek and different numbers assigned to the variable uses and found pretty much the same thing as Nadiine found across the board and the common words were gentleness and humility and some of them had additional adjectives such as afflicted and oppressed.....

I also know that we have good reason to believe that Jesus spoke in Aramaic, although it is my understanding that we have no original transcriptions written in Aramaic though, unless I don't have an accurate understanding. So, if I am inaccurate in my understanding, please help me with that, as I do want to know.

And if we do, I guess I am not understanding how the context could change so drastically?

I also, am not trying to cause a problem, or second guess you, just want to understand better how the interpretation in Aramaic came to be and why it seems so different from all of the forms it was used in OT and NT, in Hebrew and in Greek?

Thank you. I am still very interested in the
word study. :wave:

God bless.
One other thing I had heard a reputable teacher preach before, was that Jesus didn't actually speak in Aramaic at all.
I was surprised when I heard that. So I think some even differ on accepting that He spoke in ARamic at all as well.

I do know context means a whole lot - in context I do think some of them mean literally gentleness or mildness with basic humility. Unless they all mean the same in every context?

It does confuse me a little bit. :wave:
 
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Simon_Templar

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Well it a cultural thing really~Americans take the stand for "liberty and justice for all", we were taught at a young age that , yet nothing in the New Testament teaches that these are indeed "inalienable" rights....yet it's the core of what we are, we have these "God-given" rights and the right to defend them and you can't step on my turf physically nor intellectually without gettin' a fight...it's the antithesis of "denying yourself, pick up your cross and follow Me".
Actually the very concept of inalienable rights is based on the bible. It was formulated by men who knew the bible inside and out and used the bible as the basis of their social theory.

In fact, the concept upon which America was founded of liberty and justice for all is the heart of meekness when you really get down to it.
The defacto principle of the world up to that point had been that the strong ruled the weak, and might made right.

There was a tradition within political philosophy that regarded the rule of law and the protection of the people as the goals of government but it had, for the most part, never been realized in practice.

So essentially the order of government was the very opposite of meekness. It was unadulterated, uncontroled strength crushing opposition and doing whatever it desired.

The entire principle upon which the american ethic was based, was the idea that the strength of government must be restrained so that the people can be protected.
Further, the American's who lead the revolt were not simple rebels out for their own glory and their own power. They deeply respected authority and, right or wrong, they had very intricate and indepth thoughts about what made a statement of independance justifiable and what did not.
Their actions were not selfish, but were based on deep conviction and the persuit of something they deeply cared about, a just government that allowed people to pursue the duties that God had laid upon them.

That ultimately is the source of inalienable rights. God has given all men duties which he requires of them, as a result all men have the right to pursue fulfilling those duties to the best of their ability as their conscience dictates.
One of the keys to understanding the biblical meekness is that meekness in the bible is understood to be toward God. Those who are meek toward God. Let alone unbelievers, I have seen many believers who demand their rights from God, they demand that their words be heard, they demand that their petitions be granted and the even go so far as to call God a liar if he doesn't give them what they want.
The truth is that while God has given us rights among men, we have no rights against God. He is the owner of all. Thus if God puts us in a position where our rights are comprimised, that is his perogative and we must simply accept it and do as he directs us to do.

When we look at the history of God's people we find both instances in which God's people have been oppressed, and God directed them to fight their oppressors and they one spectacular victories, and we see situations in which God directed them not to fight their oppressors and the suffered terrible things, but they still won great victories, but victories of a different kind.

The secret there is simply knowing the times, and knowing what God has directed you to do. Are you in the situation of the Macabees? or the Zealots?

Meekness in no way automaticaly requires surrender to death and persucution because you do not know from the outset whether God has called you to martyrdom, or to war.

Now, what you guys are saying is very true of the individualism that has invaded american thought. That is not the truth upon which we were founded, but every truth has its abuse. Every strength has its corresponding weakness. Individuality is important and it is a feature of how God made us. Individualism is based on selfishness and self exaltation.
 
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IamRedeemed

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Yes, I for one am not dogmatic on that at all, and I should have said we have reason to believe Jesus "may have" spoken in Aramaic. (in all actuality, I am sure He was able to speak in any language, but nevertheless, not the piont hehe) As I said before, we don't have any transcriptions in that language to go by, but the Jews knew that Peter was one of those who were with the "Galilean", because he spoke as one of them, which may have been his dialect. The Bible itself, does not provide us enough information to be dogmatic about it at any rate. Ideas regarding it are via other sources of the times and languages and dialects of the times, which personally, I have not spent a lot of time studying, so I would not be able to refute it one way or the other, but since I did do the word study on this particular word, and looked at it in all of the texts it is used in, in both OT and NT and in both Greek and Hebrew and they were pretty much the same across the board, I still am curious as to where the interpretation in the Aramaic comes in and curious to understand why the interpretation is so different from the other two languages the word was used in.




One other thing I had heard a reputable teacher preach before, was that Jesus didn't actually speak in Aramaic at all.
I was surprised when I heard that. So I think some even differ on accepting that He spoke in ARamic at all as well.

I do know context means a whole lot - in context I do think some of them mean literally gentleness or mildness with basic humility. Unless they all mean the same in every context?

It does confuse me a little bit. :wave:
 
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Simon_Templar

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Its pretty easily established that Jesus spoke Aramaic given that he is quoted in Aramaic in the bible.

Aramaic and Hebrew are close, so some try to argue that he spoke Hebrew not Aramaic. However, some of the quotes of Jesus given in the bible can not be in hebrew.

The most well known example is probably Jesus' cry upon the cross "Eloi Eloi, lama sabacthani". Sabacthani is aramaic. The rest of the phrase works in either aramaic or hebrew, but the word sabacthani doesn't exist in hebrew.

There are other examples as well.
That in no way means Jesus DIDN'T speak hebrew. In fact, I'm fairly certain Jesus spoke Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, and possibly latin.

The simple fact is that the common people of the region, at that time, spoke Aramaic as their daily language. If Jesus wanted to converse with anyone, he would have done so in Aramaic.
Hebrew was learned and spoken pretty much only as a religious language and was only used for studying the scriptures and for liturgical purposes in synagogue. I have no doubt that Jesus used Hebrew in those contexts.

However, it is also evident from the New Testament that Jesus and the apostles used the septuagint version of the OT which was written in Greek.

Lastly, Jesus conversed with Pilate without the means of an interpeter. This means that Either Pilate spoke greek and Jesus spoke greek, or Jesus spoke Latin as well.
Usually Roman officers who were stationed in the east spoke greek because it was a virtually universal language at the time. However, within the military organization, the official language was latin.

One of my favorite scenes from the Passion of the Christ is when Jesus speaks to Pilate in Latin and Pilate is kind of surprised at first.
 
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MrJim

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Actually the very concept of inalienable rights is based on the bible. It was formulated by men who knew the bible inside and out and used the bible as the basis of their social theory.

In fact, the concept upon which America was founded of liberty and justice for all is the heart of meekness when you really get down to it.
The defacto principle of the world up to that point had been that the strong ruled the weak, and might made right.

There was a tradition within political philosophy that regarded the rule of law and the protection of the people as the goals of government but it had, for the most part, never been realized in practice.

So essentially the order of government was the very opposite of meekness. It was unadulterated, uncontroled strength crushing opposition and doing whatever it desired.

The entire principle upon which the american ethic was based, was the idea that the strength of government must be restrained so that the people can be protected.
Further, the American's who lead the revolt were not simple rebels out for their own glory and their own power. They deeply respected authority and, right or wrong, they had very intricate and indepth thoughts about what made a statement of independance justifiable and what did not.
Their actions were not selfish, but were based on deep conviction and the persuit of something they deeply cared about, a just government that allowed people to pursue the duties that God had laid upon them.

That ultimately is the source of inalienable rights. God has given all men duties which he requires of them, as a result all men have the right to pursue fulfilling those duties to the best of their ability as their conscience dictates.
One of the keys to understanding the biblical meekness is that meekness in the bible is understood to be toward God. Those who are meek toward God. Let alone unbelievers, I have seen many believers who demand their rights from God, they demand that their words be heard, they demand that their petitions be granted and the even go so far as to call God a liar if he doesn't give them what they want.
The truth is that while God has given us rights among men, we have no rights against God. He is the owner of all. Thus if God puts us in a position where our rights are comprimised, that is his perogative and we must simply accept it and do as he directs us to do.

When we look at the history of God's people we find both instances in which God's people have been oppressed, and God directed them to fight their oppressors and they one spectacular victories, and we see situations in which God directed them not to fight their oppressors and the suffered terrible things, but they still won great victories, but victories of a different kind.

The secret there is simply knowing the times, and knowing what God has directed you to do. Are you in the situation of the Macabees? or the Zealots?

Meekness in no way automaticaly requires surrender to death and persucution because you do not know from the outset whether God has called you to martyrdom, or to war.

Now, what you guys are saying is very true of the individualism that has invaded american thought. That is not the truth upon which we were founded, but every truth has its abuse. Every strength has its corresponding weakness. Individuality is important and it is a feature of how God made us. Individualism is based on selfishness and self exaltation.

Well I disagree here on a couple different levels, but then as an anabaptist you would expect that right ;)

Anyhow, peace little brother:wave:
 
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PastorDiane

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wow, first of all Jesus , did not speak aramaic, it is a written language and the NT scriptures were written by the apostles, so that should take care of that issue.

secondlyI gave you the translation of the word using all the pretenses and the rest of the sentence. You can be come dangerous if you rely on the strongs for each word, when in use of language the meaning changes with pre and post tense words which I stated.

Thirdly, I never stated that it wasnot power undercontrol, because that is what it is, but it is in no way mild. Other wise you negate most of scripture as Jesus was stated as being the meekess....and he was very holy in the things he said and did, which included an awfull lot of rebuking......

so please read and consult the Holy Sprit before you jump on these self understood replys.....and if you recall I already stated that all of you had a partial understanding of the truth in this area......
 
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