Me and Jesus

[TruelightUK]

Most (evangelical) protestant churches make much of the need to 'accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour'. Which is good and right.

Yet is it the whole story?

Is it possible to be a Christian in isolation? In stressing individual accountability etc., are we in danger of neglecting the corporate dimension of the Faith - that we are born again into a family, as fellow-citizens with the saints, as living stones being built together into a dwelling place for the Spirit of God, and that it is when two or three gather in his Name that Christ is present. Often it is 'What God told me' that takes precedence over the revelation and discipline of the Church, my relationship with Him, and my prosperity (physical or spiritual) which take precedence over the overall well-being of His people (perhaps a reflection of our contemporary consumer society!) - yet didn't He call us to serve one another and sub-ordinate our needs to those of others?

Put it another way, is there salvation outside the Church?

Anthony

 

[darkwoof]

I would say "Yes". Personally, I'm a non-denominational Christian, serving no organisation or church. My understanding of the Church that Christ set up is one that comprises of all true believers -- a fact that only God can know for sure. That is, since as fallible human beings we are unable to judge, only God can tell if we are really true to Him.

This church isn't a public site of worship, nor a visible congregation, nor some organisation. Let us think about the early church, and let us think about the end times. Being together physically may no longer be possible in times of turmoil, yet the true believers will be united in heart and spirit with the Lord. That is the true church.

Being in a church (building) and being part of a congregation may have it's advantages. It helps to edify an individual, as well as the other present in the church (building). But it also breeds two types of syndrome which I consider bad: the lifting up of clergymen (preachers, ministers, pastors, etc.) above the congregation, as well as following in the view of the majority.

Lifting up of the clergy: Even when these servants of God tell the congregation that he is just one like the rest of the congregation, often times the congregation may believe that the clergyman would know more than him/her, and believe every thing he/she hears from the clergyman. Phrases I've often heard includes, "My pastor says so, thus it must be true" and "This church has a resident pastor, it must then be better than the other one". We must remember that our guide is the Holy Spirit, and if a clergyman is telling the truth, then the Holy Spirit is working through him, just like He can do to us directly. Moreover, lots of pastors and preachers nowadays are ordained by a school of theology, may be, but not necessarily chosen by God.

Following views of the majority: Why I'm a non-denominational Christian is because I refuse to follow doctrines that are not explicitly written unless I've gotten personal understanding from the Holy Spirit. Division/denominations occur nowadays because of two reasons: 1) people have different beliefs 2) they form groups to proclaim their beliefs as the true one. I find that when such groups appear, people tend to join them, and from there, take the said belief to be true, often simply because the others (the majority, compared to the individual) believe them -- sometimes without personal understanding from the Holy Spirit.

There are so many denominations, all proclaiming to be true. But who are we to judge? Trust in God, and God alone, for He alone is righteous.

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

Does the Bible say that there is salvation in the church?

A church is not a building; it's a body of believers. Is the church required for salvation? Do we save one another? Of course not.

Verily, verily, I say unto you; He who believes in Me has everlasting life.

We are not saved by baptism.
We are not saved by works.

We are not saved by faith.

We are saved by GRACE. And this forgiveness is counted as justification by faith in Him. Only by grace, through faith, can we have forgiveness. This forgiveness is salvation. Not being seperated from God because our souls are not to suffer wrath.  We are "clothed in Christ".  We accept by faith what we cannot earn.  TTYL Jesus l

 

[Martin]

It's quite true that you can be a Christian in isolation, there is no dependence on others for your salvation, but my experience is that I find it easier to praise, easier to pray when in the company of other Christians and I know that the presence of other Christians can lift our faith. The purpose of meeting together is to spur one another on in the faith, and I think that because of our human nature, we are all in need of others spurring us on

 

[TruelightUK]

I'd just suggest that those who champion the individualistic approach to the Christian life carefully examine the New Testament writings and see what emphasis is placed upon the fellowship of believers - how often the plural form of 'you' occurs, and what priority was given to assembling together for worship, mutual edification and ministry. A great deal of the work of the Holy Spirit (it seems to me) consists of bringing down barriers, and creating openness and unity between folk so that together we may experience and demonstrate the presence of God.

How did He purpose to demonstrate His plan of salvation to the world? - through the Church! Where does He set gifts and ministries? - in the Church!

We are a covenant people, the household of God (regardless of denominational loyalties) and are not truly entering into the fulness of His grace if we isolate ourselves from the rest of those who are being saved, whom He has given to us for our blessing and strengthening. How can the foot say to the hand 'I have no need of you!'? Cut off from the flow of blood around the body, the severed limb will perish!

Anthony

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

Whoever said that church is malevolent?

Do you know how many times the words "one another" appear in Paul's writings?

Your original question was asking if church was necessary for salvation. Will God send you to hell and disqualify your predestined adoption if you miss a Sunday? Hmm...

No.

 

[eldermike]

I am not sure there is a connection between your final question and some very good points made in the body of your post. But since you used the "salvation" word in a context of works, I respond.

Can one be saved alone on a deserted island. Yep. As long as they believe Jesus died for their sins; washed them clean. Can a person in a lifelong comma remain saved? yes. Can we be assured of salvation, is the promise true? (John 3:16) yes it's assured.

Fellowship:
"Let us not forsake gathering together" why? "to spur one another on to good works". Who does good works? the saved. Are we unsaved when we are alone? No.

Salvation is a free gift, given once. You can't rub it off, give it back or throw it away. The grace of God that saves us, it's our faith that sustains us through trials, maintains our relationship (not kinship) with God..
Fellowship is God's plan for His body, but it's not salvation.

I am always amazed at how complicated we can be over such simple stuff.

Salvation = freedom from sin. Sin was the problem, the problem is solved.

Is there another way to salvation other than accepting Jesus as savior? No. Jesus said: "No man comes to the Father except through me"

The book of life is written in permanent ink.

Is there another way to say this?

Let's review:
Salvation - can't be earned, it's a gift.
Faith - given by grace so we can know (not something we muster up)
Fellowship - God's method of building each other up, using gifts effectively and keeping each other accountable. Can fellowship save you. No
Kinship - Something we can't break, son/daughter of God. If I am taken into the kingdom of God, made a son of God it's a one way trip.
Book of life - listing of all my brothers and sisters.

Blessings

 

[TruelightUK]

People seem to be reading more into my final remark (I admit it, it was, in part, a tongue-in-cheek wind-up for the anti-Augustinians among us! ) than was intended. :lol

I'm not refering to 'Church' in a 'religious', institutional kind of a way, and not at all implying that salvation is dependant upon fulfilling certain rituals etc. (tho' that might make an interesting line of debate elsewhere!), simply trying to convey that, like it or not, we are 'born again' into a spiritual family, called 'the Church'; if we are 'saved' we are members of the community of the redeemed - Christ's body - and cannot choose to have the personal benefits without the mutual ties!

Anthony

 

[eldermike]

Glad you cleared that up. I agree, as part of a family we are forever linked together. And i thought your points were good ones, the conclusion just didn't fit them. Ever heard the silent sermon?

Where the pastor comes to visit a member that had been away from church for several weeks. The man let's the pastor in, walks silently back to his chair in front of the fireplace. The pastor comes in and sits watching the fire. The pastor takes the fire tongs and removes a piece of wood from the fire, placing it on the harth. It begins to smolder and smoke but the fire is going away. After the fire is gone the pastor puts it back on top and it bursts into flames again. The pastor gets up walks to the door and the man speaks for the first time: "See you Sunday".

Blessings

 

[ZiSunka]

There are many many thousands of Christians who have no choice but to live out their faith in isolation. There are many in persecuting countries who cannot safely reveal their faith or don't know anyone of the same faith. Now that Christian radio is reaching unreached places, they may even have gotten saved in isolation, with no Christians around them to fellowship or worship with.

And many thousands of Chrsitians in Western countries have been so alienated by organized churches that they have no home church or fellowship with other Christians. Churches can be cruel places for new Christians or those of unusual appearance or manner.

So, even though ideally, every Christian would be part of some church body, there are many who are not, yet are faithful to God nonetheless.

 

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by TruelightUK

How did He purpose to demonstrate His plan of salvation to the world? - through the Church! Where does He set gifts and ministries? - in the Church!
Anthony

I know dozens of people who have personal parachurch ministries! Ministries are not for church organizations alone!

A friend is a licensed counsellor, that is his ministry.
A neighbor runs a soup kitchen for the homeless. She organizes the volunteers, seeks donations, cooks the food, delivers it, cleans up, all without the input of her church.

I have a ministry to people who seek help at food pantries. I started it before I had a home church, and operate outside the church, and so far, all depending on God's daily provision, and He has always provided!

Ministries are not just a "church thing" anymore.

 

[TruelightUK]

Originally posted by lambslove
There are many many thousands of Christians who have no choice but to live out their faith in isolation.

But I'm not really talking about those who are prevented by external forces from doing what their heart desires! (And, from what I gather, many facing persecution are the more zealous to ensure they do meet regularly for fellowship and mutual encouragement.!) I'm talking about those growing numbers - particualry in'charismatic' circles who deliberately, and often quite arbitrarily, 'opt out' of church involvement, because it doesn't suit their temperament, or someone said something to offend them, or they don't feel valued, or because their personal revelation has not been accepted by the leadership. There are those, it seems, who will only tolerate a church 'created in their own image'! That, it seems to me, is wilful self-indulgence, in defiance of biblical principles.

Churches can be cruel places for new Christians or those of unusual appearance or manner.

Indeed they can (which is a rebuke to those of us who make up the Church)- tho' they can (if truly seeking to follow Christ) also be peaceful havens of acceptance and support for those shunned by the world! (For some reason, in my observation, this is less likely to be a problem in more 'traditional' / 'catholic' (in the broadest sense) churches than in more ardently evangelical 'non-conformist' circles - tho' there are exceptions in both camps - where, ironically, 'conformity' to certain standards and norms can be more of an issue).

But the imperfections of individual assemblies does not take away the fact that 'one-anotherness' is central to the Gospel - it is when 2 or 3 are gathered that Christ is manifestly present; even if, perhaps, that may be, for a time at least, outside of 'formal' ecclesiastical structures. (Tho' quite how far one can reject other parts of the Body without also rejecting the Head is the subject of another topic!).

Anthony

 

[TruelightUK]

Originally posted by lambslove
I know dozens of people who have personal parachurch ministries! Ministries are not for church organizations alone!

Let me remind you that, by my definition, 'the Church' is far broader than narrowly drawn eccleisaistical structures. Ministries of this sort, if carried out by groups of committed Christians who are part of the worshipping community of Christ's family, are part of 'the Church' even if they are not directly organised or sponsored by a particular denomination or assembly.

I myself work for a Christian organisation providing care for folk with autism, and am also a trusteee of a charity helping homeless children in the former Soviet Union. Neither of these are directly 'controlled' by any specific local church or denomination - but they are backed by the prayers of various assemblies (something I have been at pains to ensure for 'my' organisation), and constitute part of 'the Church's' ministry to the world - as my current local church assembly is quick to recognise.

However, I was thinking more specifically about the various gifts and manifestations of the Spirit listed in Paul's epistles - for example apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers and evangelists are placed 'within the Church', as a gift to 'the Body', to build 'us' up in the faith. Quite how narrowly you wish to identify this with 'church organisations' is open to some debate - but, it seems to me, that if an individual neglects to assemble together with other believers in some regular, organised fashion, then s/he is cutting him/herself off from this God-given source of blessing and nourishment (which can ultimately only be detrimental to his/her spiritual health). Prophetic gifts etc. exercised outside of some form of organised Church setting cannot be effectively 'weighed' and 'tested' by those with the maturity and authority to do so. And the whole issue of 'church discipline' is a topic in itself!

But, hopefully, you see what I am getting at; as members together of Christ's Body we all need one another - and all have a part to play for the mutual benefit of the others. Christ didn't just save a lot of individuals so they could go to heaven and be blessed in isolation, but established His Church - the ekklesia or 'called out ones' - so that together they could grow up in Him and impact the world around them as the community of the redeemed, demonstrating a new way of mutual servanthood empowered by the Spirit who binds them in unity.


Anthony

 

[debs]

So then that it is possible for a Christian to be physically seperated from the/or a community of believers for a period of time due to circumstances ....but it doesnt change the fact that they are still by Gods placement IN the Body of Christ spiritually speaking.

Their physical absence from the Body can however make the Body less than it could be ("eek!..my foots gone: ...thats gonna slow me down!"
or how about "Wheres my left ear gone this time? I left it here somewhere..it cant be far away..Id go look for it but I dont move as well as I used to when I had two feet!)

Gods a gatherer, not a divider. and He sets the lonely in families...

 

[TruelightUK]

Nicely put, Debs!

Anthony

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Satan watches for those vessels that sail without convoy.

-- George Swinnock

 

Like a sheep that has wandered away from the sheepfold, it's easy prey.

It's no less a sheep, but it's about to become a dead sheep.