Matthew 12 - Humm

[GreenMunchkin]

But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

Can I ask for some thoughts on those verses, please? What does it mean that by our words we'll be acquitted or condemned?

Is it because our words are indicative of what's happening inside? Our words show our fruits, maybe?

Am just confused, really, because if we're not saved by works, how can just *words* be so huge?

Thank you so much for any thoughts

 

[MrJim]

Can I ask for some thoughts on those verses, please? What does it mean that by our words we'll be acquitted or condemned?

Is it because our words are indicative of what's happening inside? Our words show our fruits, maybe?

Am just confused, really, because if we're not saved by works, how can just *words* be so huge?

Thank you so much for any thoughts

We are saved "if"~~there is a huge conditional aspect to it unless you are calvinist/once saved always saved..

The gift of salvation if bestowed to us~if we do not care and nurture that gift then we can shipwreck it; ruin it to a point of apostacy. Just like any gift given you can wreck it to the point it no longer resembles the gift first given.

So now we deteriorate into the calvinist/arminian argument and hundreds of bible proof-texts get tossed around~seems it always comes down to that

 

[GreenMunchkin]

We are saved "if"~~there is a huge conditional aspect to it unless you are calvinist/once saved always saved..

The gift of salvation if bestowed to us~if we do not care and nurture that gift then we can shipwreck it; ruin it to a point of apostacy. Just like any gift given you can wreck it to the point it no longer resembles the gift first given.

So now we deteriorate into the calvinist/arminian argument and hundreds of bible proof-texts get tossed around~seems it always comes down to that

I don't understand what any of that means, Jimminy What's the Calvinist argument? And how does it relate to our speech acquitting or condemning us? Am sorry for stupidity

 

[Zecryphon]

Can I ask for some thoughts on those verses, please? What does it mean that by our words we'll be acquitted or condemned?

Is it because our words are indicative of what's happening inside? Our words show our fruits, maybe?

Am just confused, really, because if we're not saved by works, how can just *words* be so huge?

Thank you so much for any thoughts

I think the key here is repentance. If we repent of all our sins and ask God to forgive us of all of our sins, not just the ones we're conscious of, we know, because God has said so, that He will forgive our sins. Repentance like faith is not something we do, it is something God does, something He works in us. We will give an account on the last day, we will acknowlege all the vain, empty and idle talk we have engaged in. What saves us on that day is not the acknowledgement of such talk, but our faith in Christ. I believe that since we will be judged upon what we say, according to these scriptures our confession of faith in Christ will also be taken into account by God and that is what will save us. It is the truly evil person who will not have that confession of faith on the last day who will be damned. My NASB Life Application Study Bible, in the notes for these verses says that, these verses are a reminder from Jesus that what we speak, what comes out of our mouths, is indicative of the condition of our hearts. If we speak evil, it's because our heart is evil, if we speak good, it is because our hearts are good. The only way to have a good heart is to have it transformed by the Holy Spirit in faith, which is God's doing.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

I think the key here is repentance. If we repent of all our sins and ask God to forgive us of all of our sins, not just the ones we're conscious of, we know, because God has said so, that He will forgive our sins. Repentance like faith is not something we do, it is something God does, something He works in us. We will give an account on the last day, we will acknowlege all the vain, empty and idle talk we have engaged in. What saves us on that day is not the acknowledgement of such talk, but our faith in Christ. I believe that since we will be judged upon what we say, according to these scriptures our confession of faith in Christ will also be taken into account by God and that is what will save us. It is the truly evil person who will not have that confession of faith on the last day who will be damned. My NASB Life Application Study Bible, in the notes for these verses says that, these verses are a reminder from Jesus that what we speak, what comes out of our mouths, is indicative of the condition of our hearts. If we speak evil, it's because our heart is evil, if we speak good, it is because our hearts are good. The only way to have a good heart is to have it transformed by the Holy Spirit in faith, which is God's doing.

So it's not the words per se, but it's that the words represent our hearts?

It's just, non-Christians can be good people who don't speak badly... so am confused as to what specifically our words say (no pun intended) about us in regards to our Christianity. I get that they're representative - am just not sure how it's specific to our Christian faith.

 

[MrJim]

I don't understand what any of that means, Jimminy What's the Calvinist argument? And how does it relate to our speech acquitting or condemning us? Am sorry for stupidity

Look at it this way~consider Matt 25:


Mt 25:31 –Mt 25:46 NKJV
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’
Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Now here we see the measure of salvation~not the embraced creeds but the action of a changed life. The measure isn't how much you believed but that the evidence of new life is shown. It is by our works that our faith will be known.

In your OP Jesus is addressing the Pharisees:

Mt 12:25 –Mt 12:37 NKJV
But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.
If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.
“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.
Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

The tongue then is another evidence of the obedient-love relationship we are to have with Christ-realize that too, when we sin by speaking evil things, we also have forgiveness if we ask for it.

 

[Zecryphon]

The idea that non-Christians can be good is in direct violation of the scriptures. Read Romans 3:23-24. It says: '(23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (24) and are justified freely by his grace though the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.' - NIVAlso read: Ephesians 2:1-10, Romans 5:8 and Psalm 51:5. The sin that exists in us at birth and separates man from God prior to faith in Christ can not be denied, if one believes the testimony of divine scripture. I'm not saying you don't believe the divine scriptures, so please do not take that statement to mean that. Those scriptures say we will be judged on every careless word we have spoken. But if you start reading in v. 30 I think you'll find the answer to your question. Jesus says that whoever is not with him is against him and he who does not gather with him, scatters. He then says every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either in this age or the age to come. I think these verses are the key to understanding the verses you're questioning. It seems that the idle and vain words we speak will be forgiven, but it is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, that is the evil deed that will condemn men on the last day and such a deed or fruit can only be borne by a tree that is evil.

 

[MrJim]

Mk 9:39 –Mk 9:41 NKJV
But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.
For he who is not against us is on our side. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.

Mt 12:28 –Mt 12:30 NKJV
But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

Always thought these two passages-the bolded parts-were interesting...

 

[Zecryphon]

MrJim said: 'Now here we see the measure of salvation~not the embraced creeds but the action of a changed life. The measure isn't how much you believed but that the evidence of new life is shown. It is by our works that our faith will be known.'Jim, that's works-righteousness. You are saying, if I am understanding you correctly, that it doesn't matter what you confess with your mouth, all that matters is what you DO. That's heresy.

 

[MrJim]

MrJim said: 'Now here we see the measure of salvation~not the embraced creeds but the action of a changed life. The measure isn't how much you believed but that the evidence of new life is shown. It is by our works that our faith will be known.'Jim, that's works-righteousness. You are saying, if I am understanding you correctly, that it doesn't matter what you confess with your mouth, all that matters is what you DO. That's heresy.

I'm saying that if both aren't there you're going to have a tough standing before God in judgment...it'll be one of those "I never knew you" moments.

Now there are going to be large differences of opinion between a quasi-baptist/Catholic sort like myself and a Lutheran on issues of heresy~don't get me started down that road or it will end in a destructive thread.

 

[Zecryphon]

Gotta tell ya the quasi Baptist/Catholic description is one I've never run across in my travels.

 

[nzguy]

You guys are conservative Christians and believe salvation can be lossed?

Interesting...

you may want to have a look at Revelation verses about whoremongers.. adulterers etc.. who are not actually in hell.. but in heaven, outside the gates!

How can this be?

Maybe because at some point the received the free gift of salvation.. and Christ chose to commit to them regardless of what happened after that point? How else do you explain the verse..

these people are not in hell.. because hell according to Revelation had been destroyed earlier in the piece.. the whoremongerers.. murderers etc... that were in hell earlier are not the same as the ones 'outside the gates'.

all verses which may seem to intimate loss of salvation need to be compared with all other salvation verses such as Ephesians 2 vs 8-9.. John 3:16.. 1 Corinthians chapter 3.. etc.. etc..

the bible does not contradict itself..

the 'faith without works is dead' verses in James are about accounts of daily service to God.. not the one off act of salvation. All the examples James mentions are of acts of service.. not about believing in Christ for eternal life.

I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian..

I reject Calvinism because for Calvinism you do not ask Christ into your life.. you don't have the capacity to.. which I don believe is biblically sound at all.

I reject Arminianism.. because you can lose your salvation for full Arminianism.. which flies in the face of Jesus sacrifice for our sins.. rendering it only partially effective.. making Jesus to not really be God.

As for the 'blasphemy of the Holy Spirit'-- read the verses in which this appears.. it is about people who are unsaved continually denying the deity of Christ.. not about saved folks!

Scripture with scripture
line upon line
precept upon precept

determines the truth

so put Matthew 12 verse in context with the entire chapter 12 of Matthew and ask yourself who what where when why?

from

NZguy

 

[GreenMunchkin]

You guys are conservative Christians and believe salvation can be lossed?

Conservative Christianity doesn't necessitate believing OSAS. We can't lose salvation, but we can throw it away, for sure.

Take, for example, a Christian who one day gets into witchcraft and anti-Christianity. They're an aggressive proponent for both, actively attempting to lead people away from the Lord, living in sin unrepentantly, sexual, lies, idol worship... do you believe that person is still saved?

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

You guys are conservative Christians and believe salvation can be lossed?

Interesting...

you may want to have a look at Revelation verses about whoremongers.. adulterers etc.. who are not actually in hell.. but in heaven, outside the gates!

How can this be?

Maybe because at some point the received the free gift of salvation.. and Christ chose to commit to them regardless of what happened after that point? How else do you explain the verse..

these people are not in hell.. because hell according to Revelation had been destroyed earlier in the piece.. the whoremongerers.. murderers etc... that were in hell earlier are not the same as the ones 'outside the gates'.

all verses which may seem to intimate loss of salvation need to be compared with all other salvation verses such as Ephesians 2 vs 8-9.. John 3:16.. 1 Corinthians chapter 3.. etc.. etc..

the bible does not contradict itself..

the 'faith without works is dead' verses in James are about accounts of daily service to God.. not the one off act of salvation. All the examples James mentions are of acts of service.. not about believing in Christ for eternal life.

I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian..

I reject Calvinism because for Calvinism you do not ask Christ into your life.. you don't have the capacity to.. which I don believe is biblically sound at all.

I reject Arminianism.. because you can lose your salvation for full Arminianism.. which flies in the face of Jesus sacrifice for our sins.. rendering it only partially effective.. making Jesus to not really be God.

As for the 'blasphemy of the Holy Spirit'-- read the verses in which this appears.. it is about people who are unsaved continually denying the deity of Christ.. not about saved folks!

Scripture with scripture
line upon line
precept upon precept

determines the truth

so put Matthew 12 verse in context with the entire chapter 12 of Matthew and ask yourself who what where when why?

from

NZguy

I think I agree with you on this, though I'll have to study it more.

However, "conservative Christians" is a pretty broad category that can (as the FSGs are written) encompass Calvinists, Arminians, Lutherans, Catholics and Orthodox. Where the CC definition comes closest to losing me isn't on theology, where I can almost qualify as a fundamentalist, but on the social conservative side of politics: I'm socially moderate and politically libertarian, so that's kinda pushing the limits.

 

[A New Dawn]

I don't understand what any of that means, Jimminy What's the Calvinist argument? And how does it relate to our speech acquitting or condemning us? Am sorry for stupidity

The Calvinist argument is that all of our sins were atoned for when Christ died on the cross, not just the ones we had committed at the time we became saved. Calvinists believe that upon regeneration the Holy Spirit resides within us, conforming us into the image of Christ. Satan still has his darts aimed at us, and we still fall victim to his temptations, but slowly, the reforming work of the Holy Spirit makes us more and more Christlike. Calvinists believe that good works (actions, thoughts, etc.) will follow those who are regenerated because we have a new nature and a burning desire to follow Christ's teachings and commandments.

 

[A New Dawn]

You guys are conservative Christians and believe salvation can be lossed?

Not all conservative Christians believe you cannot lose your salvation (and just for clarity, I believe that "losing your salvation" and "throwing it away" are the same thing.)

I reject Calvinism because for Calvinism you do not ask Christ into your life.. you don't have the capacity to.. which I don believe is biblically sound at all.

NZguy

You need to take that up with the multitude of people who had that happen to them (me being one.)

 

[Zecryphon]

You guys are conservative Christians and believe salvation can be lossed?

I'm sure there are some here who do not subscribe to OSAS.

you may want to have a look at Revelation verses about whoremongers.. adulterers etc.. who are not actually in hell.. but in heaven, outside the gates!

How can this be?

Give us the scriptures so we can take a look at them.

Maybe because at some point the received the free gift of salvation.. and Christ chose to commit to them regardless of what happened after that point? How else do you explain the verse..

What point? I can't offer an explanation for a verse or verses that you have not referenced or provided.

these people are not in hell.. because hell according to Revelation had been destroyed earlier in the piece.. the whoremongerers.. murderers etc... that were in hell earlier are not the same as the ones 'outside the gates'.

So you believe Revelation is laid out as one single vision from beginning to end?

all verses which may seem to intimate loss of salvation need to be compared with all other salvation verses such as Ephesians 2 vs 8-9.. John 3:16.. 1 Corinthians chapter 3.. etc.. etc..

Yeah and?

the bible does not contradict itself..

Who has said the Bible does contradict itself?

the 'faith without works is dead' verses in James are about accounts of daily service to God.. not the one off act of salvation. All the examples James mentions are of acts of service.. not about believing in Christ for eternal life.

The acts or works that James is speaking of do have to do with believing in Christ for eternal life, because after you have been saved and your heart has been changed you now will do works that flow from that salvation. These works come from being saved, they are not something we do to be saved.

I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian..

I reject Calvinism because for Calvinism you do not ask Christ into your life.. you don't have the capacity to.. which I don believe is biblically sound at all.

I believe it's Biblically sound. See these verses:

Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. Rom 3:12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

Ephesians 2:1-10:

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Now tell me why you believe that people can ask Jesus into their hearts. In fact, find me the verse that says we are to do this to receive salvation. This teaching has zero support from the scriptures. Faith is a gift. It is by God's grace that we are saved, not by something we do, like asking Jesus into our heart.

I reject Arminianism.. because you can lose your salvation for full Arminianism.. which flies in the face of Jesus sacrifice for our sins.. rendering it only partially effective.. making Jesus to not really be God.

As for the 'blasphemy of the Holy Spirit'-- read the verses in which this appears.. it is about people who are unsaved continually denying the deity of Christ.. not about saved folks!

Who was Jesus addressing when He spoke about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? It was the Pharisees, right? Were the Pharisees not trusting in the Jewish writings of a future messiah? Were they not sticking to the writings of Moses and others? Can we say that all Pharisees are in Hell because they continually attempted to trap Jesus with His own teachings or because they continually tested Him? I don't know if a person can say that, because then you're speaking to the salvation of another person which we as Christians absolutely can not do.

Scripture with scripture
line upon line
precept upon precept

determines the truth

How people read the scriptures determines their understanding. A person could read scripture with scripture, line upon line, precept upon precept from the standpoint of higher criticism and come to a completely different understanding than somebody who does the same thing who believes the Bible is the truly inspired, inerrant written word of God.

 

[MrJim]

I'm sure there are some here who do not subscribe to OSAS.

I consider the Lutheran doctrine of Apostacy (which is a "loss" of salvation) to be very close if not spot-on to what I believe on the subject..

 

[Zecryphon]

I'm still working through this loss of salvation doctrine. I was raised to believe in OSAS. Now that I'm a Lutheran, I've been exposed to a different teaching, one that says it is possible to lose your salvation. So it's a lot to work through.

 

[nzguy]

asking Christ in for eternal life: (the verses are out of the Amplified Version of the bible.. I need to download E-Sword so I can get the KJV version)

Romans 10:

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

'calling upon the name of the Lord'
.... fits with calling out to Christ for salvation
'confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.'
.... fits with calling out to God for salvation.

in the Greek.. the word 'believe' with verses like -

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 3:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

believe.. or believeth in the Greek: from the Strong's Concordance:

4100 pisteuw pisteuo pist-yoo'-o

from 4102; TDNT-6:174,849; v

AV-believe 239, commit unto 4, commit to (one's) trust 1, be committed unto 1, be put in trust with 1, be commit to one's trust 1, believer 1; 248

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
1bc) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing

so it is entrusting salvation with Jesus Christ.. in the above verses..

saving faith..

this is what someone does when they call out to Christ for salvation.. putting their faith in Christ for salvation.. who responds by sealing them with His Holy Spirit.

No works involved.. just a cry out to God.. a step of faith..

it is believing on Christ for eternal life.. a one off act.. where Christ has previously drawn that person.. and they are responding to the call by asking Him to forgive them of their sin and give them eternal life.

so that is salvation by grace through faith in Christ..

the other thing about Revelation mentioning whoremongerers etc.. who are still in heaven:

The first lot of people who are judged to be put in the Lake of Fire:

Revelation 21:

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



The second lot of people who are in heaven, not inside the gates of heaven:

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Revelations 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Doesn't make sense to think of the second group as the same as the first.. the first group are gone already.. extinguished. The context of the verse in the second group of people is also about the heavenly Jerusalem.

Purgatory is out of the question.. because this is final judgment.. not people waiting for judgment.. aside from that.. purgatory is unbiblical.

the bible interprets itself.. of no private interpretation.. so all I have typed here needs to be compared with other verses about eternal life and judgment..

but from what others who have done this very thing have said to me.. it is sound scriptural doctrine to believe in calling out to Christ for salvation.. and salvation can in no way be lossed.

from

NZguy