Meaingless words in the Koran

steve_bakr · Dec 16, 2011

Montalban said:
I noticed you didn't notice that Moslems use Moslem

Start a thread

The correct word from the Arabic would be "Muslim" because the "mu" prefix before the root "slm" produces the noun which means, "one who submits (to God)."

BTW, the use of the word "Koran" is an archaic transliteration, as it does not reflect the true pronunciation, which is closer to "Qur'an", although I admit to using "Quran" for convenience.

Drunk On Love · Dec 16, 2011

I believe that the central message of the Qur'an is as clear as day. Remember God. "Remember God" is to Islam a lot like "love God and your neighbor as yourself" is to Christianity. The concise summation of the whole deal. For this reason it is logical to call it a clear book even if , as it further elaborates, some the verses have "decisive meanings" and others are "susceptible of different meanings". If you read the Qur'an and get the message of remembering God and the major elaborations of doing good and avoiding evil, oneness of God, the coming of the last judgment etc... you have got the point of the book. The meaning of the mysterious letters at the start of some of the verses are not necessary knowledge for an appropriate understanding for the common Muslim.

steve_bakr · Dec 16, 2011

Drunk On Love said:
I believe that the central message of the Qur'an is as clear as day. Remember God. "Remember God" is to Islam a lot like "love God and your neighbor as yourself" is to Christianity. The concise summation of the whole deal. For this reason it is logical to call it a clear book even if , as it further elaborates, some the verses have "decisive meanings" and others are "susceptible of different meanings". If you read the Qur'an and get the message of remembering God and the major elaborations of doing good and avoiding evil, oneness of God, the coming of the last judgment etc... you have got the point of the book. The meaning of the mysterious letters at the start of some of the verses are not necessary knowledge for an appropriate understanding for the common Muslim.

Alhamduli'llah :thumbs up:

Whisper of Hope · Dec 16, 2011

Montalban said:
There's quite a number of atheists trying all manner of off-topic argument to help defend Islam through distraction.

They're probably not even aware of the forces compelling them to do so.

Avelina777 said:
Agreed!

I also agree! Ephesians 6:10-12, in particular, comes to mind, and the rest of the passage for that matter.

Montalban · Dec 16, 2011

steve_bakr said:
The correct word from the Arabic would be "Muslim" because the "mu" prefix before the root "slm" produces the noun which means, "one who submits (to God)."

Take it up with the Moslems using Moslem. I don't pretend to know better than they do.

Montalban · Dec 16, 2011

Drunk On Love said:
I believe that the central message of the Qur'an is as clear as day. Remember God. "Remember God" is to Islam a lot like "love God and your neighbor as yourself" is to Christianity. The concise summation of the whole deal. For this reason it is logical to call it a clear book even if , as it further elaborates, some the verses have "decisive meanings" and others are "susceptible of different meanings". If you read the Qur'an and get the message of remembering God and the major elaborations of doing good and avoiding evil, oneness of God, the coming of the last judgment etc... you have got the point of the book. The meaning of the mysterious letters at the start of some of the verses are not necessary knowledge for an appropriate understanding for the common Muslim.

I disagree. There is no "love thy neighbour" in the Koran.

Islam is about rights and obligations.

Jesus tells us to love those who mistreat us.

Islam tells us that you can go to war with them.

Drunk On Love · Dec 16, 2011

I disagree. There is no "love thy neighbour" in the Koran.

I disagree with your assessment of the place of love in the Quran but that wasn't really the point I was trying to make. I was pointing out that both phrases were summations of their respective religions.

Montalban · Dec 16, 2011

Drunk On Love said:
I disagree with your assessment of the place of love in the Quran but that wasn't really the point I was trying to make. I was pointing out that both phrases were summations of their respective religions.

Show me the 'love thy neighbour' message.

I haven't argued that there's no place for love: as far as I know, and I could be wrong, the only reference that's similar is a 'love thy brother' message - and this only relates to other Moslems. That is a kind of love, but it's far more restrictive than the Christian 'universal love'

Let's hear from some Moslem experts
"Question: Does not brotherhood extend to all of mankind because it is established that Aadam was the forefather of everyone?

Response: This is not so. There is no doubt that everyone is from the offspring of Aadam but we do not say, "This is my brother," when referring to a disbeliever meaning by that within the brotherhood of man. We can only refer to him as brother when there is a relationship by descent or lineage.
http://www.fatwa-online.com/fataawa/muslimminorities/0000920_5.htm

Montalban · Dec 16, 2011

It is not permissible for a Muslim man or woman to take a male or female friend who is not a Muslim, because Allaah has forbidden us to love the kuffaar or take them as close friends and companions
Islam Question and Answer - Should she end her relationship with some kaafir women or use the opportunity for daâwah?

Allaah has forbidden the believers to take the kaafireen (disbelievers) as friends, and He has issued a stern warning against doing that.
Islam Question and Answer - What is meant by taking the kuffaar as friends? Ruling on mixing with the kuffaar

"Clarification of the important rule: it is haraam to take kaafirs as close friends and protectors
Praise be to Allaah.
Yes, examples will certainly explain and clarify what is meant, so we will move straight on to quoting some of the most important points that the scholars and leaders of da’wah have said about different ways of showing friendship towards kaafirs."
Clarification of the important rule: it is haraam to take kaafirs as close friends and protectors

The basis for these interpretations is the Koran:
AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE, THE TABLE SPREAD)
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement

I accept that you, drunkonlove don't have the same message, and you may reject these 'experts' as being of a different Islamic tradition, but I cannot modify my view until I see evidence to the contrary

Drunk On Love · Dec 16, 2011

The Quran does tend to focus more on terms like compassion, charity, and mercy rather than love. I see them as all being closley related though. Generally they are expressions of love . I have on old Catholic translation of the Bible and it even translates the greek word for love as "charity".

"IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." 1 Cor 13

Doey Rheims is a very majestic translation. That and the KJV are my favorites.

Montalban · Dec 16, 2011

Drunk On Love said:
The Quran does tend to focus more on terms like compassion, charity, and mercy rather than love. I see them as all being closley related though. Generally they are expressions of love . I have on old Catholic translation of the Bible and it even translates the greek word for love as "charity".

"IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." 1 Cor 13

Doey Rheims is a very majestic translation. That and the KJV are my favorites.

However I noted that the 'love' in the Koran is restricted.

peaceful soul · Dec 16, 2011

Fuzzy said:
Because the later two Abrahamic faiths have to, by necessity, reference the earlier work(s).

There's no New Testament without an Old Testament. There's no Final Prophet without Previous Prophets.

It's the same general principle as a revised edition of a book can't exist without an original edition.

You are not understanding the problem here. We question something about Islam. Then we get others pointing out the same or similar issues with Christianity as if the topic is Christianity. I find it quite amusing that we can't discuss Islam without people running interference and hindering us from getting the question answered that we asked. Can Islam stand on its own merits? Or does it need to be defended by attacking Christianity or some other religion?

Drunk On Love · Dec 16, 2011

To me it makes sense to turn to sources an individual might find more authoratative like the Bible (if they are Christian) and say "look it says the same thing." Maybe they will come to a new understanding of the issue when they evaluate the claim and find the Quran and Bible teachings to be equivalent. It might show that we have more in common than was previously thought. The comparitve approach to religion can be very helpful in interfaith dialogue like that. It can cause people to find agreements they didn't recognize before.

Granted though that an attack on a religion as a response to an attack on a religion isn't exactly like that. It's best not attack at all but to simply discuss and compare. Not to respond with "you guys are evil too".

Montalban · Dec 16, 2011

Drunk On Love said:
To me it makes sense to turn to sources an individual might find more authoratative like the Bible (if they are Christian) and say "look it says the same thing." Maybe they will come to a new understanding of the issue when they evaluate the claim and find the Quran and Bible teachings to be equivalent. It might show that we have more in common than was previously thought. The comparitve approach to religion can be very helpful in interfaith dialogue like that. It can cause people to find agreements they didn't recognize before.

Granted though that an attack on a religion as a response to an attack on a religion isn't exactly like that. It's best not attack at all but to simply discuss and compare. Not to respond with "you guys are evil too".

If you have any evidence for your opinion on the message of Islam, that would be helpful

Montalban · Dec 16, 2011

peaceful soul said:
You are not understanding the problem here. We question something about Islam. Then we get others pointing out the same or similar issues with Christianity as if the topic is Christianity. I find it quite amusing that we can't discuss Islam without people running interference and hindering us from getting the question answered that we asked. Can Islam stand on its own merits? Or does it need to be defended by attacking Christianity or some other religion?

It's real evidence of the influence of the master of confusion protecting his ideology by weaving a screen to hide it from the light.

Whisper of Hope · Dec 16, 2011

Montalban said:
It's real evidence of the influence of the master of confusion protecting his ideology by weaving a screen to hide it from the light.

True.

Drunk On Love · Dec 16, 2011

If you have any evidence for your opinion on the message of Islam, that would be helpful

I'm not sure what issue you are asking for clarification on in that regard? At times I offer evidence but you view the quotes or examples I post in a different light. I have no way (or desire) to force you to accept my understanding so after a while I move on rather than continuing to beat a dead horse. This is especially the case if I think I've already made my case to the degree I'm aiming for. That you don't find it convincing is something I can live with.

Drunk On Love · Dec 16, 2011

I'm not seeing why pointing out similarities between the Bible and the Qur'an would serve the "master of confusion" in any way. It's a useful peace of information to be aware of. I would think hypocrisy and ignorance would be more to that masters liking.

Montalban · Dec 16, 2011

Drunk On Love said:
I'm not sure what issue you are asking for clarification on in that regard? At times I offer evidence but you view the quotes or examples I post in a different light. I have no way (or desire) to force you to accept my understanding so after a while I move on rather than continuing to beat a dead horse. This is especially the case if I think I've already made my case to the degree I'm aiming for. That you don't find it convincing is something I can live with.

If you could offer some commentary.

I've offered Islamic verse, and four or five experts commenting on this.

This is weighed up against you saying "no it's not".

I don't think that's the same.

As I noted I'm looking for evidence; you may have confused this with opinion.

Your best argument to date is that is in effect 'it's the vibe' of the whole thing.

Montalban · Dec 16, 2011

Drunk On Love said:
I'm not seeing why pointing out similarities between the Bible and the Qur'an would serve the "master of confusion" in any way. It's a useful peace of information to be aware of. I would think hypocrisy and ignorance would be more to that masters liking.

It wasn't regarding you specifically (at least as far as I'm concerned), but more of the number of people who try tu quoque defence of Islam EVERY TIME a Christian wants to discuss Islam

You are trying it in a 'positive' light - however - which is to say you see something good in the Bible and you think that there are parallels in the Koran. However apart from you saying that there is I only see your interpretation.

Meaingless words in the Koran

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