• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Matthew 7 and modern day Christian hypocrisy

Aaron Lindahl

Newbie
Dec 12, 2014
41
1
55
Seattle, Washington state
✟22,661.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Matthew 7 - "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."


The Christians who repeatedly use their measure and judgment to attack, condemn, persecute, and reject gay people with are now being measured and judged by their same standards, and are found to have fallen far short, and are shown to be full of religious hypocrisy. They have been found to be exactly as the people in Matthew 23:28 describe them. Since they took it upon themselves to judge and measure others in clear defiance of what the Bible teaches 'not' to do, they have thus brought the same judgment back upon themselves as the Bible says will happen in such situations.


Now, here are my questions to every Christian who repeatedly commits the sin listed above:


Where in the Bible does it say it's okay to repeatedly and unrepentantly ignore and disobey the teachings from Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and in 1 Timothy 2:11-12 as most Christians do today?


Where in the Bible does it say it's okay to repeatedly and unrepentantly ignore and disobey the 7th Commandment, as defined by Luke 16:18 as most Christians do today?


Why is it that almost all churches openly welcome into their congregations the following people who have committed the following unrepentant sin (as defined by Biblical Scripture), while rejecting and condemning 'unrepentant' homosexuals? Unrepentant, because so many keep divorcing and re-marrying with no rejection or negative consequences by their congregations, such as is done to homosexual people. Is there a place in the Bible where it says you can ignore the sin of people repeatedly committing adultery as defined by the Bible below, but the same people and churches who ignore that sin can repeatedly attack, condemn, and reject gay people for their perceived sins? For some strange reason, no one is able to answer these questions.... unless of course, it is because they are practicing utter religious hypocrisy.


Exodus 20:14 (One of the 10 Commandments)

"You shall not commit adultery.”


Luke 16:18

“Any man who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery."


1 Corinthians 6:9

“Do you not know that unrighteous men will not inherit the kingdom of God? Cherish no delusion here. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor any who are guilty of unnatural crime.”


So many Christians try to rationalize this but it is clear that a true follower of Jesus can neither divorce someone if the spouse has not committed adultery, nor marry someone who is divorced without becoming an adulterer themselves. There is an exception to the rule, however. If a spouse commits adultery, divorce is permissible. On the same token, the Bible also says that anyone who obtains a divorce and marries another is an adulterer. Remember that 83% of this country identifies as Christian yet we have a 50% divorce rate for first marriages, a 67% divorce rate for 2nd marriages, and a 73% divorce rate for 3rd marriages and beyond.. A majority of divorces are a result of irreconcilable differences, not adultery, which shows that such Christians are again practicing selective morality. How many Christians are working on a second, third or fourth marriage?


On the following subject of religious hypocrisy and double-standards, I'm completely aware that for most modern-day churches the following teachings are completely inconvenient and most might say, not applicable to an enlightened, modern society. Still.... why is it that almost all Churches do not obey the following New Testament teachings, and ignore them? Where in the Bible does it say it’s okay to ignore these commands?


1 Corinthians 14:34-35

“Women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.…”


1 Timothy 2:11-12

“A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.”


It quite clearly says that an adulterer cannot enter the Kingdom of God, and yet the majority of modern day congregations are all adulterers by the Bible's clear definition, and the majority of modern day congregations allow their women members to speak anytime they wish to in church, even though the Bible clearly says in the New Testament that that's forbidden. So... Please educate me on why the examples of sin, commandments, and teachings listed above can be ignored, while the sin of homosexual love and desire, cannot be.
 
Last edited:

MarkRohfrietsch

Unapologetic Apologist
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2007
30,984
5,814
✟1,009,179.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
MOD HAT...

This thread is a debate and discussion thread and is therefore off topic to the formal debate proposal forum.

This thread has been moved to Christian Scriptures, which is better suited to the topic.

Mark
Advisers Assistant.
 
Upvote 0

St_Worm2

Simul Justus et Peccator
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2002
28,146
45,799
68
✟3,114,329.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Hi Aaron, I see you are new here, so first off, WELCOME TO CF .. :wave:

As to your post above, I was immediately struck by two things as I read through it. First, that your opening Scripture reference is Matthew 7:1-2. And second, that you seem oblivious to the fact that by the words of your post, you could be considered guilty of committing the very same sin that you've just charged so many others with, "judgmentalism".

You made several serious indictments concerning the sinfulness of "most" Christians, and of "most" Churches (claiming they are guilty of looking the other way, at least where certain Christians' sins are involved). Do you have any evidence that you could share with us demonstrating that "fact" .. :scratch:

In fairness, are there Christians and Churches out there who are guilty of what you accuse them of? Unfortunately, I am sure there are. Are "most" guilty as charged, I don't think so, at least I could not say so based upon my personal experience anyway.

I do agree with your original premise however, judgmentalism is wrong when it's aimed at homosexuals (of course, it's equally wrong when it's aimed at anyone else, including brothers and sisters in Christ, as I'm sure you'd agree).

Back to your OP, I have a question for you so I can better understand where you are coming from in all this. Clearly you believe adultery is a sin (so do I). Do you also believe homosexual acts/lusts are sins as well?

Finally, here are some verses to consider concerning Christians and what the Bible tells us to do when confronted by another's sinfulness.

“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault..." Matthew 18:15a

"If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him" Luke 17:3b

"Remember this, he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover over a multitude of sins." James 5:20

How do you believe Matthew 7:1-2 can be reconciled with verses such as these .. :confused:

Thanks! There is much more to discuss in your OP, but this is enough for now.

Yours and His,
David


“Do not judge according to appearance,
but judge with righteous judgment.”

John 7:24
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bobinator

Senior Member
Jul 30, 2007
1,660
141
✟19,399.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Aaron, you’re right about Christians being hyprocrites. The first place to look is usually in the mirror.



There are a few scriptures you quoted may be taken out of context.
Homosexuality is a spiritual plague. One that God saw fit to deal with by capital punishment under the covenant he made with the Israelites. It didn’t apply to the gentiles. Adultery was treated with similar consequences, as it too is infectious and cause serious harm to families, not to mention the spiritual filth that it would fester and spread. Adultery was referred to as a sin. However, homosexual acts committed by two men was called an abomination, along with laying with animals. There is a difference in the nature of the sin. The fact that Christians are guilty of committing sin does not excuse us from condemning sexual perversions, especially in the house of God.


There are varying severities of sin.


1John5: [FONT=&quot][16][/FONT][FONT=&quot] If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.[17] All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Regarding what Jesus said in Luke 16:18 about adultery, you’re ignoring what Jesus said in Matthew 19:11- [/FONT]“But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.” In other words, there are exceptions to the rule, and God may still forgive and provide grace. There are circumstances that warrant a divorce outside of adultery, especially if it involves the health and safety of those involved.
Concerning the scriptures about women in the church, Bible scholars and commentators spoke of a time when men sat in the front while women were seated in the back. This was before PA systems were invented. The women would often call out to their husbands to ask questions. Women would also gossip among themselves, causing disruptions during the sermon. This is why Paul says for them to ask questions of their husbands at home.


1Tim.2:11-12 was more direct and is a subject few people understand, much less accept. I understand it, but that’s an entire sermon. Even then, it’s difficult, so I won’t get into this now. Still, it’s not a sin unto death and should never be equated to homosexuality, nor should it stop us from speaking against it.


And lastly, here’s what Jesus said about his judgments-
John 8: [15] “Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.[16] And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.”


God has judged homosexuality. We know his judgments. If we judge accordingly, then we are in agreement with God. It is not we who judge, but the Father.


1Corin. 6:3- ”Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?”
 
Upvote 0

football5680

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2013
4,138
1,517
Georgia
✟105,332.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
There is a difference between judging somebody and simply proclaiming what God has said. If God has judged them and the acts they perform then it would be a sin to keep this information private and allow them to go to hell unknowingly.
 
Upvote 0

Aaron Lindahl

Newbie
Dec 12, 2014
41
1
55
Seattle, Washington state
✟22,661.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hi Aaron, I see you are new here, so first off, WELCOME TO CF .. :wave:

As to your post above, I was immediately struck by two things as I read through it. First, that your opening Scripture reference is Matthew 7:1-2. And second, that you seem oblivious to the fact that by the words of your post, you could be considered guilty of committing the very same sin that you've just charged so many others with, "judgmentalism".

You made several serious indictments concerning the sinfulness of "most" Christians, and of "most" Churches (claiming they are guilty of looking the other way, at least where certain Christians' sins are involved). Do you have any evidence that you could share with us demonstrating that "fact" .. :scratch:

In fairness, are there Christians and Churches out there who are guilty of what you accuse them of? Unfortunately, I am sure there are. Are "most" guilty as charged, I don't think so, at least I could not say so based upon my personal experience anyway.

I do agree with your original premise however, judgmentalism is wrong when it's aimed at homosexuals (of course, it's equally wrong when it's aimed at anyone else, including brothers and sisters in Christ, as I'm sure you'd agree).

Back to your OP, I have a question for you so I can better understand where you are coming from in all this. Clearly you believe adultery is a sin (so do I). Do you also believe homosexual acts/lusts are sins as well?

Finally, here are some verses to consider concerning Christians and what the Bible tells us to do when confronted by another's sinfulness.

“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault..." Matthew 18:15a

"If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him" Luke 17:3b

"Remember this, he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover over a multitude of sins." James 5:20

How do you believe Matthew 7:1-2 can be reconciled with verses such as these .. :confused:

Thanks! There is much more to discuss in your OP, but this is enough for now.

Yours and His,
David


“Do not judge according to appearance,
but judge with righteous judgment.”

John 7:24



Hi David, and thank you for the welcome!

I'm saying what is said in Matthew 7 - "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."


The Christians who repeatedly use a measure and judgment to attack, condemn, persecute, and reject gay people with are now being measured and judged by their same standards, and are found to have fallen far short, and are shown to be full of religious hypocrisy. They have been found to be exactly as the people in Matthew 23:28 describe them. Since they took it upon themselves to judge and measure others in clear defiance of what the Bible teaches 'not' to do, they have thus brought the same judgment back upon themselves as the Bible says will happen in such situations.


That said, I think it would be beneficial to reflect upon the following teachings:


James 4:12

"There is only one lawgiver and judge, He who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?"


Matthew 22:36-39

“Teacher,” he asked, “which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the greatest and the most important commandment. The second most important commandment is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’"


1 Corinthians 13:1-8

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful.."


Matthew 6:14-15

"For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."


Matthew 23:28 - "Even so, outwardly you appear righteous to people, but within you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."


Proverbs 26:26 - "Their malice may be concealed by deception, but their wickedness will be exposed in the assembly."


Matthew 23:27 - "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean."


Matthew 6:5

"When you pray, don't be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues only so that everyone can see them. I tell you the truth, that is all the reward they will ever get.”


The topic is about hypocritical, double-standard Christians who almost daily clamor loudly about the unrepented "SINS!" of the "HOMOSEXUALS!", while completely ignoring their own repeatedly unrepentant SINS that clearly condemn them to the same hell they seem to relish imagining the 'unrepentant' gays burning and writhing in for eternity.

I simply desire other Christians to honestly answer the questions I posed above, or admit that the majority of 'Christians' today will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven if judged by the same Biblical standards they hold gay people to. "Do not judge, lest by the same standards you use on others, you be judged in return, and by the standards you hold others to, 'you' be found to be lacking."
 
Upvote 0

ebedmelech

My dog Micah in the pic
Site Supporter
Jul 3, 2012
9,002
680
✟212,364.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Aaron, the first thing you must understand is every Christian is a work in progress. We will all commit sins until the day we die.

The thing I'd like to point out to you is the way you're interpreting Matthew 7:1, 2. Look at that:
“Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
2 For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

I don't think this is talking about simply making a judgment of others actions, thoughts and ideas. I think this is about judging a person in a "self righteous" way. The point being, it doesn't take long for others to see sin in our own lives.

I say that because Jesus also said this in John John 7:24:
24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

What's the difference Aaron?

We have to make judgements of things others do as Christians daily in life. Those judgments are dirven by what we know God's word says WE should be.

The main thing is we shouldn't think we are righteous and others are not. That is the point Jesus is making.

We have to always remember "There is NONE righteous, NOT EVEN ONE" (Romans 3:2).

When you come across those "self righteous" people Aaron, don't let it bug you. Look for that opportunity to graciously make a brother or sister know they are being self righteous. It may come, and then again, it may not.
:thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

Aaron Lindahl

Newbie
Dec 12, 2014
41
1
55
Seattle, Washington state
✟22,661.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hi ebedmelech, (I love the picture of your very cute dog by the way!)

I'm saying that half or over half of almost every Christian congregation who rails against the sins of homosexuals, and who doesn't accept them (open unrepentant gay people) into their congregations has committed a sin that clearly says that 'they' too will not be able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.. How in the world can they justify that moral double standard and hypocrisy??

Exodus 20:14 (One of the 10 Commandments)

"You shall not commit adultery.”


Luke 16:18

“Any man who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery."


1 Corinthians 6:9

“Do you not know that unrighteous men will not inherit the kingdom of God? Cherish no delusion here. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor any who are guilty of unnatural crime.”


So many Christians try to rationalize this but it is clear that a true follower of Jesus can neither divorce someone if the spouse has not committed adultery, nor marry someone who is divorced without becoming an adulterer themselves. There is an exception to the rule, however. If a spouse commits adultery, divorce is permissible. On the same token, the Bible also says that anyone who obtains a divorce and marries another is an adulterer. Remember that 83% of this country identifies as Christian yet we have a 50% divorce rate for first marriages, a 67% divorce rate for 2nd marriages, and a 73% divorce rate for 3rd marriages and beyond.. A majority of divorces are a result of irreconcilable differences, not adultery, which shows that such Christians are again practicing selective morality. How many Christians are working on a second, third or fourth marriage?

Now, unless I'm somehow misunderstanding the very clear teachings in the verses I listed above as to what constitutes 'adultery', and the very clear teachings in the verse I listed above that says that adulterers 'cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven', how in the world is it justifiable for them to keep on condemning and rejecting homosexuals over their sin while they themselves are committing a sin that the Bible clearly says will bar them from Heaven just as they believe (unrepentant) gays will be??
 
Upvote 0

ebedmelech

My dog Micah in the pic
Site Supporter
Jul 3, 2012
9,002
680
✟212,364.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Hi ebedmelech, (I love the picture of your very cute dog by the way!)
Thank you! :thumbsup:

I'm saying that half or over half of almost every Christian congregation who rails against the sins of homosexuals, and who doesn't accept them (open unrepentant gay people) into their congregations has committed a sin that clearly says that 'they' too will not be able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.. How in the world can they justify that moral double standard and hypocrisy??[/quote]
Do you not know this is mandated by scripture? 1 Corinthians 5:9-12:
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?


That's pretty clear Aaron. The apostle realizes that outside of the church we are going to be in contact with unbelievers everyday. However INSIDE the church is a different matter altogether...and the church is instructed not to keep company with people who are "so-called" Christians, and are doing such sins.
Exodus 20:14 (One of the 10 Commandments)

"You shall not commit adultery.”
That is correct. This too is just as bad...however don't get it confused. There are plenty of churches holding that standard. What you must look at, is we as believers don't hold one another accountable to scripture within the church.
Luke 16:18

“Any man who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery."


1 Corinthians 6:9

“Do you not know that unrighteous men will not inherit the kingdom of God? Cherish no delusion here. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor any who are guilty of unnatural crime.”


So many Christians try to rationalize this but it is clear that a true follower of Jesus can neither divorce someone if the spouse has not committed adultery, nor marry someone who is divorced without becoming an adulterer themselves. There is an exception to the rule, however. If a spouse commits adultery, divorce is permissible. On the same token, the Bible also says that anyone who obtains a divorce and marries another is an adulterer. Remember that 83% of this country identifies as Christian yet we have a 50% divorce rate for first marriages, a 67% divorce rate for 2nd marriages, and a 73% divorce rate for 3rd marriages and beyond.. A majority of divorces are a result of irreconcilable differences, not adultery, which shows that such Christians are again practicing selective morality. How many Christians are working on a second, third or fourth marriage?

Now, unless I'm somehow misunderstanding the very clear teachings in the verses I listed above as to what constitutes 'adultery', and the very clear teachings in the verse I listed above that says that adulterers 'cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven', how in the world is it justifiable for them to keep on condemning and rejecting homosexuals over their sin while they themselves are committing a sin that the Bible clearly says will bar them from Heaven just as they believe (unrepentant) gays will be??
This is the only answer I have for you...Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me,


This is the clear declaration of John as he speaks in Revelation 22:14, 15:
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.


I think you make good points, but realize there are many people claiming Christ and the life they live is not true to that. That includes churches too. We cannot be selective about sin in the church, and the church has to deal with all according to scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Bobinator

Senior Member
Jul 30, 2007
1,660
141
✟19,399.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I think James 4 provides a better perspective on the use of the word "judge". James refers to judging in the context of fighting and bickering through pride, envy and the lusts of the flesh. There is a clear distinction between discerning good and evil, and personally attacking people out of our carnal nature.

Judging from the eyes of the Lord is what the Bible encourages. Judging others from the weakness of our flesh is what we need to avoid.

And yes, we will be judged according to how we judge others. This is consistent with the commandment to love others as we do ourselves. There's nothing wrong with implementing corrective actions, knowing full well that we ourselves are subject to the same.

As a father, I discipline my children out of love, and because I want the best for them.

Dealing with sin in the church and homosexuality is an act of love, knowing that practioners of such will spend eternity in Hell if they refuse to repent. Calling Christians hateful for confronting a wicked sin like homosexuality is patently absurd.

Jas.4
[1] From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
[2] Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
[3] Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
[4] Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
[5] Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
[6] But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
[7] Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
[8] Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
[9] Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
[10] Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
[11] Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
[12] There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
[13] Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
[14] Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
[15] For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
[16] But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
[17] Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Aaron, thanks for the opportunity to comment on this matter. It is a worthy topic and a much needed discussion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dgoner
Upvote 0

Aaron Lindahl

Newbie
Dec 12, 2014
41
1
55
Seattle, Washington state
✟22,661.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Thank you Bobinator, so.... does that mean that knowing that adulterers will spend eternity in hell as the Bible says, that all of the churches and Christians who loudly condemn homosexuals and reject them from their congregations will now loudly condemn the half or over portion of their congregations who have committed the sin of adultery as defined in the Bible and kick them all out and reject them in a similar act of love?
 
Upvote 0

Bobinator

Senior Member
Jul 30, 2007
1,660
141
✟19,399.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Thank you Bobinator, so.... does that mean that knowing that adulterers will spend eternity in hell as the Bible says, that all of the churches and Christians who loudly condemn homosexuals and reject them from their congregations will now loudly condemn the half or over portion of their congregations who have committed the sin of adultery as defined in the Bible and kick them all out and reject them in a similar act of love?

I don't think churches are kicking homosexuals out of the church. Seems that they're leaving voluntarily before labeling Christians as "Haters". Or, they're avoiding us altogether. Generally speaking, pastors are supposed to confront all sexual sin in the church. You quoted 1Corin. 6:9 where Paul spoke of adulterors not inheriting the kingdom.

I think there's a difference between committing adultery and committing continuous acts of adultery, like those having ongoing affairs with married people.

A person who marries someone that is divorced may be involved in a single act of adultery committed under better circumstances than purposefully breaking a covenant that is still whole. I'm not giving a free pass to sin, but I've known God to bless marriages after divorce because he is gracious and forgiving. But God will not tolerate ongoing adulterous relationships, and neither should the church.

Fornication and shacking up (living together in a sexual relationship outside of marriage) are also big no-no's. Pastors are not obligated to shepherd this kind of flock, but often avoid these issues due to financial reasons for which they will be held accountable one day.
 
Upvote 0

chalk2

Newbie
Dec 10, 2014
14
1
✟23,639.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I don't think churches are kicking homosexuals out of the church. Seems that they're leaving voluntarily before labeling Christians as "Haters". Or, they're avoiding us altogether. Generally speaking, pastors are supposed to confront all sexual sin in the church. You quoted 1Corin. 6:9 where Paul spoke of adulterors not inheriting the kingdom.

I think there's a difference between committing adultery and committing continuous acts of adultery, like those having ongoing affairs with married people.

A person who marries someone that is divorced may be involved in a single act of adultery committed under better circumstances than purposefully breaking a covenant that is still whole. I'm not giving a free pass to sin, but I've known God to bless marriages after divorce because he is gracious and forgiving. But God will not tolerate ongoing adulterous relationships, and neither should the church.

Fornication and shacking up (living together in a sexual relationship outside of marriage) are also big no-no's. Pastors are not obligated to shepherd this kind of flock, but often avoid these issues due to financial reasons for which they will be held accountable one day.

You have an excellent lens and see things clearly. I think you framed the topic with appropriate perspective.

Wanton, repeated, continuous, and ongoing sin and its consequences is a very different position in the heart of a man than a heart that recognizes sin, repents sin, and turns FROM sin.
 
Upvote 0

ebedmelech

My dog Micah in the pic
Site Supporter
Jul 3, 2012
9,002
680
✟212,364.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Thank you, but what about: 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 ?

"For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. Expel the wicked person from among you."
The point Paul makes here is it is NOT our purview as Christian to judge those outside the church. God will do that. We are only to exercise discipline on those that are IN the church.

Paul is telling the church at Corinth how to discipline their own in this chapter. In 1 Corinthians 5:1 the situation is presented:
It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife.

A person in the congregation was actually having sexual relations with his fathers wife. This is why the apostle is addressing the matter. The church is to exercise discipline over it's members. This is something a lot of churches don't do, and it's the reason so many churches are in bad light. We believers tend to think "it's nobody's business" what I do. However, the scriptures teach us to be accountable to each other (Ephesians 4:25-31). I think all of us have been guilty of this at some time.

Interesting about this person in 1 Corinthians 5, is the church at Corinth went overboard with the discipline of that member, and in 2 Corinthians 2:5-11: the apostle urges the church to restore that person. The church is to discipline in love, and restore in love!

:thumbsup:
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Aaron Lindahl

Newbie
Dec 12, 2014
41
1
55
Seattle, Washington state
✟22,661.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The people who I refer to constantly say that 'God' is the one judging on these sins, and they are only following His commands, regrettably harsh as they may seem they piously point out, but it is not God down here speaking through a burning bush.. rejecting, condemning, and making other people feel like dirt or worthless, but rather 'they' themselves who are doing that, while exhorting others to do the same sinful and hateful thing; thus taking the place of God in doing so. We can see that happening on a much more violent level today in Islam by the ISIS and Al-Qaeda fanatics... who seem to believe that they are 'Allah' or 'God' themselves on this Earth, and take it upon themselves to brutalize, condemn, reject, judge, and in many cases kill the perceived 'sinners' in the name of their God, ignoring all teachings of love and acceptance of our fellow human souls we share this Earth with. Thus began the shameful Christian Inquisition of our past... from precisely such misguided people. For 'our' religion of Christ's teachings, I think the following Biblical Scripture describes them very well, as they are the modern day equivalent of the Pharisees, who used the 'Law' at the time to condemn all others over even the slightest variance from such rigid, static, and unforgiving beliefs, and who even plotted to arrest and then assassinate Jesus Himself, over breaking Scriptural Law because He 'worked' on the Sabbath by picking grain from the fields to feed his hungry followers. Their professed 'love' of others (i.e. 'love the sinner, hate the sin') is the same type of love as a spouse who beats his wife almost to death, and then tells her "I love you so much." It is a truly evil and hateful sickness of both the spirit and the mind, that they infect entire congregations with:

1 Corinthians 13:4-8

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails."

James 4:12

"God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy. But you--who do you think you are to judge your neighbor?"

Matthew 23:13-15

“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves."

Matthew 23:28

"In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness."

Matthew 23:27

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all that is foul and unclean."
 
Upvote 0

St_Worm2

Simul Justus et Peccator
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2002
28,146
45,799
68
✟3,114,329.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
I'm saying what is said in Matthew 7 - "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Actually Aaron, you are not. You may be quoting the text, but you are not, "saying what is said in Matthew 7", because that implies that the meaning you've assigned to those words is correct, when it is anything but.

One of the basic principles of Biblical exegesis is that the Bible does not contradict itself. But if we accept the meaning you've given to the words of Matthew 7:1-2, the Bible ends up contradicting itself over and over again (as I pointed out in my last post) and, in fact, even goes so far as to pit Matthew 7 against Matthew 7 (see v1-2 and v6).

Yours and His,
David
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

St_Worm2

Simul Justus et Peccator
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2002
28,146
45,799
68
✟3,114,329.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
The people who I refer to constantly say that 'God' is the one judging on these sins, and they are only following His commands, regrettably harsh as they may seem they piously point out, but it is not God down here speaking through a burning bush.. rejecting, condemning, and making other people feel like dirt or worthless, but rather 'they' themselves who are doing that, while exhorting others to do the same sinful and hateful thing; thus taking the place of God in doing so. We can see that happening on a much more violent level today in Islam by the ISIS and Al-Qaeda fanatics... who seem to believe that they are 'Allah' or 'God' themselves on this Earth, and take it upon themselves to brutalize, condemn, reject, judge, and in many cases kill the perceived 'sinners' in the name of their God, ignoring all teachings of love and acceptance of our fellow human souls we share this Earth with. Thus began the shameful Christian Inquisition of our past... from precisely such misguided people. For 'our' religion of Christ's teachings, I think the following Biblical Scripture describes them very well, as they are the modern day equivalent of the Pharisees, who used the 'Law' at the time to condemn all others over even the slightest variance from such rigid, static, and unforgiving beliefs, and who even plotted to arrest and then assassinate Jesus Himself, over breaking Scriptural Law because He 'worked' on the Sabbath by picking grain from the fields to feed his hungry followers. Their professed 'love' of others (i.e. 'love the sinner, hate the sin') is the same type of love as a spouse who beats his wife almost to death, and then tells her "I love you so much." It is a truly evil and hateful sickness of both the spirit and the mind, that they infect entire congregations with.

You know Aaron, you came here and from the get-go have been breathing out smoke and flames from your nostrils, guns a'blazing, all aimed at your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. You started out by saying that "most" or "all" of us are guilty of the sin of judgmentalism toward homosexuals, but you have yet to show us any evidence of this "fact". Please, you must have at least some evidence of this wide-spread persecution to be making such claims. Please enlighten us by sharing these documented, real life events with us because I for one, have experienced quite the opposite throughout my Christian life, particularly in recent years.

For instance, you say that churches look the other way when confronted with the sin of adultery, while dismissing homosexuals out of hand. If this is true, at least give us the names of the congregations you are referring to because as I said above, I have only witnessed the opposite being true. In the four churches that I've been a part of for the last 26 years, I have seen a number of husbands and wives who divorced or just left their spouses for no legitimate Biblical reason be asked to repent or leave. On the other hand, none of these same churches has ever asked a person to leave because they were homosexual.

Also, while you continue to rant on about all of the persecution homosexuals face from Christians and the churches they attend, I see just the opposite happening across the nation with major denominations not only embracing them like they never have before, but marrying them (the PCUSA comes immediately to mind due to their recent change of denominational policy).

So I put it to you again, where is all of this wide-spread persecution you speak of .. :scratch: You continue:


1 Corinthians 13:4-8

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails."

Hey, all right, you included v6 this time around which reads, "love does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth". And how true that is. Football commented on this fact earlier in this thread and he is right. If we know someone's sinful, unrepentant lifestyle may result in their eternal death and we have the opportunity to say something to them (perhaps even lead them to Christ) but don't, not only is that sinful on our part, how can you possibly say that such a thing could ever be an act of "love"?

Again, outside of answering that last question of mine, please share with us at least some evidence of the wide-spread, daily persecution of gays by true Christians and their congregations that you have spoken of here since your arrival because, as I mentioned earlier, I haven't witnessed or read about any of it (except for a very isolated case here or there every few years) and I would like to know about it if it is actually happening.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: dgoner
Upvote 0

ebedmelech

My dog Micah in the pic
Site Supporter
Jul 3, 2012
9,002
680
✟212,364.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I hope you don't take this the wrong way Aaron, but "slow your roll" and go back and read the totality of scripture.

hat you are showing here is that you "cherry pick scripture"...what scriptures you like you post, and what scriptures you don't like...you don't post.

That's not going to get it done! You need to heed the whole counsel of God, and apply it to yourself. That is, deal with ALL the bible says about immorality, because what you're doing now is akin to manufacturing your own Christianity
 
Upvote 0