• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.

Matthew 24: FULFILLED

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by GW, May 26, 2002.

  1. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    COMMENTARY ON MATTHEW 24

    Matt 24:1-3 -- The Temple, God's dwelling place among mankind for 1500 years, is going to be destroyed. The Age of the Law of Moses will soon end. In 70 AD the Roman armies literally took apart the once-holy Temple stone by stone to get at the gold that had melted down between the cracks from the heat of the fires, and to remove the Jewish headquarters. Temple vessels taken to Rome by Titus (Josephus, Wars, 7:5:5-7). The Jews had at first set fire to the Holy Temple (Josephus, Wars, 6:2:9; 6:3:5; 6:4:5; 6:6:2).

    24:4 -- Apostles ask, WHEN WILL THESE THINGS BE? What sign signifies thy coming at end of the Mosaic age? (for this must be discerned by signs)

    24:4-5 -- False messianic movements. Dositheus the Samaritan, Simon Magus deified in Rome, Theudas (Acts 5:36-37), Manahem and, under the government of Felix, "deceivers rose up daily in Judea, and persuaded the people to follow them into the wilderness, assuring them that they should there behold conspicuous signs and wonders performed by the ALMIGHTY" (Josephus). Felix, from time to time, apprehended many and put them to death. About this period (A.D. 55) arose another Felix, the celebrated Egyptian impostor, who collected thirty-thousand followers, and persuaded them to accompany him to the Mount of Olives, telling, them that from thence they should see the walls of Jerusalem fall down at his command as a prelude to the capture of the Roman garrison, and to their obtaining the sovereignty of the city. Partial list: Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BCE); Simon of Peraea (4 BCE); Athronges, the shepherd (4 BCE); Judas, the Galilean (6 CE); The Samaritan prophet (36 CE); King Herod Agrippa (44 CE); Theudas (? CE); The Egyptian prophet (52-58 CE); Menahem, the son of Judas the Galilean (66 CE); John of Gischala (67-70 CE); Vespasian (67 CE); Simon bar Giora (69-70 CE)

    Matt 24:6-7 -- Claudius' Roman war with Britain/East Anglia, at least three Jewish insurrections against Rome prior to the 60s AD -- one was violently put down by Cuspius Fadus. The Jewish/Alexandrian revolt upon Caligula's death, Claudius' martial law declared in Palestine after the jewish insurrection at the death of Agrippa I. The Germanic tribes in present-day Belgium and Germany made perpetual trouble for the legions throughout the reign. A smouldering Balkan war was in continuous progress. All this, of course only escalated, and Rome in 68-70 began its own Civil Wars that nearly toppled the empire. As Tacitus wrote, " Four princes [Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Domitian] killed by the sword; three civil wars, several foreign wars; and mostly raging at the same time. Favorable events in the East [the subjection of the Jews], unfortunate ones in the West. Illyria disturbed, Gaul uneasy; Britain conquered and soon relinquished; the nations of Sarmatia and Suevia rising against us; the Parthians excited by the deception of a pseudo-Nero." Acts 11:28 records the worldwide famine. Josephus reports the famine in Jerusalem in the 60s AD which killed hundreds of thousands during the Jewish War (AD 66-70). Accounts of infanticide and cannibalism as foretold in Deuteronomy 28:53,57 -- women cooked and ate their babies (Josephus; Wars 6:3:3-4; Wars 5:1:4). Read more on wars of this time and false prophets -- (Josephus: Antiq. 20:5:1-4; 20:8:5-10; Wars 2:10:1; 2:13:4-7; 6:5:2)

    24:9-10 -- persecution of the early church by the Jews and later by Nero as he blames the Christian sect for the burning of Rome. This went on the entire AD 30-66 by the Jews, and Nero's persecution was 3.5 years from 64-68AD. Matthew 24:9-13 is exactly parallel to Matthew 10:16-23 which all scholars assign to a 1st century fulfillment. Also the Jewish Civil War occurred in 66-69AD (Josephus; Wars, 2:17:1-10; 2:18:1-11; 4:6:2-3; 5:1:2-5; 5:6:1; 5:13:6; 6:2:1)

    24:11 -- more false prophets. these are mentioned by Josephus as being related to the messianic movment of the seditious Zealots that promised the redemption at the Temple for the rebels, yet the Romans brought total destruction. Believers trapped in the city of Jerusalem endure to the end and are spared.

    24:14 -- Gospel to the "oikoumene" -- Roman Empire. Fulfilled rapidly in the apostles' generation -- Col 1:23, Col 1:5-6, Romans 10:14-18, Romans 16:26, 1 Tim 3:16. Early Church Fathers all viewed this passage as fulfilled (See Clement of Rome, Chrysostom, Eusebius) -- gospel went even to Spain and Gaul. The immediate rapid spread of the Christian faith throughout the entire empire was a sign. The "whole world" spoken of in the Bible pertained to the extent of the Roman Empire, and the Bible is consistent on this (compare the "whole world" of Matt 24:14 with the "whole world" of Luke 2:1, Acts 11:28, Acts 2:5, Romans 1:8 and and 2 Chronicles 36:23). The scriptures even used a special greek word in Matt 24:14, OIKOUMENE (strong's #3625), which means the Roman Empire -- the "whole world" (OIKOUMENE) in the scriptures was contextually centered in the area of the Ancient Roman Empire (Luke 2:1). The "whole world" in the scriptures is mapped out by a careful reading of these passages.

    24:15-20 -- This famous historic account is recorded in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History , iii.v. -- the Judean remnant saw armies of Cestius Gallus in 66AD (and Vespasian's later) surrounding Jerusalem (compare to Luke 21:20-24). At the same time, The Temple was captured by the Jewish Zealots (2 Thess 2:4-7) that turned the temple into a camp, defiled it with blood, and made evil of their own high priest. During this time the daily sacrifices to Rome were ended, which was a Declaration of War against the Empire. These events signalled the faithful remnant to flee according to our Lord's commands to them. Just after they escaped the city, the Zealots seized the Temple and the city, guarded the gates, and prevented all escape. Eusebius records, "But the members of the Church in Jerusalem, having been commanded before the war in accordance with a certain oracle given by revelation to the men of repute there, to depart from Jerusalem, and to inhabit a certain city of Peraea called Pella, all the believers in Christ in Jerusalem went thither, and when now the saints had abandoned both the royal metropolis itself and the whole land of Judaea, the vengeance of God finally overtook the lawless persecutors of Christ and His apostles." At the end the Romans sacrificed to their standards at the Temple (Josephus, Wars, 4:5:1; 5:1:2,3,5).

    Matt. 24: 21-24 -- The Great Tribulation (also Luke 21:20-24). Read Josephus, Wars of the Jews -- entire. The Roman Jewish war is the documented history of the great tribulation. Josephus declares the war with the Romans was "the greatest of all ever heard of" (as Christ said in Matthew 24:21). "Whereas the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that were ever heard of" -- Josephus -- Preface to Wars of the Jews, Section 1 (see also: Wars, 5:10:5). Jesus calls this time the "Days of Vengeance" (Luke 21:20-22; Isaiah 61:2; Matt 23:31-38; Luke 19:40-44; Matt 21:40-22:7), and "wrath and distress to come upon this people" (Luke 21:23 -- see also Josephus, Wars, 2:10:1; 2:22;1; 6:3:3-4; 6:9:2-4; 7:1:1). Lakes of blood and fires (Josephus, Wars, 2:18: 4:5:1; 5:1:2-5; :6:4:6; 6:5:1,2; 6:8:5). Jerusalem divided into three (Rev 16:19 -- see also Wars, 5:1:1,4). Genealogical records destroyed (Josephus, Wars, 6:6:3; 6:9:1). God took the Kingdom away from them (Matt 21:40-45; see also Josephus, Wars, 6:8:4:; 6:9:1,4). Jerusalem called "That Great City" and "Sodom" (Rev 11:8; Rev 18:21-24; -- see also Josephus, Wars, 5:10:5; 5:13:6; 7:8:7). Jews sold into slavery (Luke 21:24 -- see also Josephus, Wars, preface section 11; Wars 6:8:2; 6:9:2-4). City of Jerusalem is leveled (Matt 24:2 and Luke 19:40-44 -- see also Josephus, Wars, 7:1:1; 7:8:7). Jesus warns his generation: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of gehenna? Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate (Matt 23:33-38).

    Matt 24:25 -- Jesus here tells the apostles that these dire events will be experienced by them (also Matt 24:33-34). They will be the generation to see these things that Jesus is describing (and not some distant future generation). Compare Matt 24:25 with similar statments in John 14:28, John 13:19 and John 16:4 that all signal events in the apostles' own near future. Christ always told his apostles things they would need to know beforehand, that it would be to their benefit when the things came to pass before their eyes.

    Matt 24:26-28 -- don't fall for the false messianic claims. The true desolation is like lightning over the whole land and, where the carcasses are strewn, there too will be the Roman Eagles (i.e, the infamous Eagle Ensigns of the Roman armies that were planted all over Jerusalem during the Roman Jewish war). The Eagle Ensigns served as a symbol of the Jews' defeat at the hand of their enemies. Most commentators believe this war and passage also was the fulfillment of Moses' predictions in Deuteronomy 28:49 and following verses. All this literally came to pass in 66-70AD. See also: (Josephus, Wars, 4:5:1; 5:1:2,3,5)

    Matt 24:29-31 -- Christ speaks of the end signs. This passage is using the apocalyptic language of the great prophets Isaiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, David etc in exactly the same way they used it for God's judgments against nations and individuals in their own times. Compare with God's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), OR God's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5), OR God's coming to Egypt in 572BC (Ez 32:7-11) OR God's coming to Nineveh in 612BC (Nahum 1). Jesus Christ is now also seen as coming in that same glory of the Father (cf. Matt 16:27; John 17:5). Jesus came to 1st century Israel and demolished it in the same glory of the Father's cloud-comings in the O.T. Age (Isaiah 19:1-2). This passage speaks of Christ's full equality and oneness with Jehovah. The Parousia of Christ is signified by the fall of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple. Many cosmic signs were also witnessed in that period. The angels and glorious light of Christ are witnessed at the temple and around the cities of Jerusalem (Jude 14; Rev 1:7 -- See also Josephus; Wars 6:5:3; 2:22:1-2; 4:4:5; 6:5:2-3 -- also Tacitus and Midrash). The unfaithful jews were gathered from all over the world at Passover Feast in 66AD and they sealed in by the Roman armies. They were now in the furnace of the City and were destroyed (see: Matt 13:40-43, Luke 19:43-44, Matt 23:33-38, Luke 23:28-31). Rabbis call 70AD the "end of biblical judaism." The Church is also gathered and spared God's desolations and wrath. The Church is at this time after the death of the apostles built, established, never to be destroyed. The Church becomes the eternal Temple and Priesthood of God (2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:9). Christianity emerges distinct from Judaism and becomes the universal and one true faith of God. Christ's followers destined to occupy all nations, teaching them to obey Jesus. The teachings of Christ and the apostles are fully and historically vindicated in this historic destruction of Jerusalem.

    Matt 24:32-33 -- parable of all the trees (Luke 21:29-31). When trees shoot forth leaves it signals that summer is now near at hand. "So likewise YOU too [the apostles], when YOU shall see all these things know that it is near, even at the door" (see also James 5:8-9; Rev 3:20). In Luke's account Jesus promises the apostles: "So also you, when you see these things come to pass know that the kingdom of God is near at hand" (Lk 21:31).


    MATT 24:34 -- VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    Note that in no history do we find that the stars fell from heaven and the sign of the Son of man appeared in heaven, at which all the tribes of the earth mourned; nor does any history describe how all the tribes of the earth saw when the Son of man came in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and sent his angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they gathered together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Matthew 24:29-31). None of this has been fulfilled.

    Christ's 2nd coming will be immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), will be seen by every eye (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30), will bring the resurrection and rapture of the entire church (1 Corinthians 15:23, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), and will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

    At the 2nd coming, all those who are still alive and in Christ will be changed in the twinkling of an eye into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:23, 51-53). This did not happen to any of the apostles.

    In the parable of the fig tree, I believe Jesus was saying that the generation that saw the re-establishment of the nation of physical Israel (the rebudding of the fig tree) would not "pass" until they saw the tribulation and 2nd coming (Matthew 24:32-34). The nation of physical Israel was re-established in 1948, and I believe that generation won't "pass" (Matthew 24:24) until 70 years later, for Psalm 90:10 refers to people dying after 70 years.
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +3,027
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Postrib,
    Daniel 8:5-10
    5 And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground; and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. 6 Then he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing beside the river, and ran at him with furious power. 7 And I saw him confronting the ram; he was moved with rage against him, attacked the ram, and broke his two horns. There was no power in the ram to withstand him, but he cast him down to the ground and trampled him; and there was no one that could deliver the ram from his hand. 8 Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them.


    This scripture was fulfilled in Antiochus.

    Can you provide historical record of Antiochus grabbing stars out of space and throwing them on the earth and trampling them?

    and BTW, notice it is not the "sign" that is "in heaven" but the "son of Man that is "in heaven".
     
  4. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Ugh. Compare with God's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), OR God's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5), OR God's coming to Egypt in 572BC (Ez 32:7-11) OR God's coming to Nineveh in 612BC (Nahum 1). So Matthew 24:29 was ALSO fulfilled at the fall of the Temple and Jerusalem in exactly the same way as the many times before. Surely you don't expect A GREAT MANY stars like our sun to literally hit our earth as we see in Revelation 6:13???



    Means: the Jewish tribes of the land -- the land of Israel. The mention of this in both Rev 1:7 and Matthew 24:30 is borrowed from Zechariah 12:10-14, a passage clearly speaking of the tribes of Israel in Jerusalem! Was fulfilled when millions died at Jerusalem in 66-70AD.


    Jesus came "in the glory of the Father." Thus, the cloud-coming happened exactly the way it had many times before when Yahweh came with clouds in his glory (Isaiah 19:1-2; 2 Sam 22:10-14; Ps. 97:2-5; 104:3; Dan. 7:13; Nahum 1:3; Zeph. 1:15 Joel 2:2). Additionally, St. John gives us the actual depiction of Christ's coming with clouds in REVELATION 14:14-20. By reading the Rev 14:14-20 passage we see this is SPIRITUAL in nature and seen in the invisible realm.



    St. John gives us the actual depiction of Christ's coming with clouds as foretold in Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7. We find this clearly depicted in REVELATION 14:14-20. There can be no doubt from the context of Rev 14:14-20 that this is spiritual in nature and seen in the invisible realm.

    Jesus plainly promised his apostles: "Yet a little while, and this world seeth me no more!"(John 14:19). How long is NO MORE?

    Finally, the nature of Christ's Parousia is confirmed by a comparison of Matt. 16:27-28 and Lk. 17:21. In Matthew 16:27-28, Jesus taught openly that His Coming was going to be "in His Kingdom." In Lk. 17:21, He taught that the coming of His Kingdom was going to be unobservable. If the coming of the Kingdom was going to be unobservable, then it follows that the Coming of the King in that Kingdom was also going to be unobservable.



    The dead O.T. saints are no longer in Hades and Hades no longer exists. Therefore the resurrection of the dead occurred.


    "The Antichrist" is not found in 2 Thess 2.


    You have just equated the "re-establishment of the nation of physical Israel" with the "budding of the fig tree." That is allegorical, to say the least, and is not taught in scripture. Not only, but your allegorical interpretation is impossible. Luke's version would then require ALL ANCIENT NATIONS TO BE RE-ESTABLISHED, for Christ says in Luke 21:29: "behold the fig tree, AND ALL THE TREES. WHEN THEY NOW SHOOT FORTH YOU KNOW..."

    Therefore if the "budding of the fig tree" equals the "re-establishment of the nation of physical Israel," then "all the trees" would then mean all ancient nations being re-established -- from the Chaldeans to the Incas, to all others.

    GW
     
  5. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

    +603
    Christian
    Married
    If Hades no longer exists, where do the unsaved go when they die?
     
  6. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    Hades is not Hell.

    -Chris
     
  7. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

    +603
    Christian
    Married
    I want to know, according to preterist doctrine, where do unsaved people go when they die?? Hell or where?
     
  8. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

    428
    +1
    Christian
    A star is a celestial gas body with immense gravity which generates an incredible amount of energy, energy created by nuclear reactions. Not only are stars extremely hot, but they are immensely larger than planet earth...thus stars cannot possibly fall TO earth...rather the earth would fall into a star and instantly burn...there are no STARS falling to earth...

    Matthew 24 says the following:

    "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn..."

    Now, you might be able to do this, but it would be rather hard for the TRIBES OF THE EARTH to mourn AFTER the earth melts into a star...not only that, but there would be no sky left for the sign of the Son of Man to show into.
     
  9. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Most preterists believe in Heaven and Hell -- that's the final eschatological state of the afterworld.

    But what most futurists don't realize is that such was not the case back in the 1st century and prior. Prior to that time NO man had ascended into God's Heaven (John 3:13). No one was permitted to be in God's presence until the 1st century, and the O.T. dead remained in the Hadean prison until the Temple fell -- that is when the dead were raised. The Law Age came to its final end and Hades was done away at that time (1 Cor 15:55-56; Rev 20:12-15).

    There is no more Purgatory ("hades" in greek, "sheol" in hebrew). There is only the final eschatological state for the dead -- Heaven and Hell.
     
  10. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    Parousia70:
    In what way?

    I believe it says both the sign and the Son appear to all people: "then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30); "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7).

    GW:
    I believe Isaiah 13 has not been fulfilled yet, and will be fulfilled when Jesus returns with his heavenly army (Isaiah 13:5, Revelation 19:14) to destroy Babylon (Revelation 18:21).

    I believe Isaiah 34 has not been fulfilled yet, and will be fulfilled when Jesus destroys the armies of all nations (Isaiah 34:2) at Armageddon (Revelation 19:19-21).

    Can you cite your historical sources for Ezekiel 32:11, so we can see what they say?

    When was Nahum 1:5 fulfilled?

    We know that literal stars are much too big to fall to earth, in fact, each one is millions of times larger than the earth, so the stars that will fall to earth must be meteorites. While there will be a meteorite shower after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29), so also there are meteoritic events during the tribulation, such as the 2nd and 3rd trumpets (Revelation 8:8-10). So the 6th seal meteoritic event may not be the same as the one after the tribulation.

    When was this verse fulfilled?

    When were Isaiah 19:2, Isaiah 19:5, and Isaiah 19:18-25 fulfilled?

    I believe 2 Samuel 22 and Psalm 97 will be fulfilled by Christ at the 2nd coming and during the millenium.

    God may have always done this, but as of yet no one has seen him in the clouds, as they will at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7).

    Who and where is the Ancient of days?

    When was Nahum 1:5 fulfilled?

    When was this fulfilled?

    I think that Revelation 14:14-16 may not be a rapture/resurrection: it could possibly be Jesus harvesting into heaven the souls of those Christians dying under the Antichrist for not taking the mark:

    "They have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped" (Revelation 14:11-16).

    I think Revelation 14:14-16 may not show a coming of Jesus from heaven to earth; he could be seated on one of the clouds of the 3rd heaven (Daniel 7:13 refers to the clouds of the heaven where the Ancient of days is) and perform his spiritual work from the 3rd heaven, just as he works his spiritual works in us currently while he is still physically in heaven.

    When was Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7 seen by every eye of every tribe and kindred on earth, causing them great grief?

    Until the 2nd coming (Matthew 23:39, Zechariah 12:10).

    Matthew 16:28 was fulfilled in Matthew 17:1-2, just as Mark 9:1 was fulfilled in Mark 9:2.

    In Luke 17:21, Jesus was replying to the Pharisees, who expected Christ to conquer the world physically at his 1st coming. He was trying to get them to realize that they had to be conquered on the inside first -- as he had told them previously: all they cared about was externals (Luke 11:39).

    Notice that right after Luke 17:20-21, Jesus goes on to explain to his disciples that he had to die first, but that after that he would be revealed to destroy all his enemies (Luke 17:22-30). This is confirmed in other passages, which also foretell the day when the kingdom would come with observation (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30).

    I believe "the 1st resurrection" (Revelation 20:6), that is, the resurrection and changing of all "they that are Christ's" (1 Corinthians 15:23) into their immortal bodies, will occur at a single point in time, at the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), at the 2nd coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:23, Revelation 19:11-20:6), and it will include those "beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands" (Revelation 20:4), which refers back to the events of Revelation 13.

    Because neither Revelation 13 nor Revelation 19, that is, neither the tribulation nor the 2nd coming, have happened yet, neither can the resurrection have happened yet.

    At the same time that the resurrection happens, all those who are still alive and in Christ will be changed in the twinkling of an eye into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-53). This didn't happen to the apostles.

    Who does Paul refer to in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 (sits in the temple and proclaims himself God) and 2 Thessalonians 2:8 (destroyed by Jesus' coming), if not the Antichrist?

    Since the 2nd World War there has been a tremendous proliferation in the number of nations re-established as independent entities.

    "All the trees" doesn't have to refer to all ancient nations, but those nations for which a people which had once had a nation still existed (as in the case of the Jews) but without an independent nation.

    No man has ascended into heaven bodily by his own power, as Christ did, but it expressly says Elijah did ascend bodily into heaven and he was seen no more (2 Kings 2:11-12), and where would God have taken his beloved Enoch? (Genesis 5:24)
     
  11. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    +231
    Atheist
    Married
    US-Others
    Postrib, do you ever believe that an OT prophecy was fulfilled during the OT times, or do you believe that they only ever refer to some future time at the end of the world? When Isaiah prophecied the "burden" against Babylon, Moab, Damascus, and Egypt, is it your position that Isaiah wasn't talking about those ancient countries at all, but was only ever using those names as codes to describe end of the world events?

    You say that Isaiah 13:5 hasn't happened, and yet verse 17 describes exactly who God would use to bring down Babylon: the Medes. Do you believe this verse deals with an OT judgment or do you also reserve this passage for the end of the world? I'm just trying to understand the hermenuetical basis of your interpretation, because at this point I am at a loss to get it.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  12. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

    454
    +1
    Nope; Matthew 24 has not been fufilled;

    note verse 35:

    Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words will not pass away.

    And further;

    But of that day and hour, knoweth no man, no not the angels of heaven, but my father only,
    But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the son of man be,
    For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
    And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the son of man be.

    Currently the earth is populated in billions; so we are still here. But who knows, Jesus could return at any moment. If anyone is interested, check out the prophecy forum and see whats happening there.

    Have a nice day,
    Wildfire
     
  13. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    +231
    Atheist
    Married
    US-Others
    In the days of Noah, the physical earth was not destroyed...people were destroyed, taken away in judgment. And so shall the coming of the son of man be... :)

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  14. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +3,027
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Matthew 24 is Jesus answer to the apostles' question about the temples destruction.

    The "heaven and earth" of old covenant Judiasm that God planted after he divided the sea and brought the hebrew people out of Egypt (Isaiah 51:16), passed away with the Temples destruction in 70, Just as Jesus promised, on time, within that "generation", before some of the apostles had died.

    Why is it so difficult to take Jesus at his word about these things?
     
  15. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    G'day P70 :)

    Verse 13 of that passage in Isaiah 51 in Youngs literal translation also brings out the "present continuous tense" of what God was doing in that day of Israel's ['heaven and earth'] formation:

    Isaiah 51:13 And thou dost forget Jehovah thy maker, Who is stretching out the heavens, and founding earth, And thou dost fear continually all the day, Because of the fury of the oppressor, As he hath prepared to destroy. And where [is] the fury of the oppressor?

    davo
     
  16. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

    454
    +1
    well, lets examine the beginning of Matthew 24:

    And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


    the end of the world.

    Not the end of this immediate time, or seventy years from now, but the destruction of all mankind from the earth.

    *The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the lord; the mighty men shall cry there bitterly.
    *That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness.

    *The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it, and it shall fall and not rise again.

    *But the day of the Lord will come as a theif in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    It is evident that has not yet happened; one thousand nine hundred and thirty years later (since 70AD) we are still here. The prophecy was not fufilled less than one hundred years after Jesus was killed, take notice:

    There has been an <increase> in famines, earthquakes, wars and pestilences.
    Notice how the end is described by Jesus Christ himself; as a woman who is travail with child. What happens as she comes closer to her delivery? Her birthing pangs increase and come closer together. That is what is happening with this world and all of the things above mentioned; and the delivery will be the return of the son of God, Jesus Christ.

    Fill your lamps with oil. Watch. Pray. It is what we are told to do. Be wise concerning this prophecy. Don't be caught sleeping.

    Willdfire
     
  17. jenlu

    jenlu Member

    246
    +1
    Wildfire...

    I think you'll find it interesting as well to actually find out in the Greek what exactly the disciple's asked...If it were to say world, I would be all for what you are saying...The greek word used is "aion"...This is the subject of his Olivet Discourse...you do not need to be preterist to see this...Your whole post is based on that question the disciple's gave Jesus...that question was about the end of the "age"...much different from the end of the "world"...

    All the other "judgement" type scripture you used have been used before in the O.T. and weren't meant to mean the end of the world... So to me, it is possible that Jesus or Peter and others were talking about the very important generation(not ours BTW) that literally crucified Jesus Christ..."Let His blood be on US and OUR CHILDREN" was their cry...well, could it be that God held them to their own condemnation...
     
  18. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

    454
    +1
    Jenlu, my whole post was based on the entirety of what jesus said; there were three questions given to him by the disciples:

    (when speaking of the stones of the temple being cast down)
    1) When shall these things be?

    2) And what shall be the <sign> of thy coming?

    3) And of the end of the world?

    Jesus answers by telling them what this world will expect; wars, rumours of wars, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, false prophets, but the end is not yet.

    But when you see the abomination of desolation, thats it.

    Immediately after the tribulation of <those days> shall the sun be darkened, the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

    Then shall appear the <sign> of the son of man in heaven: and then shall the tribes of the earth mourn.
    who are the tribes? the elect, the chosen, who watched for the coming of the Lord.

    Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
    Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

    Please read the entirety of Matthew 24; from beginning to the end. It begins with the signs to watch for, and ends with a warning to those who do not.

    Wildfire
     
  19. jenlu

    jenlu Member

    246
    +1
    Wildfire,

    Did you read my post...the word used by the disciple's was "age"... not world...kind of changes that question IMHO...read the second paragraph to answer those questions on the way I see Jesus' remarks on the signs...the O.T. is full of that type of "Judgement type language"..."Let His blood be on US and OUR CHILDREN"...it's possible God held them to it...
     
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +3,027
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Wildfire,

    Jenlu is correct, the subject matter is the end of the Age, the parousia of Chirst, and the temples destruction. all of which the disciples connected as one event, and Jesus never corrects this notion, in fact he strengthens it.

    All one needs to do is examine the parallel accounts of Matt 24.

    Mark 13:4
    "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?"


    you can see it's one question with two parts. "When, and what are the signs" Jesus just told them that the temple would be destroyed, and look at the language He used:

    Matt 24:2
    And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."


    clearly the term "all these things" encompases all events leading up to and including the temples destruction at the "end of the age".

    And we have the commentary of Luke to "sew up tight" the preterist understanding:

    Luke 21:20-22
    20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


    It just dosen't get any clearer than that.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
Loading...