Meaingless words in the Koran

Montalban · Dec 17, 2011

steve_bakr said:
You are now arguing about arguing. I have already asked you not to place your love of contention above your love for our Lord.

Actually you are the one who brought up that it's valid!

You're the one defending the introduction of tu quoque for distracting attention away from Islam!

Note the OP? I don't recall much of your posts responding to that.

Montalban · Dec 17, 2011

BUMP

Montalban said:
There is a contradiction in Islamic ideas regarding the Koran.

Moslems say that the Koran is 'clear' and can be understood BUT there are meaningless words in the Koran and that their god al-Lah has reserved the meaning of these words to himself.

How can it be both clear and unclear?

Fuzzy · Dec 17, 2011

peaceful soul said:
It was you who didn't understand what was being said. I simply corrected you;

Thank you.

peaceful soul said:
Since you mentioned: why should we have to talk about things that we have in common? Why can't we talk about things that separate us?

Talking about things we have in common could allow us to better understand and learn, like the stated purpose of this forum. Talking about things that separate us, for the sake of understanding, would also meet this purpose. There seems to be more of an emphasis on criticism or disproving the Other, from both sides of the Christian/Non-Christian line. Not necessarily in this thread, though, to be clear. With regards to the OT...perhaps clarity comes with being a Muslim, similar to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, or further experiences within the 'mystery religions' of the world. Perhaps it's all a big test by DEITY to test everyone.

Tariki · Dec 17, 2011

Montalban said:
There is a contradiction in Islamic ideas regarding the Koran.

Moslems say that the Koran is 'clear' and can be understood BUT there are meaningless words in the Koran and that their god al-Lah has reserved the meaning of these words to himself.

How can it be both clear and unclear?

Possibly the Qu'ran seeks to make it perfectly clear that there are certain things that need to remain unclear?

And maybe Christianity could learn from such, by the Bible making it perfectly clear that no judgement of any other human being is either permissible, nor in fact possible.

And other things, like insisting that we should first look at the log in our...................ooops! But it has, hasn't it?

peaceful soul · Dec 17, 2011

steve_bakr said:
It doesn't seem unfair to point out parallel issues in both religions--it's called Comparative Religion.

This is starting to become comical. The objective was not to do comparative religions. Even doing that will lead us to the differences. Anyone who is intellectually and rational minded will have to still face these differences if they want to be objective about what they read. Those differences just don't go away. People who try to ignore them are probably trying to create a superficial view to fit in with their own view. In life, we discern things by their differences. We tell right from wrong through differences. We make judgements by differences. Without differences, it is difficult, if not impossible, to be objective.

Let's put this to rest and realize that running interference isn't gong to solve the problem. All it will cause is frustration, anger, and other unnecessary results. Just learn to try to answer the questions put forth and let it be. Perhaps that is too simple for some.

Drunk On Love · Dec 17, 2011

I haven't seen anyone here make the claim that there aren't important areas of disagreement between Christians and Muslims.

Tariki · Dec 17, 2011

peaceful soul said:
This is starting to become comical. The objective was not to do comparative religions. Even doing that will lead us to the differences. Anyone who is intellectually and rational minded will have to still face these differences if they want to be objective about what they read. Those differences just don't go away. People who try to ignore them are probably trying to create a superficial view to fit in with their own view. In life, we discern things by their differences. We tell right from wrong through differences. We make judgements by differences. Without differences, it is difficult, if not impossible, to be objective.

Let's put this to rest and realize that running interference isn't gong to solve the problem. All it will cause is frustration, anger, and other unnecessary results. Just learn to try to answer the questions put forth and let it be. Perhaps that is too simple for some.

peaceful soul, my own experience - in various debates and on various forums - has been that many "differences" become less obstructive when the living experience of any Faith becomes dominant. Such is what motivated the Catholic monk Thomas Merton, who came to recognise - this by his own meditative experience - that doctrinal disagreements do not necessarily mean differences in religious experience. Merton recognised this especially in his own exploration of the Buddhist Faith, where he spoke of the Western tendency to focus not on the Buddhist experience, which is essential, but on the explanation, which is accidental and which indeed is often regarded as completely trivial and even misleading

Merton again.....

The more I am able to affirm others, to say 'yes' to them in myself, by discovering them in myself and myself in them, the more real I am. I am fully real if my own heart says yes to everyone.

I will be a better Catholic, not if I can refute every shade of Protestantism, but if I can affirm the truth in it and still go further.

So, too, with the Muslims, the Hindu's, the Buddhists, etc. This does not mean syncretism, indifferentism, the vapid and careless friendliness that accepts everything by thinking of nothing. There is much that one cannot 'affirm' and 'accept,' but first one must say 'yes' where one really can."

So the emphasis is on YES. And possibly if this is so, many differences that have caused so much misery throughout the desperately sad history of Religion will be seen to be of little account.

All this has nothing to do with creating "superficial views" to fit anything at all. There is absolutely nothing superficial in having the depth of faith to genuinely question, or to have the vulnerability that opening to the living faith of another demands of us.

Montalban · Dec 17, 2011

This is not about validating Islam apologists tu quoque

suhail · Dec 20, 2011

-
Montalban

Without reading all the posts, I am referring to your first title post:

There is a contradiction in Islamic ideas regarding the Koran.

Moslems say that the Koran is 'clear' and can be understood BUT there are meaningless words in the Koran and that their god al-Lah has reserved the meaning of these words to himself.

How can it be both clear and unclear?

- Please note,they are acronyms - not words.

- These acronyms must be meaningful. No details, however, have been given for those acronyms.

- Few acronyms in 6243 verses can not make Koran unclear.

- Allah is your God also. All Christians in Arabia and Far East call God as Allah.

-'God" is not a divine word as its roots are from Greek gods and goddesses.

- Allah, Elohim, Yahweh are the divine words used for our Creator
.
-------------------------------------------

Montalban · Dec 20, 2011

Tariki said:
Possibly the Qu'ran seeks to make it perfectly clear that there are certain things that need to remain unclear?

My understanding is that the Koran is seen as "al-Lah's clear message to his people"

Therefore to have something in it not clear is a contradiction

Tariki said:
And maybe Christianity could learn from such, by the Bible making it perfectly clear that no judgement of any other human being is either permissible, nor in fact possible.

Yes, a lot of people just have to have an off-topic dig at the Bible

Montalban · Dec 20, 2011

suhail said:
-
Montalban

Without reading all the posts, I am referring to your first title post:
- Please note,they are acronyms - not words.

An acronym is a word. It's a type of word.
Acronym
a word formed from the initial letters or groups of letters of words in a set phrase or series of words, as Wac from Women's Army Corps, OPEC from Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, or loran from long-range navigation
Acronym | Define Acronym at Dictionary.com

suhail said:
- These acronyms must be meaningful. No details, however, have been given for those acronyms.

They just must be?

suhail said:
- Few acronyms in 6243 verses can not make Koran unclear.

- Allah is your God also. All Christians in Arabia and Far East call God as Allah.

-'God" is not a divine word as its roots are from Greek gods and goddesses.

- Allah, Elohim, Yahweh are the divine words used for our Creator
.
-------------------------------------------

If you don't think it's unclear, then tell me what they mean

suhail · Dec 20, 2011

Montalban

If you ignore acronyms, would rest of the Koran be clear to you?

-

Montalban · Dec 20, 2011

suhail said:
Montalban

If you ignore acronyms, would rest of the Koran be clear to you?

-

That's beside the point. The claim made in Islam isn't "The Koran is 99% clear"

suhail · Dec 20, 2011

-Montalban

Islam may not be clear to illiterate Muslim or non Muslims.

The topic of acronym seems to be over discussed.

If you want to know the real and clear message of Islam, it is summarized as follows.

- There is no god but one God (and He does not beget, has no sons or daughters)

- Believe in all the messengers of God , from Adam to Abraham, Jesus to Mohammad (PBU them all)

- All humans are being tested for their deeds in this world. After Doomsday,their deeds (good or bad) will be judged on the day of Judgment.

Accordingly they shall be sent to heavens or lake of fire.

-

Montalban · Dec 20, 2011

suhail said:
-Montalban

Islam may not be clear to illiterate Muslim or non Muslims.

The topic of acronym seems to be over discussed.

If you want to know the real and clear message of Islam, it is summarized as follows.

- There is no god but one God (and He does not beget, has no sons or daughters)

- Believe in all the messengers of God , from Adam to Abraham, Jesus to Mohammad (PBU them all)

- All humans are being tested for their deeds in this world. After Doomsday,their deeds (good or bad) will be judged on the day of Judgment.

Accordingly they shall be sent to heavens or lake of fire.

-

Is the Koran clear, or not?

suhail · Dec 20, 2011

-
Montalban

Whether Koran is clear or not, please start a new thread on this topic.

-

Montalban · Dec 20, 2011

suhail said:
-
Montalban

Whether Koran is clear or not, please start a new thread on this topic.

-

That is the topic. I should know. I started the thread. I should know

The meaningless words in the Koran seem to be proof the Koran is not clear

Borromeo · Dec 21, 2011

suhail said:
-

- Allah is your God also. All Christians in Arabia and Far East call God as Allah.

Correction: All Christians in Arabia and Far East call God as "Allah Al Ab" (God the Father), specifically to avoid this intentional confusion.

-'God" is not a divine word as its roots are from Greek gods and goddesses.

"God" is a Native English word with nothing at all to do with Greek, the Greek word for "God" is "Theos."

Montalban · Dec 21, 2011

Borromeo said:
Correction: All Christians in Arabia and Far East call God as "Allah Al Ab" (God the Father), specifically to avoid this intentional confusion.

"God" is a Native English word with nothing at all to do with Greek, the Greek word for "God" is "Theos."

Apparently Arabic is divine, though

steve_bakr · Dec 21, 2011

Montalban said:
Apparently Arabic is divine, though

That is one theory; perhaps it is that the semitic languages are more closely linked to the earliest expressions for "God".

Meaingless words in the Koran

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