Medjugorje

[ThereseOfLisieux]

I knew you were out there somewhere.

 

[King of the Nations]

Is he married?

(Yes. with two kids I believe.)

Greg

 

[bostonlass]

(Yes. with two kids I believe.)

Greg

Geesh! Just curious. Can't imagine a husband with visions every so often!!! Sure would keep us on our toes!

 

[King of the Nations]

Why would a parish priest be deciding where he would prefer that Our Lady appear. Does he decide these things? Has there ever been any other case where visionaries (or in this case a priest who isnn't even a visionary) tells her where she will appear.

Oh... ...Ok. I see what you're saying now...

Ummm...In a manner of speaking, yes. The parish priest would decide these things in sofar as he is the one in charge of the Church, not, as awesome as she is, Our Lady. There is, in my feeble way of explaining it, a fineline interplay here. On the one hand, Our Lady is literally Queen of the Cosmos, and yet, she obviously defers to the Church with most things because the hierarchy are the ones in charge of administering it. If Fr. Jozo were doing what he did for "nefarious", or "shifty" purposes, Our Lady might well have continued to appear to the kids whereever she wanted to. But the fact that Fr. Jozo was (presumably) simply exercising his pastoral duty...

As Bridget noted, the visonaries are literally all over the place these days. Our Lady appears to them whereever they are.

Why are they concerned that people will stop coming? Wouldn't this cause visionaries as themselves to be concerned that Our Lady might not appear unless they go to where she has asked them to to? Again this doesn't make sense. In the past the visionary has always followed Our Lady, Our Lady does not follow the visionaries.

Mmmm, I dont think it's quite that simple. In fact, if you examine Fatima, for example, I think you'll find evidence to the contrary.

Why the concern about people not coming? Because word had gotten out that the appartions were taking place on the hill. Let's be real. It's not like any time anything at all happens in the area, the visonaries all get together and put out a press bulletin, saying, "Ok, now the schedule of events for the upcoming week are..." or that everyone is just going to sort of collectively "feel" like Our Lady is going to appear here now and there tomorrow and in another spot the next day...

So, if, all of a sudden, the visionaries were showing up in church and not on the hill...Eventually word would get around, but, like I said...

Know what I mean?

And maybe the visionaries would have been concerned about our Lady not appearing to them if they weren't on the hill, yes. That's a possibility. But as is suggested in this post...It's not as if Our Lady steps into situations like this and says, "Ok, priests, bishops, step aside. Momma's here..." Know what I mean?

If there is nothing odd about the visionaries and the Priest changing the location of the apparitions then why are the concocting a story that doesn't mention the fact that it wasn't Our Lady who made the change? Wouldn't it be easier just to tell the truth if this doesn't detract from their credibility?

I just re-read that snip-it, and, again, am having to strain a bit to see things from the "shifty side". Since the snip-it you've provided is completely bare of context, the answer could be any number of different things. I, first of all, dont see any "concocting" going on in just the four senteces you provided. All I see Father asking the kids what they're going to say to people about the apparent change of venue and them answering and him going, "Ok.".....

Maybe he was testing them. (See below.) Maybe he was just plain good ole fashioned curious about what they would say...?

Please tell me, does this not make you suspicious?

I am by no means an "expert" on Medjugorje, but from what I have gleaned from the place (having been there three times, met with one of the visionaries here twice, and absorbed a whole truckload of information from a man who has been there about 25 times now - literally), I am not suspicious, no. As demonstrated, when I read that passage the first time, I couldnt figure out what it was that you were inferring from it that was "shady". All I saw was a pastor doing his duty.

I dont know about specifics in this situation. I know that the communists were not big on any sort of religious expression and even were after the children for a while. Perhaps Father was concerned that if things continued on the hill, they would get noticed by all the wrong people and get themselves into deep water, so he said, looking around nervously for their sakes, "Um...I have an idea, dear children. Why dont you hang out here for a while?" Know what I mean?

I dont know. If I remember correctly, Father actually actively disbelieved that the apparitions were real when they first began. Maybe this was him instead simply testing the children, or wanting to get them out of the spotlight for everyone else's sake...??

Could be any number of things.

*Shrug*

In the end, of course, the final judgment on Medjugorje is left to the Church.

All I can tell you is that, meanwhile, there is a massive amount of positive fruit coming from the place, and our late Holy Father was a major devotee himself. Because of the urgent nature of what's being said from Medjugorje, it's really worth taking note of. No, the Church does not require belief in even those apparitions that have been formally approved. But, if I may, an analogy...

When you're thirty years old and married (for example), having mom at home to cook and change the kids diapers and all of that is not necessary for living a healthy upright life, no. But when mom comes knocking at your door and says, "Listen, children. I have a very urgent message to share with you..."

I hope this has been helpful.

Greg

 

[ThereseOfLisieux]

[/size][/font]

I hope this has been helpful.

Greg

Yes, absolutely.

I have not done much research on Mejugorge, I have done a little reading on the web site, and I am now reading some material that was posted about the other side of the arguement.

My purpose of posting these things is to get a response from those who firmly believe in their authenticity. I don't know what to think overall yet.

I still think that this looks suspicious, but if everything else in the end pans out in my opinion, this would not be a point that would in itself make this all a hoax.

Thank you for your input.

 

[ThereseOfLisieux]

Mmmm, I dont think it's quite that simple. In fact, if you examine Fatima, for example, I think you'll find evidence to the contrary.

As I recall Our Lady told the children at Fatima to meet her at the Cova Da Aria (sp?) each time that the visions occured. There were other visions later that Lucia received, but the ones that were specifically scheduled for a time and place occured at that time and place.

Am I incorrect, if so, please remind me of the circumstances.

 

[King of the Nations]

As I recall Our Lady told the children at Fatima to meet her at the Cova Da Aria (sp?) each time that the visions occured. There were other visions later that Lucia received, but the ones that were specifically scheduled for a time and place occured at that time and place.

Am I incorrect, if so, please remind me of the circumstances.

Sorry, I'm too foggy on this one.

It just seems to me that there have, indeed, been other instances of similar experiences where visions would normally happen at certain locations, but then church authorities (or something else) would intervene and they would then take place elsehwhere. I dont know. Maybe it isn't Fatima that I'm thinking of, but it seems to me, at least in general, that this circumstance is not unique to Medjugorje.

As far as "knowing for sure", obviously we'll all know when the Church makes her final judgment. The only potential problem with this is that, if the messages of Medjugorje are, in fact, true...We're in for a wild ride ahead that we all need to be preparing for now. Our Lady has actually said that the apparitions will not be approved until after, I believe, the second secret has unfolded and happened. This is way, way late in the game. The time to prepare is now. Fortunately, this can be done whether you believe in Medjugorje or not.

1) Pray (especially the rosary)
2) Fast
3) Adore and receive Christ in the Eucharist
4) Frequent the Sacrament of confession
5) Read the Bible

For what it's worth, I (and a friend of mine who has been there a few times also) suspect that something is about to happen at Medjugorje that is going to draw a lot of attention. Not the end of the apparitions yet, but something that will draw the attention of a great part of the the world and make people really start to wonder...

I dont know. Maybe not. But for reasons that are hard to explain...Keep an eye out....

Our Lady, Queen of Peace, pray for your sons and daughters.

Greg

 

[ThereseOfLisieux]

I found this on Fatima. This shows that Our Lady appeared in a different location to tell the children to go "again" to the Cova on the 13th. This is because they had been told that they had recieved the last of the apparitions. Then she told them where to go to see the miracle.

Mary specifically told Lucia not to tell anyone about the secret at this stage, apart from Francisco, before continuing: "When you pray the Rosary, say after each mystery: O my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fire of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those who are most in need." After assuring Lucia that there was nothing more, Mary disappeared off into the distance.

August 1917

As 13 August approached, the story of the apparitions had reached the anti-religious secular press, and while this ensured that the whole country knew about Fatima, it also meant that many biased and negative reports were circulating. The children were kidnapped on the morning of the 13th by the Mayor of Vila Nova de Ourem, Arturo Santos. They were interrogated about the secret; but despite his threats and promises of money, they refused to divulge it. In the afternoon they were moved to the local prison and threatened with death but determined that they would die rather than reveal the secret.

On August 19, Lucia, Francisco and Jacinta were assembled at a place called Valinhos, near Fatima, late in the afternoon, when they again saw Mary, who spoke to Lucia: "Go again to the Cova da Iria on the 13th and continue to say the Rosary every day." Mary also said she would perform a miracle, so all would believe, and that if they had not been kidnapped it would have been even greater.http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/appariti/fatima.html#anchor121905

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/appariti/fatima.html#anchor121905

 

[plainswolf]

When Medj. was first made known many of us were very excited about it... But we all naturally hold reservations at least for a time, but in this case as time went on we began to understand that something seemed amiss.. I agree that the Church will be the authority on this, but I see no real comparison between this case and Fatima at all. As it was said of Medjugorjie by others who do not see it as coming from God:

"We KNOW our Mother’s voice. We have heard her speak in the Gospels, on Tepeyac Hill, at the Cova da Iria, at Massabielle and in other hallowed spots on this earth. We recognize her phrases, her tones and her cadences. And we know an imposter when we hear one."

Now granted this is just my opinion but concerning Medj. but one of the things I noticed was the nature of the language that struck me as off from all other such approved events such as Lourdes when Our Lady said: "Penance, penance, penance! Kiss the ground for sinners.." Our lady does not waste manifesting herself for trifle reasons, nor to constantly reiterating the same things such as talks of religious unity, and when she speaks, she speaks only what is necessary concerning the purpose of her visit and anything beyond that she draws by light of grace the seers into a more intimate and unspoken experience with the mysteries of God. Such as she did with the seers of Fatima when they saw themselves in the light of God. And this always has the most profound effect upon the lives of the seer/s and their sanctity.

For instance, one of the seers of Fatima, Fransisco Marto was so deeply affected by this that he would frequently say as many as six rosaries per day and when asked what he wanted to do, what he wanted to be when he grew up such as a doctor, or even a priest, this little 9 year old boy's only reply was that he didn't want to become any of these things, "I just want to die and go to Heaven" was his direct answer.

One of the major criteria for judging such events as supernatural or not, besides others, is the study of the seers themselves and of their conduct.

Saitn Bernadette, the seer of Lourdes became renowned for her sanctity, as did the children of Fatima. It seems that once one has such a supernatural experience, they are changed forever, and the trappings of the world no longer have appeal because they have been given such incredible grace and mystical understanding into the mysteries of our Faith.

J.M.J.
Mark

 

[King of the Nations]

Hi Plains,

Now granted this is just my opinion but concerning Medj. but one of the things I noticed was the nature of the language that struck me as off from all other such approved events such as Lourdes when Our Lady said: "Penance, penance, penance! Kiss the ground for sinners.." Our lady does not waste manifesting herself for trifle reasons, nor to constantly reiterating the same things such as talks of religious unity, and when she speaks, she speaks only what is necessary concerning the purpose of her visit and anything beyond that she draws by light of grace the seers into a more intimate and unspoken experience with the mysteries of God.

Sorry, could you expand on this a bit? Meaning, what specifics of Medjugorje contrdict your thoughts on what should be happening there?

Such as she did with the seers of Fatima when they saw themselves in the light of God. And this always has the most profound effect upon the lives of the seer/s and their sanctity.

For instance, one of the seers of Fatima, Fransisco Marto was so deeply affected by this that he would frequently say as many as six rosaries per day and when asked what he wanted to do, what he wanted to be when he grew up such as a doctor, or even a priest, this little 9 year old boy's only reply was that he didn't want to become any of these things, "I just want to die and go to Heaven" was his direct answer.

One of the major criteria for judging such events as supernatural or not, besides others, is the study of the seers themselves and of their conduct.

Absolutely. Here's an interview with Ivan D. that should give you a good glimpse (however brief) of how its' affected him...

Parts of An Interview With Visionary Ivan Dragicevic
From the Medjugorje Newsletter, by Weible Columns




Do you think it of vital importance how the visionaries lead their married lives?

Undoubtedly, we know that the eyes of the world are upon us, and so we must be an example for others. We must show ourselves attending Holy Mass, receiving Holy Communion, praying together, and having time for one another. In short, living according to the wishes of Our Lady.

Did the Gospa want you to get married and have a family?

God and the Gospa left the possibility open for us to decide freely. We chose this path and with the help of our daily prayer, we hope to succeed in it.

Do you intend to stay in Medjugorje or will you eventually go to the United States?

My wife and I put in the forefront our work with youth. We will go where we are called. All things considered, I would prefer to remain in Medjugorje dedicated to being with the pilgrims experiencing Our Lady's messages to them.

The Gospa speaks to you daily. Does She say anything special? Does She confide secrets to you or do you simply pray together?

Our Lady tells me nothing special. We converse and pray together for peace and world conversion. The Gospa guides my path as a mother does. As surprising as it may seem, I can tell you without exaggeration that every apparition is a new and unique experience. Many times the pilgrims complain that the Gospa repeats so many times: "Pray, pray!" It's true, but every call to prayer is a new invitation. If Our Lady says: "My children are sleeping, but it is important that they awake", we must understand this as a new call. Every message contains something new and gives us a new opportunity to change ourselves and take a new road.

The Gospa said, that the time of Her apparitions is a time rich in grace. Has She also said something about the coming of Jesus?

I must keep quiet about many things, but it's true that this time is a time rich with graces. Every day is a grace, but we can only open ourselves to this grace through prayer. Without our prayers nothing will happen. It is equally important to live the messages. Nobody can be so presumptuous as to believe that peace is something natural. Peace is much more a grace that is given to us.

Ivan, I ask you for a final word for our readers

I think it is very important that we understand the heart of the messages. The Gospa also calls us to faith, love, conversion, prayer, fasting, and penitence. But these don't have to be empty words, if we will only give them life in our lives. I wish for all the friends of Medjugorje to find the strength to decide irrevocably for God and for prayer, just as the Gospa asks us. No one can judge anybody, but we must begin to work in ourselves for our own conversion. By our prayer and by our lives, each one of us must be a sign and thus become a missionary of Our Lady.

========

I'll see if I can track down other similar reports. It seems to me that it wasn't too long ago (a few years?) that one of the other visionaries (Mirjana) was seen to be saddened after our Lady appeared to her one day and when asked what was wrong, she mentioned that it's just very difficult to essentially experience Heaven and then come back and live life on earth...

All the visionaries have been touched in this way, it seems, as, you're right, it should be....

Peace,

Greg

 

[plainswolf]

Hi King!

For beginners, simply comapre the nature of the language and the purposes of it to Lourdes and to Fatima, secondly, obviously our lady is appearing to those seers more frequently than all the greatest saints in Church history. Over 20 years now and visits everyday? thirdly, Mary is always "thanking" them for responding to her call? Even when Lucy of Fatima would prostrate herself on the ground in front of the Blessed Sacrament Our Lady's response was "at least you try to console Me". but never "Thank you".. for that should be the other way around. But as has been pointed out in here before this very well could be a translation mis-understanding..

Fatima had a very specific and important purpose which was confirmed by the miracle of the sun which was witnessed by 70,000 people including even atheists, etc.. God was getting the attention of the world in a very BIG way. And even for a message as important for the world as was Fatima, time and idle chat by Our Lady was almost non-existant. The message was given, the request was made and that was pretty much it..

And don't get me wrong it's great if he has a good family life and does much good, that is to be commendable indeed. But in that is also where an inconsitency lay, in almost all cases I am aware of, the seer/s would take every measure to shun themselves from the world. After experiencing such mystical understanding, experience and intuitions of the love of God nothing on earth appealed much to them anymore. Saint Bernadette had a suitor at the time as well but she rather entered the convent and prefered a life of penance, since ,uch of earthly love, of marriage simply did not appeal to her whatsoever after experiencing the wonders of divine love.

As far as I understand, and I could very well be wrong, but the apparations muct cease before the Church can judge them. And if Our Lady has some important message for the world, then they would most certainly cease in sufficient time for these events to be judged by the Church. But after 20+ years now, it's all the more time it would take the Church to study and render a decision upon Medj..

To be honest, I was VERY excited about Medj at very first... and was rather disappointed after a short time.. The only other apparition that I believe is approved by the Church that is most known as a continuation of Fatima is Akita Japan..

Hope that helped

God Bless!
Mark

 

[krstlros]

The apparition in Akira was recently recognised by the Church. It is the first approval by the Church since Fatima.

"Medjugorje" continues because as Our Lady has constantly stated, we are in a period of "grace". The chastisement of the world is at hand. The only reason that God has not inflicted His chastisement is our conversion to prayer and our turning to God and His Son Jesus Christ.

If you recall, the times that Our Lady has appeared, it was at a time of great turmoil in the world. One of the messages received by Sr. Lucia was the start of World War II.

Human nature, and especially current human nature, attitude is "I want to know, and I want to know now." "Prove it to me NOW."

God's time is never our time. Our Lady doesn't determin the time or place for such things to happen. It is our Heavenly Father.

Pray, pray, pray, and more morayer that the world converts itself to the will of God. For peace among the world's people. Only then can evil be overcome.

 

[King of the Nations]

Hope that helped

It did, though...Hehe...I feel like Abraham, "Let not my Lord be angry with me if I persist just a little further..."

Your comments remain a little bit more general than I am comfortable with, but will make at least an attempt at replying anyway and we'll see what happens...

For beginners, simply comapre the nature of the language and the purposes of it to Lourdes and to Fatima, secondly, obviously our lady is appearing to those seers more frequently than all the greatest saints in Church history. Over 20 years now and visits everyday? thirdly, Mary is always "thanking" them for responding to her call? Even when Lucy of Fatima would prostrate herself on the ground in front of the Blessed Sacrament Our Lady's response was "at least you try to console Me". but never "Thank you".. for that should be the other way around. But as has been pointed out in here before this very well could be a translation mis-understanding..

Fatima had a very specific and important purpose which was confirmed by the miracle of the sun which was witnessed by 70,000 people including even atheists, etc.. God was getting the attention of the world in a very BIG way. And even for a message as important for the world as was Fatima, time and idle chat by Our Lady was almost non-existant. The message was given, the request was made and that was pretty much it..

And don't get me wrong it's great if he has a good family life and does much good, that is to be commendable indeed. But in that is also where an inconsitency lay, in almost all cases I am aware of, the seer/s would take every measure to shun themselves from the world. After experiencing such mystical understanding, experience and intuitions of the love of God nothing on earth appealed much to them anymore. Saint Bernadette had a suitor at the time as well but she rather entered the convent and prefered a life of penance, since ,uch of earthly love, of marriage simply did not appeal to her whatsoever after experiencing the wonders of divine love.

As far as I understand, and I could very well be wrong, but the apparations muct cease before the Church can judge them. And if Our Lady has some important message for the world, then they would most certainly cease in sufficient time for these events to be judged by the Church. But after 20+ years now, it's all the more time it would take the Church to study and render a decision upon Medj..

The more I think about this, the more I think I'll just go ahead and answer in one "fell swoop", rather than try and break anything down.

I understand your concerns, but, personally, feel that they are overly restrictive.

As far as language goes, yes, as you yourself noted, one should be very careful as there are any number of issues to bear in mind including literal translation from one langugae to another as well as cultural relveances and so forth.

As far as Medjugroje having a specific purpose, it certainly does. Has that purpose taken longer to unfold than all other known apparitions in history? Yes. The key is what Anne just alluded to - All the signs indicate that we are rapdily approaching the end of an age. Not the end of the world, but the end of this "age" of the earth's history.

I really, really have no desire to "freak anyone out", but the messages of Medjugorje are very, very serious and that's precisely why the secrets are not being shared with the general public. Our Lady knows better than that. All will know in time what information the secrets contain as they are about to unfold. In the meantime, she can either inform the whole world and freak people into a deer-in-headlights reaction, or she can simply come to the visonaries and say, "Please tell my children that the times in which they live are very, very serious. Tell them they must pray, fast, and reform their lives in anticipation of what's coming."

The good news is that what was coming has been able to be lessened a little. As far as I understand things, the "content" of two of one visionaries secrets has been eliminated altogether because enough people have responded to the messages since they began. The bad news is that that's only two secrets over 24 years....

Our Lady is preparing all those who will listen not only to prevent major disasters, but also to adapt to the massive transition in the way the world lives as it happens. As such, we should all be paying attention, especially since, as I've said, she isn't really saying anything new. It isn't like she's suggesting that we all go out and sit in the lotus position and hum in hopes that spaceships will come and enlighten us on some new stuff or whatever. It's all prayer, fasting, Eucharist, etc. It's because of the seriousness and imminent nature of the events in question, not to mention the fact that "this is it", the end of the line, as far apparitions go, if the apparitions themselves are to be believed, that she is being allowed to appear longer than ever before.

And as for signs...There have already been many, and there will continue to be more, and they will become more prominent. The problem is that, correlating with their increasing prominence will be a decreasing in the amount of time available to respond to them.

Lastly, as far as the visionaries wanting to live in seclusion... ...I would only direct your attention to St. Paul who had a very profund mystical experience himself (See the book of Acts) and then turned right aorund and wrote half the New Testament and preached to people like perhaps no one else in the history of the world.

Certainly, if the apparitions are authentic, then "notoriety" is something that they seers are going to want to avoid. But that is an interior matter, not an exterior one, as demonstrated with St. Paul. Each seer does as they feel led. Ivan and Vicka are very active in speaking with pilgrims and people throughout the world. Mirjana, on the other hand, all but hates to be in public at all. I'm not sure about the other three.

And even with Ivan and Vicka, there is no sense of pretension in either one of them from what I've seen so far. Vicka (pronounced "Veets-ka", by the way) is a naturally outgoing and friendly individual, but also calm and serene, not boisterous. Ivan is less outgoing, and, I would almost say, a quiet individual, but one who does not hide from his responsibilties to share the message.

Day after day after day after day, it's the same thing over and over and over again for these guys, which is another thing that speaks well of them, IMO. Their consistency and what might be described as the "mundanity" (is that a word???) of what they are having to say to people. Unlike in some alleged apparitions where there seems to be a new tid-bit of info during every alleged appearance, these guys keep having to repeat the same thing to peole over and over and over again. "Pray...fast...Eucharist...confession...Bible..." The questions they have to answer over and over and over and over again ad nauseum from curious souls ("What color is our Lady's gown when she appears?" "Is she wearing anything on her feet?" "Are there any angels with her?" What color are her eyes?" "What does she want from us now?) are enough to, as they say, make a grown man cry. (and drive him to drink and...what's the other expression...??)

The fact that at least Vicka and Ivan continue patiently saying the same thing over and over and over again would seem to this little soul to be a very positive sign.



Wow....

And for my next book....



Sorry for the verbal diarrhea..

Peace,

Greg

 

[D'Ann]

bump