Maybe I still just don't "get" salvation

[packermann]

SOMETHING has been standing in the way of my salvation, or at least my assurance of salvation, for ten years of seeking. Recently, I have been doing lots of pondering about aiki's post. Maybe there is something I just don't "get" about salvation.

The problem is your Reformed/evangelical viewpoint.

Bob, I am trying to work more with where a person is at than I did before. But your Reformed/evangelical viewpoint is ruining your spiritual life. That is why I am encouraging you to look into the Catholic faith. Your Reformed/evangelical viewpoint is hurting you in three ways.

1. Sola Scriptura - the Reformed/evangelical viewpoint that all that we believe must be in the Bible. Bob, I know from our previous conversations that your problem is rooted in OCD. I myself understand that. But there is nothing in the Bible that says anything about OCD! Where is there a passage in the Bible that says that you can accept Christ into your heart multiple times if you have OCD? There is none! So if sola scriptura is true then it matters not that you have OCD - your can only accept Christ once. No exceptions are allowed since the Bible offers no exceptions.

But the Catholic Church realizes that there are extenuating circumstances not mentioned in the Bible. God never intended the Bible to contain EVERYTHING we need to know for our salvation. If it did, it would have said something about OCD.

2. Not only that, but the Reformed/evangelical viewpoint on how to be a Christian is very subjective. You have to accept as Savior and Lord. But how does one know that he really turned everything over to the Lord? You yourself are agonizing over this. But becoming a Christian according to the Catholic viewpoint is very objective - you get baptized! You get baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And then you are saved! This is so objective that most Catholics are baptized as infants. I never met a Catholic who was plagued on whether he was really baptized. But the trick is continuing in the faith (Colossians 1:22-23). I know that it bothers you that you can lose your salvation. Actually, you do not lose it. You would freely and deliberately turn away from God into grave sin. But this is far better than introspecting on whether God ever loved you at all.

3. Salvation by faith alone. This has placed you under tremendous bondage. The faith-alone view puts all your eggs in one basket, faith. It changes faith into a feeling - a feeling of absolute confidence in your salvation. No doubts are accepted. But a Catholic can accept feelings of doubt because salvation is through faith and works. If you are plagued with faith then that is OK. Just live for God! But you cannot do that. You are stuck on the faith part and you cannot go to living for God until you feel absolutely confident that you are saved. So your salvation by faith alone has turned into salvation by feelings alone. It is the worst kind of legalism.

But we Catholics have what is called the Dark Night of the Soul. It is feeling that one was abandoned by God. Many of our greatest saints have felt this. Mother of Theresa of Calcutta felt this way for 40 years! But she just continued to serve the Lord. And on her deathbed, she was filled with peace and joy. It was a time of testing for her. The greatest trial we would ever have to endure is feeling God had abandoned us. That is what Christ felt this on the Cross. He cried out "My God, my God! Why have You abandoned Me?" He felt that the Father had abandoned Him. The truth is that the Father had never abandoned Him. But this is how our Lord felt. Christ called us to follow Him to the Cross. We should not be surprised when we feel that God has abandoned us. But it pleases God to see us continue to serve him inspite of our doubts.

 

[Bob8102]

I thank you all for your posts. A number of things written in the posts above have given me pause. I have been doing a lot of that, lately: pausing. Pausing to wonder if I am born again. Pausing to try to obey Jesus' command: "Repent and believe in the gospel." During parts of yesterday's church service - as well as before and after - I was trying to look up at Jesus (literally looking up at the ceiling) and saying something like, "Jesus, help me to repent and believe the gospel."

Another thing I sometimes do is pray something like, "Jesus, if I don't know You, help me to come to know You."

I wonder, if I am not a Christian and become one, if God will have me do drastically different things than I am doing now, and doing things in a drastically different way than I do things now. For instance, as I sometimes do, I started off this morning with the concept that I am saved. When I think I am saved, I have an agenda, a schedule of things to do. This starts off with morning Bible reading and prayer for others. As I set about to do that this morning, however, I began to wonder about what I just wrote: God having me do drastically different from what I have been doing. That got to bothering me so much that I stopped the reading and prayer and logged on to post this.

I wonder, when I pray "help me to repent and believe the gospel," etc., am I just saying words and not really repenting and believing? Is there some level of IMAGINING that I am repenting and believing that is different from a level of ACTUALLY repenting and believing? Are there layers of imagination and fantasy in my psyche that I have not peeled through yet to get to really converting and being born again?

They say, "God has a wonderful plan for your life." The problem is *I* have a wonderful plan for my life. I have it all laid out what my agenda would be if I were saved. When I try to get saved, and sometimes think I am, I then realize that whatever my plans for me are, they might be different than God's plans for me. I realize I need to be open to a change in plans, as God wills. Now, bring this down to moment by moment doing of things throughout the day. If I am saved, will I be, should I be, doing what my schedule calls for? Or would God somehow direct me to, again, do a drastically different set of things, moment by moment, throughout the day? If I belonged to Jesus, would He be directing me, moment by moment, like the director of a movie?

Then there's MOTIVES: Oh, boy! I am used to doing things for my own selfish motives. Even Christians have careers. But the "normal" purpose for having a career is for one's own glory and wealth. I realize that is not the right set of motives for a Christian having a career. Now, carry this down to moment by moment motives for doing things. To me, there is quite a struggle between being motivated by my self and being motivated to "do things for God." A lot of times, it's easier just to forget about motives and just do what's next on the schedule.

So, I have a real problem concerning my will vs. God's will.

 

[Bob8102]

The problem is your Reformed/evangelical viewpoint.

Bob, I am trying to work more with where a person is at than I did before. But your Reformed/evangelical viewpoint is ruining your spiritual life. That is why I am encouraging you to look into the Catholic faith. Your Reformed/evangelical viewpoint is hurting you in three ways.

1. Sola Scriptura - the Reformed/evangelical viewpoint that all that we believe must be in the Bible. Bob, I know from our previous conversations that your problem is rooted in OCD. I myself understand that. But there is nothing in the Bible that says anything about OCD! Where is there a passage in the Bible that says that you can accept Christ into your heart multiple times if you have OCD? There is none! So if sola scriptura is true then it matters not that you have OCD - your can only accept Christ once. No exceptions are allowed since the Bible offers no exceptions.

But the Catholic Church realizes that there are extenuating circumstances not mentioned in the Bible. God never intended the Bible to contain EVERYTHING we need to know for our salvation. If it did, it would have said something about OCD.

2. Not only that, but the Reformed/evangelical viewpoint on how to be a Christian is very subjective. You have to accept as Savior and Lord. But how does one know that he really turned everything over to the Lord? You yourself are agonizing over this. But becoming a Christian according to the Catholic viewpoint is very objective - you get baptized! You get baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And then you are saved! This is so objective that most Catholics are baptized as infants. I never met a Catholic who was plagued on whether he was really baptized. But the trick is continuing in the faith (Colossians 1:22-23). I know that it bothers you that you can lose your salvation. Actually, you do not lose it. You would freely and deliberately turn away from God into grave sin. But this is far better than introspecting on whether God ever loved you at all.

3. Salvation by faith alone. This has placed you under tremendous bondage. The faith-alone view puts all your eggs in one basket, faith. It changes faith into a feeling - a feeling of absolute confidence in your salvation. No doubts are accepted. But a Catholic can accept feelings of doubt because salvation is through faith and works. If you are plagued with faith then that is OK. Just live for God! But you cannot do that. You are stuck on the faith part and you cannot go to living for God until you feel absolutely confident that you are saved. So your salvation by faith alone has turned into salvation by feelings alone. It is the worst kind of legalism.

But we Catholics have what is called the Dark Night of the Soul. It is feeling that one was abandoned by God. Many of our greatest saints have felt this. Mother of Theresa of Calcutta felt this way for 40 years! But she just continued to serve the Lord. And on her deathbed, she was filled with peace and joy. It was a time of testing for her. The greatest trial we would ever have to endure is feeling God had abandoned us. That is what Christ felt this on the Cross. He cried out "My God, my God! Why have You abandoned Me?" He felt that the Father had abandoned Him. The truth is that the Father had never abandoned Him. But this is how our Lord felt. Christ called us to follow Him to the Cross. We should not be surprised when we feel that God has abandoned us. But it pleases God to see us continue to serve him inspite of our doubts.

We clearly have opposing paradigms. But we don't disagree on everything. You say you can only accept Christ once. Protestants agree with that - you are saved only once. But if you have repetitive doubts like me, then you try to be saved over and over again. It is not that one is actually saved over and over. If one gets saved, it happens only once. After, that, that person is a child of God forever and nothing can change that. But if one is not SURE one is saved, one will try to have, over and over, that ONE moment of salvation.

You wrote:

"But becoming a Christian according to the Catholic viewpoint is very objective - you get baptized!"

This is where there is a fundamental difference between Protestant and Catholic. Protestants say that you cannot be saved by a ritual. It has to be a supernatural rebirth.

You mention feelings. Protestants also say to not depend on your feelings. Feelings are fickle. Protestants say to depend on facts. They say there is a train, Facts, then Faith, then Feelings. But I, personally, have trouble going by this: my feelings tend to dominate me....against the Protestant advice.

 

[packermann]

We clearly have opposing paradigms. But we don't disagree on everything. You say you can only accept Christ once. Protestants agree with that - you are saved only once.

Whoa! I think that there is a miscommunication here. As a Catholic, I believe that I can receive Christ multiple times. I can receive Him through the Eucharist and I can receive him several times through prayer. Christ died once. Baptism is once. But we can receive Him many times.

But if you have repetitive doubts like me, then you try to be saved over and over again. It is not that one is actually saved over and over. If one gets saved, it happens only once. After, that, that person is a child of God forever and nothing can change that. But if one is not SURE one is saved, one will try to have, over and over, that ONE moment of salvation.

I receive Christ multiple times. It does not mean that the the previous times I received Christ had been invalid. I am trying to point out that you receiving Christ multiple times is a violation of the Reformed/evangelical gospel, not the Catholic gospel.

You wrote:

"But becoming a Christian according to the Catholic viewpoint is very objective - you get baptized!"

This is where there is a fundamental difference between Protestant and Catholic. Protestants say that you cannot be saved by a ritual. It has to be a supernatural rebirth.

It is not an either/or. It is a both/and. Jesus said in John 3:5 that one is born in water and Spirit - outward sign of water and the inner Holy Spirit.

Peter said in the first sermon:
"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)

Here is the order of salvation - Repent and be baptized -> for the forgiveness of sins -> and you will receive the Holy Spirit. Repentance AND the outward sign of water leads to forgiveness and the Holy Spirit.

You mention feelings. Protestants also say to not depend on your feelings. Feelings are fickle. Protestants say to depend on facts. They say there is a train, Facts, then Faith, then Feelings. But I, personally, have trouble going by this: my feelings tend to dominate me....against the Protestant advice.

Protestant evangelicalism gives mixed messages on feelings. It says that a true Christian has absolute certainty of his salvation. How is that not a feeling? Your Protestant friends says that you must have absolute certainty of else you are not saved. You agree with them. So in one sense you are following their advice and in another sense you are going against their advise. They have conflicting advises to you.

I am not speaking from the top of my head on this. I had been a Protestant for 15 years, I graduated from a well-known Protestant seminary (Trinity Evangelical Divinity School), and I was a Baptist minister for 3 years. I have heard this preached over and over again. And I never felt preaching it because it always seemed self-contradictory. Giving yourself totally to God does not happen overnight. It is a process - called sanctification. If you were able to give yourself totally to God then you would be perfect - you would be without sin. And if you were absolutely confident in your salvation then you have perfect faith. And sin affects every part of lives, even our faith. It is impossible to have perfect faith.

 

[Bob8102]

Whoa! I think that there is a miscommunication here. As a Catholic, I believe that I can receive Christ multiple times. I can receive Him through the Eucharist and I can receive him several times through prayer. Christ died once. Baptism is once. But we can receive Him many times.



I receive Christ multiple times. It does not mean that the the previous times I received Christ had been invalid. I am trying to point out that you receiving Christ multiple times is a violation of the Reformed/evangelical gospel, not the Catholic gospel.



It is not an either/or. It is a both/and. Jesus said in John 3:5 that one is born in water and Spirit - outward sign of water and the inner Holy Spirit.

Peter said in the first sermon:
"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)

Here is the order of salvation - Repent and be baptized -> for the forgiveness of sins -> and you will receive the Holy Spirit. Repentance AND the outward sign of water leads to forgiveness and the Holy Spirit.



Protestant evangelicalism gives mixed messages on feelings. It says that a true Christian has absolute certainty of his salvation. How is that not a feeling? Your Protestant friends says that you must have absolute certainty of else you are not saved. You agree with them. So in one sense you are following their advice and in another sense you are going against their advise. They have conflicting advises to you.

I am not speaking from the top of my head on this. I had been a Protestant for 15 years, I graduated from a well-known Protestant seminary (Trinity Evangelical Divinity School), and I was a Baptist minister for 3 years. I have heard this preached over and over again. And I never felt preaching it because it always seemed self-contradictory. Giving yourself totally to God does not happen overnight. It is a process - called sanctification. If you were able to give yourself totally to God then you would be perfect - you would be without sin. And if you were absolutely confident in your salvation then you have perfect faith. And sin affects every part of lives, even our faith. It is impossible to have perfect faith.

You wrote:

"Whoa! I think that there is a miscommunication here. As a Catholic, I believe that I can receive Christ multiple times. I can receive Him through the Eucharist and I can receive him several times through prayer. Christ died once. Baptism is once. But we can receive Him many times.

"I receive Christ multiple times. It does not mean that the the previous times I received Christ had been invalid. I am trying to point out that you receiving Christ multiple times is a violation of the Reformed/evangelical gospel, not the Catholic gospel."

I think we may have more of a semantical difference here than a fundamental one. You say you can receive Christ multiple times, Protestants say you can be (re)filled with the Holy Spirit many times. These might essentially be the same thing. One is saved once, at which point he or she receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit, according to some Protestants. But over time and sin, the believer may fall outside of the Holy Spirit's leading. (They do not lose their salvation, though). But, when they pray and repent, they get filled with the Holy Spirit again, and are guided and empowered by the Holy Spirit again.

My receiving Christ multiple times I do not see as a violation of anything, but an expression of my doubt, which is especially caused by my OCD. Today is the last day at 40mg of Fluoxetine; tomorrow I start on the 60mg pills. This change in my medication I view as an experiment; maybe it won't work. But I am confident that I received Christ yesterday morning, and need to go by the understanding that He holds onto us, whether or not we do a good job of holding onto Him.

You wrote, as to rebirth and baptism:

"It is not an either/or. It is a both/and. Jesus said in John 3:5 that one is born in water and Spirit - outward sign of water and the inner Holy Spirit."

Your favorite book, the David Jeremiah Study Bible [], says that "water" in this instance refers to the Word of God. One does not have to be physically/symbolically baptized to be saved, according to many Protestants. The repentant thief on the cross was never baptized, nor did he take communion. (Remember that Jesus said, unless you eat My flesh and drink My blood, you have no life in you.) But Jesus told him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in paradise." The thief was not baptized, but he was born again.

You wrote:

"Your Protestant friends says that you must have absolute certainty of else you are not saved. You agree with them."

Many Protestants recognize that one can be saved and yet still have doubts about their salvation. Especially one with anxiety disorders.

You wrote:

"Giving yourself totally to God does not happen overnight. It is a process - called sanctification. If you were able to give yourself totally to God then you would be perfect - you would be without sin. And if you were absolutely confident in your salvation then you have perfect faith. And sin affects every part of lives, even our faith. It is impossible to have perfect faith."

Giving yourself totally to God not only happens overnight, it happens in a single moment. Someone has said, "Give all you know of yourself to all you know of Christ." Now, I've had problems with that statement, because, how can one know even their own selves totally? But the idea is that one completely surrenders to Christ at the moment of salvation, not holding back anything they know of at that moment. Of course, they do not lose all of their tendency to sin at that moment. Sanctification goes on for a lifetime. But they are declared perfect and forgiven in God's sight at that moment. There is a verse: "He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified." "Perfected" is in the past tense; it is complete and settled. "Being sanctified" is in the present tense: an ongoing, lifetime process.

 

[packermann]

I think we may have more of a semantical difference here than a fundamental one. You say you can receive Christ multiple times, Protestants say you can be (re)filled with the Holy Spirit many times. These might essentially be the same thing. One is saved once, at which point he or she receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit, according to some Protestants. But over time and sin, the believer may fall outside of the Holy Spirit's leading. (They do not lose their salvation, though). But, when they pray and repent, they get filled with the Holy Spirit again, and are guided and empowered by the Holy Spirit again.

I totally disagree. It is a fundamental difference. It is not being fill with the Holy Spirit for the Catholic. We believe that the Holy Eucharist is the actual Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ. But sometimes a Catholic cannot receive the Eucharist. In that case the Catholic can receive Christ spiritual into his heart. So receiving Christ spiritually is almost like receiving Him sacramentally. But it has nothing to do with being filled with Holy Spirit.

My receiving Christ multiple times I do not see as a violation of anything, but an expression of my doubt, which is especially caused by my OCD. Today is the last day at 40mg of Fluoxetine; tomorrow I start on the 60mg pills. This change in my medication I view as an experiment; maybe it won't work. But I am confident that I received Christ yesterday morning, and need to go by the understanding that He holds onto us, whether or not we do a good job of holding onto Him.

Bob, you have been doing this for 40 years. I doubt that this time will be different than the others.

I realize that you will probably not ever become Catholic, so I will try to counsel you from a Reform/evangelical viewpoint. If I had remain an evangelical pastor, this is what I would advise you to do:

The next time you start to doubt your salvation, do not accept Christ in your heart again. Instead, thank Christ for entering your heart the last time and granting you salvation. Whenever you start to doubt your salvation, just thank Him for saving you. And then asking the Holy Spirit to fill you with His love and live in His love.

Your favorite book, the David Jeremiah Study Bible [], says that "water" in this instance refers to the Word of God.

There is nothing in the context of John 3 that indicates that the water is the Word of God.

One does not have to be physically/symbolically baptized to be saved, according to many Protestants. The repentant thief on the cross was never baptized, nor did he take communion. (Remember that Jesus said, unless you eat My flesh and drink My blood, you have no life in you.) But Jesus told him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in paradise." The thief was not baptized, but he was born again.

The Catholic Church teaches that God mercy is greater than sacraments. God is not a legalist. Of course, if a person is about to die and He turns to Christ for mercy, Christ will not cast him out just because he was not baptized. We Catholics call this the Baptism of Desire. If a person desires salvation on his deathbed but he cannot be baptized then, he will still be saved.

But this is more of a problem for you. Notice that he did not accept Christ into his heart. He did not receive Him as his Savior and Lord. All he said was "Lord, remember me when You into Your kingdom". That is it. And yet He was saved.

Many Protestants recognize that one can be saved and yet still have doubts about their salvation. Especially one with anxiety disorders.

Where does it say that it the Bible? Protestants say that everything we believe must be in the Bible. So where does it say that about anxiety disorders?

Bob, if Protestantism says that a person can be saved and still have doubts then why have you have been believing that you are not saved because of your doubts?

 

[Bob8102]

I totally disagree. It is a fundamental difference. It is not being fill with the Holy Spirit for the Catholic. We believe that the Holy Eucharist is the actual Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ. But sometimes a Catholic cannot receive the Eucharist. In that case the Catholic can receive Christ spiritual into his heart. So receiving Christ spiritually is almost like receiving Him sacramentally. But it has nothing to do with being filled with Holy Spirit.



Bob, you have been doing this for 40 years. I doubt that this time will be different than the others.

I realize that you will probably not ever become Catholic, so I will try to counsel you from a Reform/evangelical viewpoint. If I had remain an evangelical pastor, this is what I would advise you to do:

The next time you start to doubt your salvation, do not accept Christ in your heart again. Instead, thank Christ for entering your heart the last time and granting you salvation. Whenever you start to doubt your salvation, just thank Him for saving you. And then asking the Holy Spirit to fill you with His love and live in His love.


There is nothing in the context of John 3 that indicates that the water is the Word of God.



The Catholic Church teaches that God mercy is greater than sacraments. God is not a legalist. Of course, if a person is about to die and He turns to Christ for mercy, Christ will not cast him out just because he was not baptized. We Catholics call this the Baptism of Desire. If a person desires salvation on his deathbed but he cannot be baptized then, he will still be saved.

But this is more of a problem for you. Notice that he did not accept Christ into his heart. He did not receive Him as his Savior and Lord. All he said was "Lord, remember me when You into Your kingdom". That is it. And yet He was saved.



Where does it say that it the Bible? Protestants say that everything we believe must be in the Bible. So where does it say that about anxiety disorders?

Bob, if Protestantism says that a person can be saved and still have doubts then why have you have been believing that you are not saved because of your doubts?

You wrote:

"Where does it say that it the Bible? Protestants say that everything we believe must be in the Bible. So where does it say that about anxiety disorders?"

The Bible contains the most important truth(s) we need to know; it does not contain all the truth there is. For instance, it doesn't explain to us how an airplane flies. So, OCD and other anxiety disorders are not mentioned in the Bible.

You wrote:

"Bob, you have been doing this for 40 years. I doubt that this time will be different than the others."

Actually, i have been doing this for ten years. Before that, from age 16 on, I understood I was NOT a Christian. Only recently within that latest span of 10 years, in which I have been actively seeking salvation, have certain misconceptions been cleared up.

But you are right about this time being no different than the others. I am already doubting again. I appreciate your trying to counsel me from a Protestant perspective. Many Christians I know are sure I am a Christian. I could and sometimes do thank Christ for my salvation. But I also tend to think: just because I thank Him for my salvation, or just because some others are convinced I am a Christian, doesn't mean I'm really a Christian. There are people who think they are saved and are not. I wonder if I am not sincere, even when I think I'm being sincere. Maybe I'm just fooling myself during (and for a short while, after) all my "conversions."

 

[Mountainmanbob]

I posted that I think that, maybe, even in my most sincere repentences or givings of my life to Christ, I am really, in my heart of hearts, still clinging to self and not submitting to Jesus. In response, aiki wrote:

"But, you see, you're trusting in yourself rather than in Christ for your salvation. You're making your sincerity the key to your salvation. The key, though, isn't you, but the Saviour. He loves you. Enough to bear the guilt and punishment of your sin upon himself on the cross of Calvary. When you are convinced of this, when you are confident in God's infinite love for you, your fear and doubt will dissolve. "He who fears has not been made perfect in love," the Bible says. Your anxiety over your saved condition suggests you haven't really laid hold of the truth of God's love for you. (See 1 John 4:16-19)"

I am thinking that maybe there is yet something I just don't "get" about salvation. John McArthur relates how some people talk/hear/think about Christ, Christianity and the gospel, to something hilarious that used to happen to his wife and him at night. He would be awake and she would be talking in her sleep. She would say something, and he would respond. She would respond to what he said, in her sleep. He would say something and she'd respond again, and so forth. He said that some church speakers would talk in Christian phrases and lingo, but it was like they really just didn't "get" the gospel in their hearts. Their talking about Christianity was something like his wife talking in her sleep. I wonder if my understanding of the gospel is also like his wife talking in her sleep. Maybe I know the basic facts and doctrine, but there is some way I'm just not "getting" it in my heart (or maybe still not even getting it right in my head).

I have a book by JD Greear called "Stop Asking Jesus Into Your Heart: How To Know For Sure You Are Saved." In it, he writes:

"I went out in the woods and yelled at God. Why was He withholding assurance from me? Why was He hiding? Had he predestined me not to be saved, and was that why I couldn't find assurance? Or was He waiting on me to make some promise to Him - about going to the mission field or living in poverty or something - before He'd let me find assurance? Was He punishing me for my sin?

"One day I got so angry at God that I asked Him why He just didn't make me a dog, since dogs at least don't have to worry about going to hell. Often, through tears, I pleaded with God that if He'd let me have an assurance of salvation, I'd be the best Christian who'd ever lived.

"But no matter what I did, what promises I made, or how many times I asked Jesus into my heart, I could not shake the fear I was headed for hell."

In recent days, one of the matters with me has been my attraction to a certain neighborhood woman. I see her walk by my house on a regular basis and we always greet each other. One day last week, when she walked by, I had a seismic reaction to her internally, deciding I was willing to structure my whole life around getting to know her and to getting along with her. But, on some occasions, I have thought about this decision, and said, you know, I've got to make sure I'm a Christian, first and foremost. I can structure my life around her AFTER I become a Christian. I've at times laid this out before God: 'If that potential relationship needs to be dropped, help me to let it drop. I can't let it stand in the way of my salvation.'

SOMETHING has been standing in the way of my salvation, or at least my assurance of salvation, for ten years of seeking. Recently, I have been doing lots of pondering about aiki's post. Maybe there is something I just don't "get" about salvation.

Concentrate on Christ alone.
Attend a church which takes communion.
1 on 1 time with a pastor.
Stay in the Word.
M-Bob

 

[Brianlear]

Whether you are saved or not is, literally, immaterial. This is a matter of the heart and soul. It's not a property of matter, it's not a light bulb that gets "switched" on or off. You can never be completely sure of your salvation without faith. That's what the bible and yeshua teach, though many christians don't live this way. "Saved by faith" seems so simple, yet so many miss it. Saved by faith means there won't ever be any "evidence" you can point to (or anyone else can point to) that you are "saved". Modern humans, especially christians, take a very narrow view of the word "faith", to their detriment. Sometimes it is mis-characterized as just "do you believe in god or not? Yes, okay that's faith." Or even worse, mistaking it for how often you read the bible or don't. No, in reality it is a "firm conviction" in a very foundational way. An unshakable sense that something is real or true. Something that you base your entire life around.

No matter how many times I tell my son that I will pick him up from school later, he still asks "when are you going to pick me up from school?" He knows the answer already, but he just wants to hear my response, again and again. He doesn't just wake up one day with complete faith in me. It takes years. And even then, eventually he'll figure out that I'm not God. He can't have complete faith in me because one day I'll be gone.

Likewise, our journey towards faith is not a short one. And God has way bigger plans for us than just a quick pickup after school. He is "picking us up" and taking us into eternity forever. Perhaps some days (maybe every day), we just need to ask again, to seek reasssurance..."God...you ARE saving me after all this right?" He's the only one who can, afterall. And then listen for his response, it might come in a subtle way. Maybe a smile from a stranger. A brief moment of coincidence. Look at your phone and you'll miss it. Or maybe on that particular day, YOU are the one he wants to use to tell someone ELSE who needs an answer.

Sorry to muddy the waters, but this isn't quick or easy, and, no one EVER said it would be. Though by the way some people advertise it, you wouldn't be faulted for believing otherwise. I think the confusion comes because it "seems" so simple. But very often the simple things, really take a while. To me, if you are getting close to something like "true faith" then you are doing amazing. If you are LOOKING for it you are doing amazing. Most people aren't even looking.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not by your own doing; it is a gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Really ponder what that means.

 

[packermann]

You wrote:

"Where does it say that it the Bible? Protestants say that everything we believe must be in the Bible. So where does it say that about anxiety disorders?"

The Bible contains the most important truth(s) we need to know; it does not contain all the truth there is. For instance, it doesn't explain to us how an airplane flies. So, OCD and other anxiety disorders are not mentioned in the Bible.

Sola scriptura does not teach that the Bible has everything. It teaches that the Bible has everything pertaining to our salvation. Since you are saying that God is taking your disorder into account your salvation, then according to sola scriptura, must be in the Bible.

Bob, I do not believe in sola scriptura. But as a Protestant evangelical, you are supposed to believe it. I am pointing out that as long as you are a Protestant evangelical, I am afraid you may always be plagued with doubts of your salvation, because deep down you know this. I hope I am wrong. I hope it works in thanking Christ for your salvation. But if it does not, I hope you will look into the Catholic faith.

You wrote:

"Bob, you have been doing this for 40 years. I doubt that this time will be different than the others."

Actually, i have been doing this for ten years. Before that, from age 16 on, I understood I was NOT a Christian. Only recently within that latest span of 10 years, in which I have been actively seeking salvation, have certain misconceptions been cleared up.

But you are right about this time being no different than the others. I am already doubting again. I appreciate your trying to counsel me from a Protestant perspective. Many Christians I know are sure I am a Christian. I could and sometimes do thank Christ for my salvation. But I also tend to think: just because I thank Him for my salvation, or just because some others are convinced I am a Christian, doesn't mean I'm really a Christian. There are people who think they are saved and are not. I wonder if I am not sincere, even when I think I'm being sincere. Maybe I'm just fooling myself during (and for a short while, after) all my "conversions."

Concentrate on the love of Christ. Christ died for you! He would have done this even if you were the only one to die for. Think of all the torture He went through for you - just so that you will be with Him for all eternity. He is not going to let you go without a fight.

I do believe that Jesus takes into account your disorder. I was just arguing that it does not fit the Protestant view that everything for our salvation must be in the Bible. But even if there is nothing in the Bible that explicitly says that God takes into account your disorder, it still does explicitly say that God is rich in mercy. I would encourage you to take those verses and memorize them. God's mercy means that God is not a strict God. God remembers that we are but dust. That is why He has allowed the thief on the cross into heaven, even though the thief did meet exactly meet the Catholic or Protestant requirements for salvation. He was not baptized and he did not accept Christ as Savior and Lord. I am not even sure that He even understood that Christ was God and that Christ was dying for his sins. But God took pity on him.

I wished you would become Catholic. There is so much in the Catholic faith to help you to really know the love of Christ. In a Catholic Church, the first thing I see is a crucifix. In an Protestant Church, all I see is two boards crossed together. But in the crucifix, I see Jesus actually dying! His love is more visible. It is not just in the abstract.

There are so many devotions in the Catholic faith to help me to meditate on the sufferings of Christ - the Rosary, the Stations on the Cross, the Holy Wounds. From these devotions, many saints have developed the stigmata, which are wounds on the saints' hands and feet! You can Google it! And google these devotions. There are Protestants would practice these devotions. So you do not have to be Catholic to do them.

And Jesus has given us his mother. The Bible says that we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. So even though He loves us deeply, He still must judge us. But He gave us His mother. His mother is never given the task to judge us. She is there just to love us. She is there just to pray to her Son to have pity on me, even though, strictly speaking, I may not have been not sincere enough. And if only because of His mother's intercession, He will have pity on me.

But most of all, He has come to me in the Holy Eucharist. We Catholics believe that He is there in the host - body, blood, soul, and divinity just as He was here physically 2,000 years. Jesus held up the bread and said "THIS is my body!" Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it! So when I receive the host, it is then I receive Christ in all His fullness. Sure, I can receive Christ through prayer. Then He comes to me spiritually. But in my receiving Him in the host, He comes to me body, blood, soul, and divinity - in all his fullness. I wish you can taste the Lord and see He is good. That was when my life changed. But unfortunately you cannot take a Catholic communion as a Protestant. You must first become a Catholic, or else receiving Christ in the Eucharist will do nothing for you, it would be a sin.

But this you can do. Go to a Catholic Church every day when there is no Mass (Church Service). Go to the Blessed Sacrament contained in a decorated container. They are left-overs of the host from the previous Mass. The hosts are not thrown away. That would be throwing away our Lord. If you cannot find the Blessed Sacrament, then ask someone, but It should be prominently displayed. There should be chairs in front of It for anyone to sit and pray. Sit down there for an hour. I don't care what you do for that hour. Catholics would pray. But you can can read a book, balance your checkbook, etc. Just be silent and not disrespectful. After thirty days, tell me what happens - whether you have sensed that Christ is there is a special way or you sensed nothing.

I pray in front of the Blessed Sacrament for an hour at least once a week. What I am in awe of is His love for me. He is there for me - just me. On the Cross, Christ showed me His love. But in the Eucharist, He presently shows me His love for me. 2,000 years ago he humbled Himself to become a man and die for me. But in the Eucharist, He humbles Himself so much that He became a piece of bread! What humility! What love! How could a God who has loved me so much as that let me be lost for eternity on some technicality!

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