Matt 24 - post trib rapture at the 2nd coming

[jeffweedaman]

They cannot. AS you said, Christ will reign on Earth, not heaven.

He reigns over everything .


[ Once we are received into our imperishable bodies, we reign with him for where ever he is we are as well. ]



Doesnt the old heaven and earth perish when he comes ?


Jesus said in Matt 24

35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away....................

36 “But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.



He is coming to reign over a NHNE then , thats where he will be when he comes with the place he has prepared for us , according to his promise. .....right?

This has nothing to do with reigning on the old earth.


2Pet 3
13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,

16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

 

[BobRyan]

I think we're close. My view is "Post Trib Pre Wrath". I believe the "angels gathering the elect" is the 6th Seal and before God's wrath with the Trumpets and Bowls

Matt 24 says that this is the coming of Christ - there are no others in Matt 24 for Christ's return. (So Matt 24 is not a discussion of the millennium or what happens at the end of it)

Matt 24
“Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”
3 And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

=============== which is the end of the panoramic overview in Matt 24

So all mankind sees the Son of Man coming after the great tribulation and the signs listed have taken place -- and it is then that the saints are gathered/raptured in Matt 24 as Christ describes it.

 

[Berean Tim]

Matt 24 says that this is the coming of Christ - there are no others in Matt 24 for Christ's return. (So Matt 24 is not a discussion of the millennium or what happens at the end of it)

Matt 24
“Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”
3 And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

=============== which is the end of the panoramic overview in Matt 24

So all mankind sees the Son of Man coming after the great tribulation and the signs listed have taken place -- and it is then that the saints are gathered/raptured in Matt 24 as Christ describes it.

Revelation seems to expand that. Revelation 6:12When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 14The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slaved and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”
All peoples are hiding, they see him then as well. Then the 7th Seal is open and the Trumpets are revealed, the wrath of the Lamb.
My point and yours (I think) is the church will be here for the AntiChrist and his tribulation.

 

[Timtofly]

All peoples are hiding, they see him then as well. Then the 7th Seal is open and the Trumpets are revealed, the wrath of the Lamb.

What does the church do while the world has their souls taken out of their corruptible bodies by the angels? Are the angels taking out the souls of believers (the church) as well? Jesus is on earth if all on earth can see Jesus here.

 

[Berean Tim]

What does the church do while the world has their souls taken out of their corruptible bodies by the angels? Are the angels taking out the souls of believers (the church) as well? Jesus is on earth if all on earth can see Jesus here.

In Matthew 24 Jesus sends his angels to gather his Elect. In 1st Thessalonians 4 we are caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds. Revelation 6 The people see Him who is seated on the throne
Is Jesus on earth at these times ?

 

[BobRyan]

Revelation seems to expand that. Revelation 6:12When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 14The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slaved and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”
All peoples are hiding, they see him then as well.

I agree - it is an expansion of the details John heard in Matt 24 where God gives John additional information on that point.

Then the 7th Seal is open

True - but the 7th seal has just tone thing happen.

Rev 8:1 "When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour."

That's it. Nothing more. (Remember chapter divisions were inserted centuries later).

The two rules for prophecy are -
1. All apocalyptic timelines are contiguous
2. All apocalyptic timelines use day-for-year

1 day - 24 hours is 1 literal year of 12 months. so then each hour is 2 weeks and 1/2 hour is 1 week. Heaven is silent for 1 week after the 2nd coming event because that is the time where Christ, the Angels, and the saints travel from Earth to Heaven. A tour of that slice of God's creation .. a real treat for the saints.

 

[Timtofly]

In Matthew 24 Jesus sends his angels to gather his Elect. In 1st Thessalonians 4 we are caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds. Revelation 6 The people see Him who is seated on the throne
Is Jesus on earth at these times ?

That is what Jesus said:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The 6th and 7th Seal, and then the Trumpets.

It is the final harvest of souls by the angels.

 

[Berean Tim]

I agree - it is an expansion of the details John heard in Matt 24 where God gives John additional information on that point.



True - but the 7th seal has just tone thing happen.

Rev 8:1 "When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour."

That's it. Nothing more. (Remember chapter divisions were inserted centuries later).

The two rules for prophecy are -
1. All apocalyptic timelines are contiguous
2. All apocalyptic timelines use day-for-year

1 day - 24 hours is 1 literal year of 12 months. so then each hour is 2 weeks and 1/2 hour is 1 week. Heaven is silent for 1 week after the 2nd coming event because that is the time where Christ, the Angels, and the saints travel from Earth to Heaven. A tour of that slice of God's creation .. a real treat for the saints.

I'm not a "day for Year" guy. It would depend on context. Daniel uses 70 weeks of years. But I don't think you can press every day into a year

 

[Berean Tim]

That is what Jesus said:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The 6th and 7th Seal, and then the Trumpets.

It is the final harvest of souls by the angels.

Yes and the Trumpets come after the Seals. The 7th Seal is the appearing of the Trumpets and some will be saved during this time. Matthew 24 as you posted is after the events of the 6th Seal. The rise of the AC in the 4th Seal resulting in the martyrs of the 5th Seal

 

[Timtofly]

the saints travel from Earth to Heaven. A tour of that slice of God's creation .. a real treat for the saints.

97% of the church has already taken the tour.

 

[Eschatologicaldisaster]

He reigns over everything .


[ Once we are received into our imperishable bodies, we reign with him for where ever he is we are as well. ]



Doesnt the old heaven and earth perish when he comes ?


Jesus said in Matt 24

35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away....................

36 “But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.



He is coming to reign over a NHNE then , thats where he will be when he comes with the place he has prepared for us , according to his promise. .....right?

This has nothing to do with reigning on the old earth.


2Pet 3
13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,

16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

I don't disagree that we reign with him; where ever he is we will be also. But the New Heaven and New Earth is a removal of the world as it is under Babylon and the Gold, Silver, Brass and Iron statue., its not a new planet. Still, we reign on earth with Christ our Lord and a rod of Iron.

 

[BABerean2]

its not a new planet. Still, we reign on earth with Christ our Lord and a rod of Iron.

Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, this planet is going to be burned up.

Based on Hebrews 11:15-16, there is another home which has been created for us.

In Galatians 4:24-31 the Apostle Paul said the Jerusalem above is our mother.

.

 

[Eschatologicaldisaster]

Yes and the Trumpets come after the Seals. The 7th Seal is the appearing of the Trumpets and some will be saved during this time. Matthew 24 as you posted is after the events of the 6th Seal. The rise of the AC in the 4th Seal resulting in the martyrs of the 5th Seal

Where in scripture is it stated the man of sin is to rise in the 4th seal of Revelation?

 

[Eschatologicaldisaster]

Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, this planet is going to be burned up.

Based on Hebrews 11:15-16, there is another home which has been created for us.

In Galatians 4:24-31 the Apostle Paul said the Jerusalem above is our mother.

.

I guess you take that very literally. There is also a dragon, a harlot riding a beast, unicorns, 4 colored horses, 7 heads on a beast, locusts with hair etc...I would look into the O.T. (Isaiah is good) and read what they meant by "Melt" and "burned up".

 

[sovereigngrace]

1 Thess 4 - at the second coming "The dead in Christ rise first" and the John 14:1-3 promise is fulfilled - Christ takes the saints to heaven - to His Father's house.

Rev 20 says it is the "first resurrection" that marks the start of the 1000 years.

The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5). Positionally, we have our part in His life, death, resurrection, ascension and glorious reign through regeneration - being "in Christ." This means the lake of fire (the second death) has no claim over us. Our sin was buried with Christ and when He arose we arose. He was our representative. He was our substitute. The company that have their “part” in the first resurrection in Revelation 20:6 are all those that are spiritually raised “in Christ” from the grave of their sin.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I guess you take that very literally. There is also a dragon, a harlot riding a beast, unicorns, 4 colored horses, 7 heads on a beast, locusts with hair etc...I would look into the O.T. (Isaiah is good) and read what they meant by "Melt" and "burned up".

2 Peter 3:3-15 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming (parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation.”

We glean a lot of helpful detail here relating to what happens to the creature and creation when Jesus comes, and what immediately follows. If we are able to divorce ourselves from what we have been taught, we are looking at a very climactic picture.

• Unquestionably, the focus of this message is directed to the end-time-cynics who question God.
• These fools question God keeping His “promise.” What promise? It is “the promise of his coming.”
• The scorn and derision of these foolish last days scoffers and mockers are directed specifically towards the reality and occurrence of Christ’s coming.
• It is not in any way concentrated upon a supposed group of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years later. If this is supposed to be a collection of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years after the second coming, why would they be saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”? Such a notion is a complete absurdity as Christ’s coming (or parousia) is long past.
• This text shows us that today is the only day of salvation. Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). Romans 2:4 reaffirms that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming.
• The actual wrath described by the Holy Spirit comes suddenly and unexpectedly upon these foolish last days scoffers and mockers. There is no escape. They are the recipients of total destruction.
• We also see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (or heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The detail described arrives with Jesus.
• What happens to creation when Jesus arrives? 1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise. 2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, 3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. 4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The Premillennialist claims to be a literalist, so there is no spiritualization that can explain this away. It is water-tight.
• The description of the destruction could not be more comprehensive. It is undoubtedly the end. It involves wholesale and unavoidable annihilation for the wicked. It embraces the full gamut of fallen creation.
• What is this replaced with? A future millennium filled with sin and sinners, crying and dying? No. The Holy Spirit tells us that it the “new heavens and a new earth” that follows Christ’s return.
• The arrival of the “new heavens and a new earth” are here significantly connected to “his promise.”
• The Holy Spirit then assures the last days elect that their lot is not wrath or destruction. They experience the new heavens and new earth at His appearing.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I guess you take that very literally. There is also a dragon, a harlot riding a beast, unicorns, 4 colored horses, 7 heads on a beast, locusts with hair etc...I would look into the O.T. (Isaiah is good) and read what they meant by "Melt" and "burned up".

If Peter was intending to only symbolically refer to the earth being burned up then why, in 2 Peter 3:5-7, did he compare that fiery future event directly to what happened when the earth was flooded long ago?

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Why would Peter mention the flood that destroyed the earth long ago if he was only referring to the present heavens and earth being reserved for symbolic fire? His comparison wouldn't make any sense in that case. Wouldn't it make more sense for him to compare it to something else that was symbolic instead? Of course. So, he was clearly comparing a future literal, physical global event to a past, literal, physical global event.

I don't find it to be reasonable at all to think that Peter was referring to anything but literal fire in 2 Peter 3:7 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 because that's what the context demands.

 

[BABerean2]

I guess you take that very literally. There is also a dragon, a harlot riding a beast, unicorns, 4 colored horses, 7 heads on a beast, locusts with hair etc...I would look into the O.T. (Isaiah is good) and read what they meant by "Melt" and "burned up".

Do you literally believe what Paul said below about two Jerusalems?
Do you think Paul was exaggerating?


Gal 4:25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—
Gal 4:26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.


The "dragon" is a symbol, of a very real fallen angel named Satan.

.

 

[jeffweedaman]

If Peter was intending to only symbolically refer to the earth being burned up then why, in 2 Peter 3:5-7, did he compare that fiery future event directly to what happened when the earth was flooded long ago?

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Why would Peter mention the flood that destroyed the earth long ago if he was only referring to the present heavens and earth being reserved for symbolic fire? His comparison wouldn't make any sense in that case. Wouldn't it make more sense for him to compare it to something else that was symbolic instead? Of course. So, he was clearly comparing a future literal, physical global event to a past, literal, physical global event.

I don't find it to be reasonable at all to think that Peter was referring to anything but literal fire in 2 Peter 3:7 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 because that's what the context demands.

Very well put Bro'
What we are looking at is the last judgment by fire where only the righteous survive.

2Thess 1
This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.


Just as it was in the days of Noah .

 

[DavidPT]

In Matthew 24 Jesus sends his angels to gather his Elect.

When does He do that? Is it not during this event----and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory(Matthew 24:30)? Coming to where, if not the earth? He obviously isn't still in heaven at this point, nor would He be coming to heaven if He just left heaven.

Where else have we read about the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory? How about here?

Matthew 25:31 ¶When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.


It seems silly that He would be doing that somewhere else besides on the earth. It makes the coming in verse 31 pointless if He doesn't do these things on the earth, since that can be the only logical place He could possibly be coming to. So much for the entire planet literally being ablaze at the time as many Amils insist.