Matt 24:20 Pray your flight not be on a sabbath or in winter

[throughfiierytrial]

The "end times" that Matthew 24 is in reference to were the end of the Jewish/Temple age - not the end of the world.

I strongly disagree...
Really too much to go into except to say that all the end-time teachings, Judgement Day signs, etc are spelled out just as found a myriad of other places in the Scriptures.

 

[BABerean2]

The "end times" that Matthew 24 is in reference to were the end of the Jewish/Temple age - not the end of the world.

Yes, and no.


Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　

Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)





Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　





Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)



Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution


Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　

Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　

Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　

Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　

Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　

Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem


Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　(See also Luke 19:41-44)

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　



Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　



Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　) (See Luke 23:27-31 where Jesus warned the women weeping for Him.)



Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man


Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　



Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　

Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　



Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.


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[DavidPT]

Note: The command for the saints to flee Judea is very specific to the saints in the first century, and can’t apply to saints in the end times where there is no Judea. Praying that their flight would not be on the Sabbath applies to the first century, when the Jewish leaders would have closed the city gates and prohibited walking out of the city; which does not apply to the end times.

If taken literally, part of it seems to make sense that it might be meaning the saints in the first century, yet part of it doesn't. The part that doesn't would be as follows.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

That would mean the great trib meant here was meaning in the first century. But can that be right though?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Immediately after can't mean thousands of years later. IOW one can't have Matthew 24:21-22 meaning in the first century, while at the same time have Matthew 24:29-31 meaning at the end of the age thousands of years later. That's not immediately after. So, if Matthew 24:21-22 is meaning in the first century, did verse 29-31 also get fulfilled at the time? No. How do we square these things where everything agrees with the text? I haven't figured that out yet. If one makes Matthew 24:21-31 meaning the first century, some of it makes sense, some of it doesn't. If one makes Matthew 24:21-31 meaning in the endtimes, some of it makes sense, some of it doesn't. But this is assuming these events are to be taken literally. But what if they are not even literal events where anyone is fleeing to literal mountains, etc? Maybe that's the only way to get the text to make sense?

 

[BABerean2]

Immediately after can't mean thousands of years later.

There may be another possibility, based on Luke's Gospel.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,

until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

What if the times of the Gentiles started when Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles, which is described in Galatians 1:14-18?
We also find a reference to the period in Romans 11:25.

What if the period of tribulation extends until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled? Is it possible that tribulation gets worse near the end of the time period?

We find the Second Coming of Christ in Luke 21:25-28, when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Is this an unreasonable explanation of the text?

.

 

[DavidPT]

There may be another possibility, based on Luke's Gospel.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,

until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

What if the times of the Gentiles started when Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles, which is described in Galatians 1:14-18?
We also find a reference to the period in Romans 11:25.

What if the period of tribulation extends until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled? Is it possible that tribulation gets worse near the end of the time period?

We find the Second Coming of Christ in Luke 21:25-28, when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Is this an unreasonable explanation of the text?

.

Yes this actually seems reasonable what you propose here except for maybe one major detail I forgot to take into consideration in my last post. Matthew 24 indicates an AOD is involved with this. There was no AOD in the first century though. Once Christ died and rose the 2nd temple was already obsolete at that point. It therefore makes no sense that the temple would involve an AOD some 40 years later. That might be like saying an AOD is committed in a JW Kingdom Hall. But who would care though since it's not like a JW kingdom hall even without any AODs is a good thing?

 

[mkgal1]

That would mean the great trib meant here was meaning in the first century. But can that be right though?

Why can't it be right?

Immediately after can't mean thousands of years later. IOW one can't have Matthew 24:21-22 meaning in the first century, while at the same time have Matthew 24:29-31 meaning at the end of the age thousands of years later.

It seems that by your comment about "thousands of years later" you are interpreting "the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven" and "coming on the clouds" as His second coming. Am I correct?

You may be missing Matthew 24:34 that says,

Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.​

 

[DavidPT]

Why can't it be right?


It seems that by your comment about "thousands of years later" you are interpreting "the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven" and "coming on the clouds" as His second coming. Am I correct?

You may be missing Matthew 24:34 that says,

Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.​

As to Matthew 24:34 though. One has to interpret that in context, not out of context. Jesus said that in context having to do with events connected with the 2nd coming, and not events connected with the first century. IOW one needs to interpret Matthew 24:34 in context and not interpret the verses surrounding this one by what they are assuming verse 34 is meaning. If one is assuming it's first century context, that makes it out of context with the verses surrounding it since those are all 2nd coming context. Also by changing obvious 2nd coming context to mean first century context, such as Preterists do, this does nothing to make better sense of the texts. It does the exact opposite, it makes worse sense out of the texts involved.

 

[BABerean2]

Yes this actually seems reasonable what you propose here except for maybe one major detail I forgot to take into consideration in my last post. Matthew 24 indicates an AOD is involved with this. There was no AOD in the first century though. Once Christ died and rose the 2nd temple was already obsolete at that point. It therefore makes no sense that the temple would involve an AOD some 40 years later. That might be like saying an AOD is committed in a JW Kingdom Hall. But who would care though since it's not like a JW kingdom hall even without any AODs is still a good thing?

Not based on Luke's parallel Gospel.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.



The abomination of desolation that Christ was referring to (Let the reader understand.) occurred during 167 BC.

The Jews of Jesus time understood this fact, based on John 10:22.

Not only did Antiochus Epiphanes desecrate the temple but he also kiiled thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The same thing would happen during 70 AD.

.

 

[jgr]

Yes this actually seems reasonable what you propose here except for maybe one major detail I forgot to take into consideration in my last post. Matthew 24 indicates an AOD is involved with this. There was no AOD in the first century though. Once Christ died and rose the 2nd temple was already obsolete at that point. It therefore makes no sense that the temple would involve an AOD some 40 years later. That might be like saying an AOD is committed in a JW Kingdom Hall. But who would care though since it's not like a JW kingdom hall even without any AODs is a good thing?

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

Luke's parallel account clarifies the abomination of desolation.
Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

It was the appearance of the pagan Roman armies -- abominations to the Jews --, advancing upon the Holy City of Jerusalem.

 

[dqhall]

What is the reason Jesus is telling the Jews to pray their flight doesn't happen on a sabbath, which would be between Friday evening thru Saturday evening?

Matthew 24:
19 But woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days!
20 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on a sabbath:
21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.

Mark only mentions winter:

Mark 13:
17 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter
19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.

It is a serious sin for a Jew to ride on an ass on the Sabbath. According to Talmudic law, a Jew was not supposed to travel more than about half a mile on the Sabbath. There is a rabbinical story about Chanina, the nephew of Rabbi Joshua, who forgot his religious obligations and rode an ass in Capernaum during the Sabbath. He went to his uncle the rabbi for advice. The rabbi told him to move to a Jewish community in Babylon (Mesopotamia) where they did not know about his crime.

An apostate Jew may have been fired, boycotted or disinherited by an Orthodox Jewish community. Divorces occurred after religious disputes. The apostles and early believers were mainly Jewish and depended on their being able to do business in Jewish communities. Paul was going to synagogues to teach before church groups formed.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Why can't it be right?
It seems that by your comment about "thousands of years later" you are interpreting "the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven" and "coming on the clouds" as His second coming. Am I correct?

You may be missing Matthew 24:34 that says,
Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

Good post.

The word "parousia" is only mentioned in Matthew 24 of the Gospels, and that 4 times...[the rest are in the Epistles]

Here are the 3 different forms of that greek word:

parousiaV <3952> Mentioned 6 times. Matt 24:3; Philippians 1:26; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8; James 5:7; 2 Peter 3:4
Parousia <3952> Mentioned 15 times. Matt 24:27, 37, 39; 1 Corinthians 15:23, 16:17; 2 Corinthians 7:6,7, 10:10; Philippians 2:12; 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 3:13, 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:9; James 5:8, 1 John 2:28
parousian <3952> Mentioned 3 Times: 1 thessalonians 4:15; 2 Peter 1:16; 2 Peter 3:12

Peter and James shows the full end of all things happens at that "parousia" of Matthew 24.
and this was spoken well before the decimation of Jerusalem and the OC Levitical Temple and Sanctuary:

1448. eggizo eng-id'-zo from 1451; to make near, i.e. (reflexively) approach:--approach, be at hand, come (draw) near, be (come, draw) nigh.

1 Peter 4:7
Of all-things/pantwn <3956> yet the End has drawn nigh/hggiken <1448>;
be sane then! and be sober! into the prayers,

James 5:8
be patient! and stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has drawn nigh/hggiken <1448>;

 

[claninja]

What if the period of tribulation extends until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled? Is it possible that tribulation gets worse near the end of the time period?

Doesn't the great tribulation only last for a time, times, and half a time or ~42 months? The Jewish-Roman war started in about mid 66 ad and the temple was then destroyed in 70ad (about 42 months). Was Israel's power scattered after the temple was destroyed? I would say so.
Daniel 12: 7 After a time, times, and a half, and at the completion of the scattering of the power of the holy people, finished are all these (includes great tribulation)

This would match revelation's "nations/gentiles trampling Jerusalem for 42 months"
Revelation 11:2 and the court that is without the sanctuary leave out, and thou mayest not measure it, because it was given to the nations, and the holy city they shall tread down forty-two months;

But this all depends if a time, times, and half a time actually mean ~42 months. If it means 2000+ years, then a solid case can be made that the great tribulation lasts a long time.

However, this also means that people written in the book have been escaping for the last 2000 years.
Daniel 12:1 such as hath not been since there hath been a nation till that time, and at that time do thy people escape, every one who is found written in the book

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What is the reason Jesus is telling the Jews to pray their flight doesn't happen on a sabbath, which would be between Friday evening thru Saturday evening?

Matthew 24:
19 But woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days!
20 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on a sabbath:
21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.

Mark only mentions winter:

Mark 13:
17 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter
19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.

My understanding is that how far a person could travel on the Sabbath was limited. But that no longer affects us. Probably none of us live in Jerusalem anyway.

 

[DavidPT]

Good post.

The word "parousia" is only mentioned in Matthew 24 of the Gospels, and that 4 times...[the rest are in the Epistles]

Here are the 3 different forms of that greek word:

parousiaV <3952> Mentioned 6 times. Matt 24:3; Philippians 1:26; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8; James 5:7; 2 Peter 3:4
Parousia <3952> Mentioned 15 times. Matt 24:27, 37, 39; 1 Corinthians 15:23, 16:17; 2 Corinthians 7:6,7, 10:10; Philippians 2:12; 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 3:13, 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:9; James 5:8, 1 John 2:28
parousian <3952> Mentioned 3 Times: 1 thessalonians 4:15; 2 Peter 1:16; 2 Peter 3:12

Peter and James shows the full end of all things happens at that "parousia" of Matthew 24.
and this was spoken well before the decimation of Jerusalem and the OC Levitical Temple and Sanctuary:

1448. eggizo eng-id'-zo from 1451; to make near, i.e. (reflexively) approach:--approach, be at hand, come (draw) near, be (come, draw) nigh.

1 Peter 4:7
Of all-things/pantwn <3956> yet the End has drawn nigh/hggiken <1448>;
be sane then! and be sober! into the prayers,

James 5:8
be patient! and stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has drawn nigh/hggiken <1448>;

Maybe a good post to you, but I myself like to think things through a little more before coming to any final conclusions about something.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming(parousia) of the Son of man be.

Notice something here though.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming(parousia):
9 Even him, whose coming(parousia) is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

These 2 verses in 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9 aid us in determining the coming in Matthew 24:27 and the timing of that coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:9 indicates it is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.


What working of of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders?

How about this one for one?

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.

So wherever one places the coming meant in 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9, that is where they should place the coming in Matthew 24:27.


And since not even Preterists likely deny the coming meant in 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9 is meaning the 2nd coming, Preterists then must conclude Matthew 24:27 is referring to the 2nd coming based on 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9, and that it is after the working of satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Obviously the trib of those days in verse 29 are referring to Matthew 24:21. That makes the coming in verse 30 meaning after the great trib, and also after the working of satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, since that working of satan occurs during the time of the great trib, and not after the time of the GT instead.

 

[mmksparbud]

Has anyone ever considered that Jesus, rather than actually praying for something, was simply trying to express the seriousness of what He was saying? To express just what the conditions would be like in a way the listeners could understand and relate to?

He was talking about the last days for the old covenant with Israel, the days leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem and what those days would be like...

When sharing with, say, a Muslim, the message of salvation, You would speak differently than you would to a cultural Christian who has left the faith. Different understandings of God, of scripture, of the world around them cause an absolute necessity to emphasise different things about faith in Christ Jesus leading to salvation.

The same thought process would have been the case during the Olivet Discourse. He was speaking to Jews, with a Jewish understanding of the world. That means He wouldn't need to express the distance in say, miles, so much as in terms of Sabbath travel. This may have been similar to a Hillbilly saying "You better pray to God you can run til your blue in the face and still keep on running because your life depends on it!"

In short, that may have been a means to express His point - they'll have to go far far away to stay safe.

What we know for a fact, is that the Jewish Christians DID in fact escape Jerusalem in plenty of time to reach Pella safely.. and those who didn't belong to Jesus, never left and died in the siege.

What Jesus did, was express the importance for His people to heed the danger they would be in, and they did just that. Praise God.

I don't believe we can take as exact literal every word spoken by Jesus, we have to look at the point He was trying to get across to best understand what He was saying. And here, the point beong discussed was one concerning travelling to safety prior to the destruction of Jerusalem..

Not whether or not we'd still need to be following the law of Moses after He was crucified. For that question the topic would have been approached differently.

Then He would not have said it they way He did. He was not known to suffer from a lack of saying the right thing at the right time. He chose His words carefully. His were the words that created a world. But maybe you don't take those words literally either. Nobody follows the law of Moses anymore, those were nailed to the cross. The laws that Jesus wrote with His own finger are the laws of God and were never done away with. Those commandments were kept in the ark, the law of Moses was kept outside the ark.

 

[claninja]

What is the reason Jesus is telling the Jews to pray their flight doesn't happen on a sabbath, which would be between Friday evening thru Saturday evening?

Matthew 24:
19 But woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days!
20 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on a sabbath:
21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.

Mark only mentions winter:

Mark 13:
17 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter
19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.

If Paul, in Colossians 2:16-17, told the church not let anyone judge them in regards to the sabbath, as the sabbath was only a shadow of Christ, why would Jesus tell them to pray their flight wasn’t on the sabbath?

Were the Jewish Christians still following the old covenant law (sabbath), and this would be a problem for them?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If Paul, in Colossians 2:16-17, told the church not let anyone judge them in regards to the sabbath, as the sabbath was only a shadow of Christ, why would Jesus tell them to pray their flight wasn’t on the sabbath?

Yahweh through Yahshua through the appointed messenger apostle Paul
did not breathe His Word referring to the 7th day sabbath which was never in question.
(I think)
Other sabbaths (which there were several) were what was His Word regarding.

Were the Jewish Christians still following the sabbath, and this would be a problem for them?

"Following Jesus", honoring the Father, honoring TORAH as Jesus always does, (i.e. not as if "following" the 7th day sabbath, but Jesus, as He Lives, so we also live) ......
All the Ekklesia immersed in Jesus' Name, yes.

 

[mmksparbud]

You can throw in an LOL, and then ignore 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Galatians 3:16-29, and Galatians 4:24-31, and Hebrews 8:13, and Hebrews 12:18, in an attempt to make the doctrine of the Judaisers work.

We see in the verse below that the 10 commandments are the Sinai Covenant.

Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

.................................

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

I addressed those verses, perhaps you need to reread what I wrote. The 4th commandment was instituted at creation week, long before any Jew. He wrote them on stone to indicate their permanence. Jesus is very careful with His words. The covenant was with the Jews, but the 4th commandment was instituted at the very beginning and was hallowed by God
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

The original word is not rest but ceased.
2 and~he~will~much~FINISH(Verb) (וַיְכַל / wai'khal) Elohiym (אֱלֹהִים / e'lo'him) in~the~DAY (בַּיּוֹם / ba'yom) the~SEVENTH (הַשְּׁבִיעִי / hash'vi'i) BUSINESS~him (מְלַאכְתּוֹ / mê'lakh'to) WHICH (אֲשֶׁר / a'sher) he~did~DO(Verb) (עָשָׂה / a'sah) and~he~will~CEASE(Verb) (וַיִּשְׁבֹּת / wai'yish'bot) in~the~DAY (בַּיּוֹם / ba'yom) the~SEVENTH (הַשְּׁבִיעִי / hash'vi'i) from~ALL (מִכָּל / mi'kol) BUSINESS~him (מְלַאכְתּוֹ / mê'lakh'to) WHICH (אֲשֶׁר / a'sher) he~did~DO(Verb) (עָשָׂה / a'sah)

and Elohiym finished in the seventh day his business which he did, and he ceased in the seventh day from all his business which he did,
http://www.mechanical-translation.org/mtt/G2.html

 

[mkgal1]

Yes, and no.

I'm sorry where's the "no" part in that (I'm going to need your help with your explanation)?

 

[mkgal1]

Were the Jewish Christians still following the old covenant law (sabbath), and this would be a problem for them?

Maybe not the followers of the Way....but I'm presume the other Jewish people were observing the old covenant law (so the gates of the city would be closed).