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I haven't been enlightened as to their hidden meanings. The Shi'ite Imams all were though. Those who do know generally do not share their understandings with the uninitiated however. Their meanings are not meant to be known by everyone. Just as the date and hour isn't supposed to be known in the Christian tradition. Unlike that the group to which it is known is a little larger though obviously.What do they mean to you?
I haven't been enlightened to their hidden meanings. The Shi'ite Imams all were though. Those who do know generally do not share their understanding with the uninitiated however. Their meanings are not meant to be known by everyone.
So you believe something you cannot understand?
Is God so small and finite that he can be fit perfectly into your understanding? If not does that mean you don't believe in Him?
As to the letters I do believe that they have meanings I just don't claim to know exactly what those meanings are. Even the people who did know were very reticent about bringing the subject up. I think there is some providential reason for keeping the meanings hidden from the masses. God reveals them to the few who need that information and can make the best use of it.
I haven't been enlightened as to their hidden meanings. The Shi'ite Imams all were though. Those who do know generally do not share their understandings with the uninitiated however. Their meanings are not meant to be known by everyone. Just as the date and hour isn't supposed to be known in the Christian tradition. Unlike that the group to which it is known is a little larger though obviously.
So you believe something you cannot understand?
Here I would agree with him because we can never fully understand God without being God. And Jesus says blessed are those that come to him like children.
However I noted above that I am not satisfied with the rest of the answer
I find it interesting. Is this view held also by Sunni Muslims?The letters are only understandable to those who are divinely guided in their reading of them.
But there are some words that are mistranslated, in the Bible.I find it interesting. Is this view held also by Sunni Muslims?
Are you saying some letters in the Quran are untranslatable? Which surahs are they in? Aren't they translated into English?
Who are the divinely guided? Did they share their knowledge with other Muslims?
The Bible does say only God knows when the end of the world will be, but that is written in the text, there aren't any letters or words that are untranslatable.
But there are some words that are mistranslated, in the Bible.
I think you can find differing views on the letters there. Some of the great Sunni Sufi saints claimed to have knowledge of their meaning but you will also find other people who deny that anyone other than God knows what they mean.I find it interesting. Is this view held also by Sunni Muslims?
The Twelve Imams would certainly be divinely guided. It was their job to show the inner or esoteric meaning of the Quranic revelation to those who were qualified and also to issue judgments regarding the proper practice and beliefs of Islam. They didn't share the meaning of the letters in question with everyone though. There may very well be a secret tradition passed down orally from them but I've certainly never been initiated into it if there is. There is also always the possibility of meeting the 12th Imam in the world of the soul and conversing with him directly in a mystical way too. In that way this teaching could be revived even if the historical chain was broken.Who are the divinely guided? Did they share their knowledge with other Muslims?
That's true.The Bible does say only God knows when the end of the world will be, but that is written in the text, there aren't any letters or words that are untranslatable.
Apparently Islam can't be examined without reference to Chrisitanity
This is true, why is this?
That's not true.Because the later two Abrahamic faiths have to, by necessity, reference the earlier work(s).
There's no New Testament without an Old Testament. There's no Final Prophet without Previous Prophets.
It's the same general principle as a revised edition of a book can't exist without an original edition.
Without the OT scriptures, there's no Covenant for Jesus to fulfill. Without the OT prophecies, there's no fulfillment of those prophecies in the NT. Without Abraham, there's no Isaac or Ishmael, or their descendants.That's not true.
I can read about the Christian understanding of the Trinity without reading the Jewish one.
But you can't revise the original work, or supplement the original work, without the original work.Actually people can read a revised edition without reading the original.
Because the history text is accepted as a source, since others have vetted the book well before you wrote those papers for your classes.Montalban said:When at school, and at uni, if I quoted a history text I didn't have to search for the reference of a point in previous editions.
Absolutely. I've never argued that there's no reference to the past. You argue that there always must be (that I can't examine Islam without reference to previous revelations) - that any look at one must involve a reference to the other so I ask you again for any Jewish understanding on the Trinity that I must be engaged in in order to examine the Christian understanding of the Trinity.Without the OT scriptures, there's no Covenant for Jesus to fulfill. Without the OT prophecies, there's no fulfillment of those prophecies in the NT. Without Abraham, there's no Isaac or Ishmael, or their descendants.
Show me the Trinitarian evidence, then.But you can't revise the original work, or supplement the original work, without the original work.
That's what 'revision' is. However you said that I must do this. So now you have exceptions wherein I can have a discussion using an historical source without referencing all previous editions... which is in fact my objection to the continual reliance on tu quoque in relation to Islam.Because the history text is accepted as a source, since others have vetted the book well before you wrote those papers for your classes.
I respectfully posit you're reading very deeply into what I wrote, and that I did not catch the nuance of your earlier comment of Islam referencing Christianity. You seem to be using "reference" in terms of proving validity, while I'm using "reference" as ideological antecedent.Absolutely. I've never argued that there's no reference to the past. You argue that there always must be (that I can't examine Islam without reference to previous revelations) - that any look at one must involve a reference to the other so I ask you again for any Jewish understanding on the Trinity that I must be engaged in in order to examine the Christian understanding of the Trinity.
There is a contradiction in Islamic ideas regarding the Koran.
Moslems say that the Koran is 'clear' and can be understood BUT there are meaningless words in the Koran and that their god al-Lah has reserved the meaning of these words to himself.
How can it be both clear and unclear?
Doesn't matter. One does not need to examine Christianity on an issue about Islam to see any 'ideological antecedent' either.I respectfully posit you're reading very deeply into what I wrote, and that I did not catch the nuance of your earlier comment of Islam referencing Christianity. You seem to be using "reference" in terms of proving validity, while I'm using "reference" as ideological antecedent.
No. We're going to be in agreement that there is SOMETIMES a reference to the past. I don't believe that there is always, hence I don't see why Islam always has to be examined alongside ChristianityWe're in agreement that there's going to be a reference to the past.
It's irrelevant.That's my point. Not the validity, or any logical fallacies that supporters may be engaged in.
That's a false analogy. Not everything in Islam has a basis in Christianity. And I don't even need to examine if it does.Let's try this using your word choices.
You can't "continue" an earlier work, without that earlier work existing as a starting point, because otherwise there would be nothing to continue from.
With regards to Hong Xiuquan, I was unaware of his spiritual side. Thank you.
In the same way that you might pray to God for someones well-being, yet God has an ultimate plan. Religion in general is chock full of logical contradictions.
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