Matthew 7 14.

razzelflabben

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Ok, let's start with some basics.

Was Abraham righteous? Was Abraham sinless? Yes. And certainly not.

Romans 4:3
What does Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Which was quoted from Genesis 15:6: And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

One is imputed by God, and not of ourselves, and the other is attaining legal and moral perfection. But one has got nothing to do with the other.

If sin can no longer condemn us (Romans 8:1), non-sinning doesn't save us either.

Now was Jesus righteous? Was Jesus sinless? Interesting, isn't it?
I don't see anywhere where you answered the question and honestly I don't find it as interesting as the totality of the teaching. You see, Abraham was OT, that is, before Christ, the perfected sacrifice. So this doesn't really tell us anything but that our effort is part of the whole picture. A part that without the rest (aka Jesus) is meaningless. IOW's, Jesus gives meaning to our efforts, and that meaning is through faith...
 
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Andry

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I don't see anywhere where you answered the question and honestly I don't find it as interesting as the totality of the teaching. You see, Abraham was OT, that is, before Christ, the perfected sacrifice. So this doesn't really tell us anything but that our effort is part of the whole picture. A part that without the rest (aka Jesus) is meaningless. IOW's, Jesus gives meaning to our efforts, and that meaning is through faith...
Abraham got saved exactly the way we were/are - by faith.

And what efforts?
 
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kristina411

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You've confused righteousness with sinlessness. One has got nothing to do with the other.

I don't believe I have, so there must be some confusion between the two of us.
In order to obtain righteousness we must have two things.
1. Faith. The cross, believing Jesus is the son of God and that through his crucifixion we are able to be saved. But this is where everyone stops.
2. Righteousness requires being morally upright, particularly in Gods commands. I will reference only Matthew as that is my study section this month but going back just quickly skimming I can find multiple verses that back up the need to follow law, for the kingdom, to do good, and for righteousness. I know there are more but a quick skim provided me with: Matthew 7:21-23, 12:33-37, 12:50, 13:41, 16:27, 18:6-9, 19:17, 22:11-14, 22:40, 23:23.

There are verses like Matthew 10:32-33, 11:29-30, 15:8-9, 19:20-21, 22:37 that place a great significance on faith, but it is my opinion that righteousness requires not one but both.
 
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razzelflabben

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Abraham got saved exactly the way we were/are - by faith.

And what efforts?
:confused: are you confusing works righteousness with applying our strength to our spiritual health? Seriously, many people confuse the two, I thought we had clarified the difference already. Salvation is only through belief of the heart... Now look at Phil. 2:12; II Cor. 7:15; Phil. 1:5; Phil 4:15; Heb. 5:9; Titus 3:14; James 3:18; Luke 3:8; Acts 26:20; Ephs 5:8-9

All of these passages talk about the response, the effort we apply to our salvation and the righteousness of Christ that is imputed to us upon that salvation. So, you have a long way to go to prove your point...keep going....
 
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Andry

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:confused: are you confusing works righteousness with applying our strength to our spiritual health? Seriously, many people confuse the two, I thought we had clarified the difference already. Salvation is only through belief of the heart... Now look at Phil. 2:12; II Cor. 7:15; Phil. 1:5; Phil 4:15; Heb. 5:9; Titus 3:14; James 3:18; Luke 3:8; Acts 26:20; Ephs 5:8-9

All of these passages talk about the response, the effort we apply to our salvation and the righteousness of Christ that is imputed to us upon that salvation. So, you have a long way to go to prove your point...keep going....
I'm not trying to prove any point actually. It's not about winning this with you, with respect.

Perhaps define what you mean by "works righteoussness". Not to suggest the scriptures you listed are comprehensive, but as I go through them might I suggest a few that you read through and respond back with your thoughts?

Romans 1:17
For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed - a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

John 16:8-10
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

And Hebrews 5:13
Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.
 
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Andry

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I don't believe I have, so there must be some confusion between the two of us.
In order to obtain righteousness we must have two things.
1. Faith. The cross, believing Jesus is the son of God and that through his crucifixion we are able to be saved. But this is where everyone stops.
2. Righteousness requires being morally upright, particularly in Gods commands. I will reference only Matthew as that is my study section this month but going back just quickly skimming I can find multiple verses that back up the need to follow law, for the kingdom, to do good, and for righteousness. I know there are more but a quick skim provided me with: Matthew 7:21-23, 12:33-37, 12:50, 13:41, 16:27, 18:6-9, 19:17, 22:11-14, 22:40, 23:23.

There are verses like Matthew 10:32-33, 11:29-30, 15:8-9, 19:20-21, 22:37 that place a great significance on faith, but it is my opinion that righteousness requires not one but both.
Kristina, let me go through them verse before I respond. :)
 
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Andry

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Please do and be sure to see Matthew 5:20 as well, somehow I skipped past this when posting, and keep in mind the Pharisees were righteous by law but not righteous enough because they were not by faith. Going by that, shows there is significance placed on both :)
Ooops, "first" not "verse". :D
 
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razzelflabben

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I'm not trying to prove any point actually. It's not about winning this with you, with respect.
not how I meant that comment, but moving on....
Perhaps define what you mean by "works righteoussness". Not to suggest the scriptures you listed are comprehensive, but as I go through them might I suggest a few that you read through and respond back with your thoughts?

Romans 1:17
For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed - a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
what do you want me to comment about? I have already said that it is Christ's righteousness imputed to us, but that we are responsible for living that out through effort and yielding...this passage only confirms that what I said is in fact scriptural especially when we add it to the other passages I presented to you.
John 16:8-10
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
again, more that show what I am saying to you....
And Hebrews 5:13
Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.
yep, we grow in our relationship with Christ, and how do we grow? Do we grow by sitting around on our hands doing nothing, or do we grow by putting our hand to the plow and moving forward? We grow by applying ourselves to the lessons that we have been taught...you know, our effort, God's power, just like I have been telling you.....

as to works righteousness, many people get it stuck in their heads that since we are told in scripture to do something active with our faith that it means that the teaching is that we can earn our righteousness....that is about as far from what is being said and taught as one can get. Christ's righteousness is imputed to us by faith, but that does not mean that we are to sit around the rest of our lives doing absolutely nothing because "Christ did it all" in fact, look at this passage....Ephesians 2:10 (HCSB) For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.

God's very purpose in creating us in Christ Jesus (aka slavation) was that we would work without the bounds of our salvation, works that He considers good, works that He prepared for us in advance to do to further the Kingdom. We cannot separate works from our walk with God simply by creating a strawman argument about works righteousness (or working our way to salvation) instead, we must accept the entire teaching of scripture. Even Paul says, you will know my faith by my works....iow's works follow my faith, it is a demonstration of the faith I have, they work hand in hand together not opposed to one another.

Now, you still have not shown your claim that being without sin and being righteous are two totally different things, so how about we get back to you evidencing that claim?
 
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kristina411

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I just want to point out I never saw the need for works as much as salvation ever before. More important is of course salvation but how we accept that salvation is determined by works. I never lived by works or even had a thought of ever being able to or ever wanting to fully. Gods love is not a direct result of our works no. But because of Gods love I finally desire works. I finally have that thirst for righteousness that Jesus talks about in the beatitides I think it was.
^this is mostly just my personal experience. The other comments were what I read in scripture and my idea of what they mean.
 
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Andry

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Edited for brevity, I'm not suggesting we sit around and do nothing - that'd be dumb. Your listed verses can be summed up, at least for me, as our living sacrifice - Roman 12.

Now, you still have not shown your claim that being without sin and being righteous are two totally different things, so how about we get back to you evidencing that claim?

Because of Jesus, can sin condemn us any longer? Can our not-sinning save us?

I'll go back to John 16:8-10
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

What is the sin that he convicts us of? The sin of unbelief. That's it.

And yet he has also declared us righteous. After having looked closely at our lives, what we've done or haven't done, our dirty little secrets, what we've given or haven't given, etc - that the gavel in the court of heaven has convicted us righteous (and bearing in mind I'm not talking about self-righteousness).

Where does sin have any bearing on that righteousness?

Where sin does have significant impact in our lives is as Paul stated several times to the Corinthians, chapters 6, 10.

Paraphrased "All things are lawful to me, but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others."

IOW, while I may have the right - no longer being under the law - to do anything and everything, not anything or everything will be constructive to me, or productive to me, or beneficial to me, as living sacrifices. (In fact, not everything is "consequencelessness" just because we are now no longer under the law, and some will be, obviously, destructive and detrimental) And I won't be mastered or be in bondage to anything. Or to put it in another way, doing good works will be beneficial and constructive to my life and others. They are my living sacrifices. And while they might be demonstrative of our righteousness and salvation, they are not what causes us to become or attain righteousness.
 
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razzelflabben

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I just want to point out I never saw the need for works as much as salvation ever before. More important is of course salvation but how we accept that salvation is determined by works. I never lived by works or even had a thought of ever being able to or ever wanting to fully. Gods love is not a direct result of our works no. But because of Gods love I finally desire works. I finally have that thirst for righteousness that Jesus talks about in the beatitides I think it was.
^this is mostly just my personal experience. The other comments were what I read in scripture and my idea of what they mean.
exactly when we come to the point of salvation, we discover a desire to do the good works that are associated with righteousness and righteous living in accordance with the good works, aka righteous acts, aka sinless acts He created us to do. Amen
 
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razzelflabben

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Edited for brevity, I'm not suggesting we sit around and do nothing - that'd be dumb. Your listed verses can be summed up, at least for me, as our living sacrifice - Roman 12.



Because of Jesus, can sin condemn us any longer? Can our not-sinning save us?
what are you talking about? Seriously! What are you talking about? We have already established that our works are not what saves us and yet we are to work at our salvation, as in the ongoing work of the HS within us. Now, you somehow want us to go back to the moment of salvation and redefine what we already established? I simply don't get what you are trying to make a case for. You claimed that being without sin and being righteous are not the same thing, I asked you how they differ, what the difference is, etc. and you try to undo what we already established and go back to the point of salvation. Please, I beg of you, for the effort I am putting into trying to be considerate and understanding you...what, in simple terms are you trying to get at? Please I beg of you, before this goes down some road it shouldn't, explain how your questions even reflect what we have already discussed and seen in scripture much less how it answers the question of how sinlessness and righteousness are different?
I'll go back to John 16:8-10
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

What is the sin that he convicts us of? The sin of unbelief. That's it.
so you are seriously trying to make a case for the only sin that exists in this world is the sin of disbelief? Seriously? I John 2:16 among others come to mind...passages that would disagree with the premise you seem to be presenting now.
And yet he has also declared us righteous. After having looked closely at our lives, what we've done or haven't done, our dirty little secrets, what we've given or haven't given, etc - that the gavel in the court of heaven has convicted us righteous (and bearing in mind I'm not talking about self-righteousness).
got to run, so I'm not posting passages, but just wanted to point out that we have been talking about Christ's righteousness imputed to us at salvation, iow's not our own righteous acts. that does not mean we don't put forth some effort in our process of growing in Christ, but that it isn't about our "righteousness" cause without Christ we have none. Don't know how many times we can say that and you still don't see it, but okay, keep going, still trying to figure out what you see is the difference between being without sin and being righteous...I'm gonna assume pretty soon that if you don't explain what you mean that you don't really have an explanation.
Where does sin have any bearing on that righteousness?
:confused: if we are in sin, we are unrighteous. Sin means to miss the mark, the mark is the law....righteousness means to do what is right, that is right according to the law. Therefore, to be righteous means to be without sin.
Where sin does have significant impact in our lives is as Paul stated several times to the Corinthians, chapters 6, 10.

Paraphrased "All things are lawful to me, but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others."
oh...so you are one that thinks the law was done away with rather than that the law was fulfilled? Sorry, that doesn't fly, when I get back if you want I will pull out a bunch of passages, but the short version goes like this....the OT law was replaced by the NT law of Love, a "Love that sums up all the law and prophets"
IOW, while I may have the right - no longer being under the law - to do anything and everything, not anything or everything will be constructive to me, or productive to me, or beneficial to me, as living sacrifices. (In fact, not everything is "consequencelessness" just because we are now no longer under the law, and some will be, obviously, destructive and detrimental) And I won't be mastered or be in bondage to anything. Or to put it in another way, doing good works will be beneficial and constructive to my life and others. They are my living sacrifices. And while they might be demonstrative of our righteousness and salvation, they are not what causes us to become or attain righteousness.
Now, you are changing the whole thing to how to become righteous...no offense intended but it is very difficult to follow you when you keep changing the question. We are righteous because God imputes Christ's righteousness on our account. An account that is to remain righteous, as in I am to do my part to keep that account clear of sin.

It really is a beautifully simple thing, but somehow you seem to be missing it.

None the less, the question I asked is your evidence and intended meaning between how sinlessness and righteousness differ....you still have not provided that for me. Does this mean that you can't or that you don't want to?
 
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Andry

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It really is a beautifully simple thing, but somehow you seem to be missing it.
Ditto.

The Holy Spirit has declared you righteous but you seem to be appealing it.

Don't put things I never said. The law was fulfilled, in Christ.

And you misquoted Scripture, "He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me..." Is that the only sin? Of course not. But what is the sin that he has convicted the world of? The sin of unbelief.

All I can say now is that there needs to be an acquaitance about the teachings of righteousness, and the understanding of the new covenant (which isn't, by the way, simply the old covenant which Jesus added in).

And FYI, I'm not encouraging "greasy grace" or supporting leading a sinful life. On the contrary.
 
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kristina411

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Edited for brevity, I'm not suggesting we sit around and do nothing - that'd be dumb. Your listed verses can be summed up, at least for me, as our living sacrifice - Roman 12. .

My take on this is that we are to discredit, or devalue, the numerous verses I have provided in exchange for one chapter in Romans that is not spoken by Jesus and sums up how a Christian should live? I'm confused here. This verse explains the general conduct expected of a Christian, which follows the same outline as righteousness save the faith. I'm just confused at how Romans 12 should change things? I am not trying to be snarky but to understand.


Because of Jesus, can sin condemn us any longer? Can our not-sinning save us?
Yes, I believe it can, if we continue to live in sin. I can become saved, repent and a couple years later kill someone. By your reasoning (honestly I'm trying to understand), does that mean that I am saved still, despite willingly committing a murder after my salvation?
I'll go back to John 16:8-10
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

What is the sin that he convicts us of? The sin of unbelief. That's it.
Jesus was speaking of the holy ghost here. By sin, I take it he meant sin. By righteousness I take it he mean righteousness. By judgement I take it he meant judgement. Righteousness as in salvation AND lawful righteousness.
And yet he has also declared us righteous. After having looked closely at our lives, what we've done or haven't done, our dirty little secrets, what we've given or haven't given, etc - that the gavel in the court of heaven has convicted us righteous (and bearing in mind I'm not talking about self-righteousness).

Where does sin have any bearing on that righteousness?

Where sin does have significant impact in our lives is as Paul stated several times to the Corinthians, chapters 6, 10.

Paraphrased "All things are lawful to me, but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others."

IOW, while I may have the right - no longer being under the law - to do anything and everything, not anything or everything will be constructive to me, or productive to me, or beneficial to me, as living sacrifices. (In fact, not everything is "consequencelessness" just because we are now no longer under the law, and some will be, obviously, destructive and detrimental) And I won't be mastered or be in bondage to anything. Or to put it in another way, doing good works will be beneficial and constructive to my life and others. They are my living sacrifices. And while they might be demonstrative of our righteousness and salvation, they are not what causes us to become or attain righteousness.

I have to pick my child up from school so I dont have time to continue on the rest. I apologize if I have come off as snarky. I am trying to understand while trying to explain and sometimes that can be tricky.

ETA if in Matt 5:20(I think it is) Jesus says we are to be more righteous than the Pharisees, and the Pharisees by law were righteous. Doesnt that mean our righteousness needs to exceed, not replace theirs? Exceed by also becoming righteous through faith and not works alone?
That is the logic behind my idea, and the scriptures I have provided are my backup
 
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Andry

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I have to pick my child up from school so I dont have time to continue on the rest. I apologize if I have come off as snarky. I am trying to understand while trying to explain and sometimes that can be tricky.
You're not snarky at all. (again edited for brevity)

I haven't yet responded to your previous post (the one with the Scriptures), because like you, I'm juggling "real life" here also. :D

But for now suffice to say - as I haven't responded yet - that there is not discreditation or devaluing of the scriptures you posted. I dare say, there's a misunderstanding of them. A few things perhaps you may want to consider:

Most of the current understanding of the evangelical church today - and I apologize if you are not - and I'll presume you are a part of, even though "non-denominational", has been brought up with a Greek or western mindset heavily influenced by Augustine. Therefore, what you think and believe some verses say, isn't what it meant to the people Jesus was speaking to at the time - who were Jews/Hebrews, which oftentimes have a completely different set of definitions to which most of us aren't aware of.

That said, as an example, per your scripture of the man who asked about attaining eternal life - to him, his understanding and definition of "eternal" is quite different from ours. Therefore I suggest you take it in that context.

Further, your multiple examples about the kingdom of heaven (or the kingdom of God) needs to be looked at from the lens of the Jewish or Hebrew mind. Those Scriptures don't say what most of us believe they say.
 
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Andry

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ETA if in Matt 5:20(I think it is) Jesus says we are to be more righteous than the Pharisees, and the Pharisees by law were righteous, does that not mean our righteousness needs to exceed, not replace theirs? Exceed by also becoming righteous through faith and not works alone?
That is the logic behind my idea, and the scriptures I have provided are my backup
Oops, looks like I missed this part.

What was the righteousness of the Pharisees? I dare say it was self-righteousness, so yes, of course, your righteousness needs to exceed that of the Pharisees.

If you looked at the life of Jesus, he had more of an issue (and far less gracious) with self-righteousness than he did with unrighteousness. IOW, he was often abrupt, and to the point, and at times even mean and offensive, to the Pharisees and the Saducees; yet to the unrighteous - the marginalized, the poor, the widowed, the adulterer, the tax collector - he embraced them, walked with them, and gave grace to them.
 
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kristina411

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Oops, looks like I missed this part.

What was the righteousness of the Pharisees? I dare say it was self-righteousness, so yes, of course, your righteousness needs to exceed that of the Pharisees.

If you looked at the life of Jesus, he had more of an issue (and far less gracious) with self-righteousness than he did with unrighteousness. IOW, he was often abrupt, and to the point, and at times even mean and offensive, to the Pharisees and the Saducees; yet to the unrighteous - the marginalized, the poor, the widowed, the adulterer, the tax collector - he embraced them, walked with them, and gave grace to them.

The common misconception is that in order to be righteous one must be self righteous.
The Pharisees were, by law considered righteous. They followed every law handed down by Moses. But they did this for profit, for politics, they did this and judged others. They did the works without the heart. When Jesus came to fulfil the law-to my understanding- it was not to abolish the law but to set the record straight. That the law starts in your heart, as he preached on the mount I believe it was.
To become more righteous than the Pharisees we do not replace their righteousness but we add to the righteousness of the law, righteousness of the heart which only comes from Jesus and his truth of the law- and the salvation that comes from Christ.

There was a new covenant, that he was the sacrifice so we are no longer bound to the laws of forgiveness, but we are bound to the laws for righteousness. The laws that were not all done away with by Jesus.
He actually spent a great deal of time preaching against sin, more than salvation if I'm not mistaken. I may be but this is my take thus far.
Salvation is crucial and to say works are important does not take away from salvation by any means, only works to enhance it~and by works faith was made perfect~
Sorry if its jumbled and confusing... I'm sitting in line at the school in my car lol
 
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razzelflabben

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Ditto.

The Holy Spirit has declared you righteous but you seem to be appealing it.
not if you are actually listening to what I am saying.
Don't put things I never said. The law was fulfilled, in Christ.
:confused: Love also fulfills the law it is why all the law and prophets are summed up in the law of Love.
And you misquoted Scripture, "He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me..." Is that the only sin? Of course not. But what is the sin that he has convicted the world of? The sin of unbelief.
I didn't quote that scripture at all, so I couldn't have misquoted it...you must be confusing me with someone else, so best we be done since nothing here resembles you talking to me.
All I can say now is that there needs to be an acquaitance about the teachings of righteousness, and the understanding of the new covenant (which isn't, by the way, simply the old covenant which Jesus added in).

And FYI, I'm not encouraging "greasy grace" or supporting leading a sinful life. On the contrary.
I have absolutely no idea what you think you are saying or who you think you are talking to. wisdom tells me that when someone starts responding in a manner in which it neither makes sense and/or doesn't reflect what I have said, it is best to just start ignoring that posters responses. Have a wonderful evening.
 
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