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Matthew 12 - Humm

Zecryphon

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I'm not here to oppose your post, but I heard a sermon a long time ago the book of life & judgment in Revelation.

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

I'd just add that there are several books He has that He'll be judging from, not just 1.
The verse in Exodus doesn't say "book of life"... the book being referred to there could be one of the others we aren't given any information about that will be used during judgment.
(SCARY!).
Even tho in context it may mean that book.

I'd also add that again, this was prior to the crucifixion when the Law was their righteousness, they weren't under grace at this time.

They were under some type of system of grace though, because as long as the high priests made their grain, burnt and sin offerings, the sins of the people were covered. Now granted, this is a foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Christ, but still, if they were under a strict system of law, there would be no way to atone or cover their sins.
 
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Nadiine

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They were under some type of system of grace though, because as long as the high priests made their grain, burnt and sin offerings, the sins of the people were covered. Now granted, this is a foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Christ, but still, if they were under a strict system of law, there would be no way to atone or cover their sins.
Ya.... I tend to agree on that. I'll say this tho, it's one period of time I sure wouldn't have wanted to live in.

:swoon:
 
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Nadiine

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I sort of see what you're saying, but it feels quite confusing and a little tangled in my head. Explain a little more, please?
What about Jesus' statement,
"for out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks"?

What we say is what is inside of us - who we are inwardly so to speak.

There's also another verse that says this:
Matthew 12:36
But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak,
they will give account of it in the day of judgment.


So our words can condemn or acquit us.
 
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Wade Smith

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I sort of see what you're saying, but it feels quite confusing and a little tangled in my head. Explain a little more, please?

Well, tht is partly because very few "churches" even teach this any more.


2 Peter 3:15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

===

I used the example of running a race, which Paul also used, but lets see if I can clean this up a bit.


Ok.
"everyone shall be judged by the words of their mouth."

Absolutely true.

However, as I said, the "Just shall live by his faith."

When the Judgment comes, it is an "if/then/else" sort of event.


If the person has faith in Jesus Christ and what he did at the cross.

Then, he is "Justified by faith". and is therefore judged only according to his faith. He is rewarded only according to his good works, because his evil works are not remembered. For the "Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the Law of sin and death."

Else if the person has faith in anything other than Jesus Christ and what he did at the Cross

Then that person is judged according to the "Law of sin and death," and of course, the "Law of Sin and Death" says "Thou Shalt not" and if you break that commandment, then "Thou shalt surely die" and "thine eye shall not pity him..." So if the person told even one lie, because they are self righteous, they are guilty of death and will die. If they blasphemed even one time, because they are not justified, they will die.

That is a very direct, and hopefully understandable breakdown of the judgement of both the truly righteous (by faith) and the wicked(self righteous.)
========


Now I guess this is a bit more elaboration on related topic, which goes hand in hand with "justification by faith", and that is "sanctification by faith".

This is a lot to read, so you may need to take a break. LoL.

You see, God does not judge us by weighing our "evil works" against our "good works" and whichever is bigger wins. Not at all, for if anything, that is in fact the lie that the devil tells the self righteous.

"I'm not a murderer. I pay tithe. I go to church. I read the Bible. I pray. I got baptized. I'm a "good" person. I do charity work and social work. Raised my kids well. Never cheated on the wife/husband, etc. I'm a "good" <insert favorite denomination or non-denomination>."


But none of those things can save anyone.

Under the law, God's standard of righteousness:

if we tell even one "little white lie", we are guilty of death.

if a guy so much as looks at a supermodel and lusts, or a woman so much as looks at brad pitt and lusts, then they broke the tenth commandment. "Thou shalt not covet". If we break even one commandment, we are guilty of death, and no amount of keeping other commandments can redeem. Even the sacrifical system under the Old Covenant could not redeem,

"for it was not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could remove sins."

Salvation, justification, sanctification, etc, never came by keeping commandments, nor did it ever come by killing an animal and burning it. It came by placing faith in what that symbolic sacrifice represented, which was "Jesus Christ and what he did at the Cross".

No matter how much we have kept the other commandments, we are still guilty of the one we break, at least if we are under the law.

Paul said if you break one commandment you break them all.

This is why works, even "good works" cannot redeem, cannot justify, cannot sanctify, yet it is so very deceptive, especially for Christians.

but "no flesh shall glory in his presence."

We read our Bibles because the Lord says, "Study to show yourself approved," and yet, reading the Bible does not redeem, justify, or sanctify.

If we have faith in "reading the Bible", then we have faith in works, which is typified by cain's vegetables, which God will not honor.

Reading the Bible is a "good" work, in fact, one of the best. Yet...

"Search the scriptures, for in them you THINK you have eternal life, and they are that which testifies of Me."

The Scribes and pharisees "knew" the Old Covenant, and yet they didn't understand a thing about it, didn't know God, didn't know him when he was standing right in front of them. In really they didn't know the scriptures half as well as they thought they did, and this in spite of their much study.


We pray because the Lord tells us to, because it is the "right" thing to do, because we have relationship with God. Yet, prayer cannot redeem, justify, or sanctify.

If we have "faith in prayers", then we are self righteous.

"Be not as the hypocrites are...using vain repetitions...for they think they will be heard for their much speaking."

They pray and pray and pray, and because prayer is a "good" work, they deceive themselves, believing that "the more I pray, the more godly I must be..." or something like that, which is usually very subtle and they may not even fully realize they are doing it.

Nadab and Abihuh died before the Lord for using "strange fire", which typifies anything, however good and noble it may be in and of itself, anything at all that is not "Jesus Christ and him Crucified".

Now believers, they weren't doing anything paganistic or occultic. They died because they failed to use fire from the properly sanctified vessels, and instead, got fire from somewhere in the camp. Fire represents various things in scripture, most notably judgement, but also sanctification. We cannot be sanctified by "strange fire", but rather only by the fire of the "Holy Spirit" (John said that Jesus would baptize with fire and the Holy Spirit), which again comes only through "Jesus Christ and what he did at the Cross". God cannot honor "strange fire".


The Gospel is so simple a child can understand.

It's only difficulty comes becomes of the flesh, because we are so used to the world's way of thinking and patting ourselves on the back.
 
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Wade Smith

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They were under some type of system of grace though, because as long as the high priests made their grain, burnt and sin offerings, the sins of the people were covered. Now granted, this is a foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Christ, but still, if they were under a strict system of law, there would be no way to atone or cover their sins.


Exactly, "Justification by faith", is one of the oldest doctrines in the Bible.

The entire book of Job is really about "justification by faith".

Genesis? Key topic: "Salvation by faith. Justification by faith. Sanctification by faith. Righteousness by faith."

First in the story of Cain and Able.
then Genesis 15:6
then chapter 22: "My son, God will provide us a Lamb."

Habbakuk "Justification by faith"


AT any rate, in Genesis 22 we see, "A lamb for a man".

In exodus 12, we see, "A lamb for a family".

In Leviticus 23 we see, "A lamb for a nation."

and in John 1:29 we see, "A lamb for the World".


In Revelation 13:8, we see that the lamb was "slain from the foundation of the world."


The only thing that has changed since the day of the fall is this.

Before the historical event of the crucifixion, they looked "forward" to the promise of the coming redeemer and what he would do.

Whereas now we look "back" to the fact that the redeemer has already come.

But it has always been "By grace ye are saved, not of works lest any man should boast, it is the gift of God."

It has always been, "Justification by faith."
 
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rob64

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As for the 'blasphemy of the Holy Spirit'-- read the verses in which this appears.. it is about people who are unsaved continually denying the deity of Christ.. not about saved folks! NZguy

It is not!
Go look up "blasphemy" in a Strongs Concordance of the Bible, Blasphemy is when you talk disrespectfully. Or just simply, "talking bad". In the CONTEXT of the verse, They were acusing Jesus of casting demons out by the power of satan. They attributed the work of the Holy Ghost to satan. Jesus said that it will be forgiven if you blaspheme God, or Jesus. But not the Holy Ghost. Jesus was full of the Spirit, He operated in all the gifts of the Spirit.
The part you are right about is that true christians will never do this.
"Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost" is exactly what it says it is.
Peace!
 
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rob64

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Can I ask for some thoughts on those verses, please? What does it mean that by our words we'll be acquitted or condemned?

Is it because our words are indicative of what's happening inside? Our words show our fruits, maybe?

Am just confused, really, because if we're not saved by works, how can just *words* be so huge?

Thank you so much for any thoughts :hug:

Hello GreenMunchkin, To answer your question, without alot of drama, I havta give some advice about interpreting the Bible;

CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT !!!

Also, it helps to find out who is being addressed, because sometimes christians (only) are being addressed, as with sinners, and pharasees, and the pious leaders,
So, once we figure out the WHO part, it starts becoming more like the TRUTH.
We as true believers arent always being refered to.

As in this case, Jesus was not talking TO christians, he was talking to sinners. We dont have a judgement day. Jesus wiped our slate clean. Judgement is what a sinner deserves.:D
 
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Wade Smith

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Hello GreenMunchkin, To answer your question, without alot of drama, I havta give some advice about interpreting the Bible;

CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT !!!

Also, it helps to find out who is being addressed, because sometimes christians (only) are being addressed, as with sinners, and pharasees, and the pious leaders,
So, once we figure out the WHO part, it starts becoming more like the TRUTH.
We as true believers arent always being refered to.

As in this case, Jesus was not talking TO christians, he was talking to sinners. We dont have a judgement day. Jesus wiped our slate clean. Judgement is what a sinner deserves.:D

Here is the Judgement of believers.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Corinthians 3:11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.



The foundation is Christ.

The Gold, silver, and precious stones represent the works of faith, which are done through faith in Jesus Christ and what he did at the Cross. These do not burn in the fire, which represents judgement and sanctification.

The wood, hay, and stubble represent "works of the flesh" and any other works which are not "works of faith". These burn in the fire, which represents judgement and sanctification.
 
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Nadiine

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Here is the Judgement of believers.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Corinthians 3:11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.



The foundation is Christ.

The Gold, silver, and precious stones represent the works of faith, which are done through faith in Jesus Christ and what he did at the Cross. These do not burn in the fire, which represents judgement and sanctification.

The wood, hay, and stubble represent "works of the flesh" and any other works which are not "works of faith". These burn in the fire, which represents judgement and sanctification.
I have a Q.
when you say works of faith - is that to include God judging our motive in why we did the good work?

Like,... let's say you donate money to a Christian charity - yet you did it for a selfish reason. Do you believe that's still rewarded (didn't burn in fire)?
Just curious & don't want to derail the thread
 
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Wade Smith

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I have a Q.
when you say works of faith - is that to include God judging our motive in why we did the good work?

Like,... let's say you donate money to a Christian charity - yet you did it for a selfish reason. Do you believe that's still rewarded (didn't burn in fire)?
Just curious & don't want to derail the thread


If you do it for a selfish reason, then you are in the flesh.

Self = flesh.

"Deny your self and take up the cross."

This is what is so backwards about the so-called "prosperity" message.

No, the person will not recieve a reward.

Matthew 6:1
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

Now I know there are other selfish reasons besides "being seen of men", but the point is, Jesus himself said God isn't going to give a reward for that.

The scribes and pharisees gave all this money because they wanted to be seen, or else because they thought they were somehow "earning" righteousness by doing so, but Jesus said the widow that threw in two mites had given more.



Ok, here are some possible things that can go "wrong" about the "good" work of giving.

1) Person gives for a selfish reason. (hypocrissy)
Whether they are somehow getting a "kickback" or whether it is just to be seen, or to impress a girl or whatever. Jesus said, "They have their reward," in other words, being seen was the only reward they'll get. the Lord will not reward them.

2) Person gives with an honest heart, but places faith in giving.
This person probably doesn't even entirely realize they're doing something wrong, but they THINK that they are somehow more holy or more pleasing to God by giving. They have shifted their faith from the finished work of Christ to their own works.




On the other hand, a person who has properly placed their faith in Jesus Christ, they will give neither to be seen of man, nor to justify themselves, nor for any selfish reason, but rather give because the Holy Spirit works this in them.


====

Giving to the work of God, or giving to some person in need, or an organization meant to help such people, are all good and noble things and we should do them. However, if we do them to be seen, then there is no reward. If we place our faith in the fact that we do these things, then we are trying to justify ourselves to God, and there is no reward.

We can also look at this from the opposite perspective.

Adultery is a hideous sin, and none of us should do it. However, our faith cannot be placed in the fact that we did not commit adultery, because if it is, then we are self righteous. and "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags."



In short, if you do a "good" work, but for a selfish reason, then it becomes a "work of the flesh", that is, in some way it will fall under the category of idolatry or greed or self righteousness, all of which must be "burned up", and even repented of.
 
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rob64

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Here is the Judgement of believers.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Corinthians 3:11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.



The foundation is Christ.

The Gold, silver, and precious stones represent the works of faith, which are done through faith in Jesus Christ and what he did at the Cross. These do not burn in the fire, which represents judgement and sanctification.

The wood, hay, and stubble represent "works of the flesh" and any other works which are not "works of faith". These burn in the fire, which represents judgement and sanctification.

I'm at work right now, but I'll be getting back with you on this.
 
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Secundulus

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Can I ask for some thoughts on those verses, please? What does it mean that by our words we'll be acquitted or condemned?

Is it because our words are indicative of what's happening inside? Our words show our fruits, maybe?

Am just confused, really, because if we're not saved by works, how can just *words* be so huge?

Thank you so much for any thoughts :hug:
You are not saved by works. You are saved by Jesus Christ.

He died to make a covenant with us in his blood. This covenant works two ways. He will forgive you your sins and grant you eternal life if you love him.

But what did he say that "to love him means?"

He said, "If you love me you will keep my commandments." (John 14:15, NJB)

We know, at least most of us frim personal experience, that this is impossible. But he has given us the Holy Spirit to discern what he wants us to do and to help us do it. If we fail, he will forgive us, IF we recognize our transgression and confess the sin.

If we call him a liar and continue in sin and refuse to confess our rebellion against him then there is no forgiveness and we will be held personally accountable for that sin.

He is not giving us a free ticket to eternal life that allows us to freely continue in our old and sinful ways.
 
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Secundulus

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you may want to have a look at Revelation verses about whoremongers.. adulterers etc.. who are not actually in hell.. but in heaven, outside the gates!

How can this be?
A Catholic will say that they are in Purgatory going through their final purgation so that they can attain the perfection necessary to stand in the presence of God.

Jesus has certainly saved them already, but because of their hardheartedness, they resisted the work of the Holy Spirit while they were still on earth.
 
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Nadiine

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You are not saved by works. You are saved by Jesus Christ.

He died to make a covenant with us in his blood. This covenant works two ways. He will forgive you your sins and grant you eternal life if you love him.

But what did he say that "to love him means?"

He said, "If you love me you will keep my commandments." (John 14:15, NJB)

We know, at least most of us frim personal experience, that this is impossible. But he has given us the Holy Spirit to discern what he wants us to do and to help us do it. If we fail, he will forgive us, IF we recognize our transgression and confess the sin.

If we call him a liar and continue in sin and refuse to confess our rebellion against him then there is no forgiveness and we will be held personally accountable for that sin.

He is not giving us a free ticket to eternal life that allows us to freely continue in our old and sinful ways.
:thumbsup:amen
 
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Wade Smith

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you may want to have a look at Revelation verses about whoremongers.. adulterers etc.. who are not actually in hell.. but in heaven, outside the gates!

How can this be?

Let scripture interpret scripture.

22;15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie

21:7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


You see, nobody is going to be "just hanging out" on the outside of the gate. "All liars" have their part in the lake of fire.


These who are judged according to thier sins, because they don't have the righteousness of Christ, will be cast into the "lake of fire".


chapter 14 speaks specificly of those who worship the "beast".
14:10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


Now Jesus said that the unbelievers would be cast into "outer darkness". They will not be able to see Jesus, but Jesus will be able to see them.

Notice, the penalty is "without mixture", it isn't watered down in any fashion. They take the full brunt of the wrath of almighty God forever and ever.


So we see, these sinners ARE outside the gate, but that is because they are IN the lake of fire. They are not just hanging out on the highway somewhere.
 
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rob64

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You are not saved by works. You are saved by Jesus Christ.

He died to make a covenant with us in his blood. This covenant works two ways. He will forgive you your sins and grant you eternal life if you love him.

But what did he say that "to love him means?"

He said, "If you love me you will keep my commandments." (John 14:15, NJB)

We know, at least most of us frim personal experience, that this is impossible. But he has given us the Holy Spirit to discern what he wants us to do and to help us do it. If we fail, he will forgive us, IF we recognize our transgression and confess the sin.

If we call him a liar and continue in sin and refuse to confess our rebellion against him then there is no forgiveness and we will be held personally accountable for that sin.

He is not giving us a free ticket to eternal life that allows us to freely continue in our old and sinful ways.

It seems like you are only giving half of the truth in this post;
1. We are saved by grace, through faith.
2. The covenant you refered to. You said "He will forgive your sins and grant you eternal life if you love him." Show me that in the Bible. Any time God makes a covenant with His people, it is required that we enter into this covenant with Him. He offers the covenant, and the intended reciever has to accept it and enter into a covenant relationship with Him. WE DONT DO THIS BY LOVING HIM. We accept the covenant by accepting the sacrifice of Christ, and grace. In this covenant God does everything for us. He even gives us the faith required to believe in Him.
3. You said, "if we call Him a liar..." Please quote that properly, thats not what it says, and read the entirety of the context. It says, "If we say we have no sin..." He's describing someone who isnt even saved.

"He is not giving us..." You got that right!!!
 
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