• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Matthew and "prophecies"

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
41
California
✟156,979.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I'm done here.

Done? I missed the part where you got started. All you've done is asserted that I'm wrong. On the other thread where we met you totally schooled that Muslim by saying that "beget" refers to ancestry. You said things. Here you've spewed insults and accusations. Nothing more. Literally nothing more. Go back and read what you've said. Oh and, well, bye I guess. Lol.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
41
California
✟156,979.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
My whole post gives the reason you're wrong.

No, it's just assertion that I'm wrong.


I understood your claim perfectly well the first time, yes.

I doubt that. I'm making it clear that Matthew might have meant everything in a Christ-type of the OT sort of way, not as a literal prophecy. But when Christians go the route of saying that Matthew was showing that the OT predicted future events, I'm forced to call Matthew a liar.

Ah, yes, 'cause a prophecy can have exactly and only one meaning. There's no possible way a prophet of God could be speaking about two things inside one prophecy. Yep. Totally impossible. Totally.

For this to be a rebuttal, you need to say something of substance. Ok... prophecy can have double meaning. That doesn't mean that any reference to the prophecy is automatically valid.

You act like you're crippling my arguments with your "Nuh uh" posts.

Yeah, according to you.

Lol.

You've solidly demonstrated you don't understand Matthew, the Bible, or prophecy at all.

How? Because why? Where? I'm specifically saying that Matthew was probably referring to Christ types in the OT.
 
Upvote 0

dysert

Member
Feb 29, 2012
6,233
2,238
USA
✟120,484.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But when Christians go the route of saying that Matthew was showing that the OT predicted future events, I'm forced to call Matthew a liar.
Huh? How does this follow? I would understand if you'd say that said Christians are wrong (although I don't think they are), but to say, based upon what Christians say, that Matthew is a liar hits a new low.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
41
California
✟156,979.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Huh? How does this follow? I would understand if you'd say that said Christians are wrong (although I don't think they are), but to say, based upon what Christians say, that Matthew is a liar hits a new low.

If Matthew is saying that Isaiah intended to prophecy about Jesus, then Matthew is lying. The context of Isaiah 7 makes this obvious.
 
Upvote 0

dysert

Member
Feb 29, 2012
6,233
2,238
USA
✟120,484.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If Matthew is saying that Isaiah intended to prophecy about Jesus, then Matthew is lying. The context of Isaiah 7 makes this obvious.
Do you think Matthew is saying that? And even if you do, why not conclude that perhaps Matthew was mistaken instead of lying?
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
41
California
✟156,979.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Do you think Matthew is saying that?

No.

And even if you do, why not conclude that perhaps Matthew was mistaken instead of lying?

Because Matthew does the same thing over and over. I don't think he's lying, but some Christians dismiss the notion of the Christ type of the OT because it does not actually demonstrate God's power, and instead they say that Matthew is pointing out where OT prophets predicted the future. And in the latter case, I'm forced to show that Matthew is a liar.
 
Upvote 0

Tree of Life

Hide The Pain
Feb 15, 2013
8,824
6,252
✟55,667.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Just two chapters into Matthew we can see twice where, by modern standards, Matthew is outright lying to the reader. But what about ancient standards?

In another thread, in a comment that was not directed at me, this was said:



Very true. But Christians love to have their cake and eat it too. On the one hand they'll play this card to defend Christianity, but they then remain silent and refuse to correct some other ignorant Christian who says that prophecy in the Bible is strong evidence for God's existence because a prophecy is the accurate prediction of future events. Prophecy in the Bible is NOT a prediction of future events. I will allow Matthew to illustrate this.


Matthew 2:14-15 says,

And [Joseph] arose and took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt; and was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt did I call my son.

This is a reference to Hosea 11:1, which says,

When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.



This is an illustration of Matthew's idea that the Christ-type existed all throughout the scriptures. But clearly Hosea is not predicting future events. Hosea is describing past events and making no comment about the future. The knowledgeable Christians know this, yet do not dispense the information.

Another obvious example from Matthew is Matthew 1:23, which says,

Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Immanuel; which is, being interpreted, God with us.


This is a reference to Isaiah 7:14, but a quick read of the context of that verse shows that Isaiah is not referring to an event that is hundreds of years in the future. I don't want to post it here because it will take up the whole page, but do I do encourage everyone to read Isaiah 7 in full context.


So it seems reasonable to say that Matthew cannot be taken at his word when it comes to prophecies.

Matthew says that these Scriptures are fulfilled. A cursory reading of Matthew shows that Matthew has a nuanced notion of fulfillment. Sometimes “fulfill” is talking about the promise/fulfillment framework in the way we would expect. But other times, especially in Matthew, “fulfill” can refer to typology and also refer to what’s come to be known as sensus plenior. If you expect Matthew to be referring to the standard promise/fulfillment framework every time he says that Scripture is fulfilled in Christ then you will wind up very confused.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
41
California
✟156,979.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Matthew says that these Scriptures are fulfilled. A cursory reading of Matthew shows that Matthew has a nuanced notion of fulfillment. Sometimes “fulfill” is talking about the promise/fulfillment framework in the way we would expect. But other times, especially in Matthew, “fulfill” can refer to typology and also refer to what’s come to be known as sensus plenior. If you expect Matthew to be referring to the standard promise/fulfillment framework every time he says that Scripture is fulfilled in Christ then you will wind up very confused.

I'm not confused. I'm pointing out that Christians who have, as you say, a nuanced understanding of scripture should not allow or encourage the false belief that scripture predicted future events.
 
Upvote 0

Tree of Life

Hide The Pain
Feb 15, 2013
8,824
6,252
✟55,667.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
I'm not confused. I'm pointing out that Christians who have, as you say, a nuanced understanding of scripture should not allow or encourage the false belief that scripture predicted future events.

Some prophecies do fit the model of promise/fulfillment and predict future events.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
41
California
✟156,979.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Some prophecies do fit the model of promise/fulfillment and predict future events.

Yet Christians tend to say that they do predict future events, and only retreat to this weaker position when inconsistencies are brought to light.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,946
11,096
okie
✟222,536.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Yet Christians tend to say that they do predict future events, and only retreat to this weaker position when inconsistencies are brought to light.
No problem. What they do does not change the Truth at all...
 
Upvote 0