Mathematics

[The_Horses_Boy]

A common beleif is that God created everyone and he knows them even before they are born. He know what they will do.

If you beleive that God created everything, is all knowing and knows all that will happen, then is it sensible that we are predestined? God has created all and knows all that will happen. He knows if we will accept him before he creates us. Isn't this, in essence, predestination?

I am young and trying to figure these different things out. Is it possible for free will and predetermination, if God knows all?

 

[Osiris]

I am young and trying to figure these different things out. Is it possible for free will and predetermination, if God knows all?

how would you define free will?

 

[Merlin]

Knowledge and causality are different.

I know my car will start if I go out, insert the key, turn the key, etc.
But the car is not started by my having the knowledge that it will start, I must do something to cause it to start.

God knows what I will do (knowledge) but He does not force my actions (causality).

 

[The_Horses_Boy]

I would define free will as choice.

Knowledge and causality are different.

I know my car will start if I go out, insert the key, turn the key, etc.
But the car is not started by my having the knowledge that it will start, I must do something to cause it to start.

God knows what I will do (knowledge) but He does not force my actions (causality).

My idea of "mathematics" comes into play if you beleive that God is all-powerful, all-knowing and created everything. A mathematical example would be that if a car is heading North at 12m/s and another car is hit by it while moving West at 2m/s, you can calculate what will happen. God created you and the enviorment around you. He knows what will happen if you creates you in a certain place or in a certain way. He knows what you will do before he creates you.

So God does not force your actions, but if he creates you and everything around you then (theoretically, mathematically) he creates what acts upon you. So it isn't a forced thing - it's a created thing... Is this coming clear, or am I just rambling?

 

[nuclear]

Knowledge and causality are different.

I know my car will start if I go out, insert the key, turn the key, etc.
But the car is not started by my having the knowledge that it will start, I must do something to cause it to start.

God knows what I will do (knowledge) but He does not force my actions (causality).

That is an incorrect analogy. You deduce from past experience that the car would most probably start. God, on the other hand, supposedly knows what will happen without a shadow of doubt. It is impossible for you take a choice that God didn't know you'll make. In other words, there isn't a valid reason for you to exist since God already knew that you'd go to heaven or hell and thus could have sent you there to begin with. He already forced your actions when he created you.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

That is an incorrect analogy. You deduce from past experience that the car would most probably start. God, on the other hand, supposedly knows what will happen without a shadow of doubt. It is impossible for you take a choice that God didn't know you'll make. In other words, there isn't a valid reason for you to exist since God already knew that you'd go to heaven or hell and thus could have sent you there to begin with. He already forced your actions when he created you.

He didn't force us to do anything. He merely knows it. We have the option to turn from our ways and repent, but folks decide not to. God knows this, but that doesn't equal Him controling or choosing it for us or forcing us to choose it.

 

[Asimov]

A common beleif is that God created everyone and he knows them even before they are born. He know what they will do.

If you beleive that God created everything, is all knowing and knows all that will happen, then is it sensible that we are predestined? God has created all and knows all that will happen. He knows if we will accept him before he creates us. Isn't this, in essence, predestination?

I am young and trying to figure these different things out. Is it possible for free will and predetermination, if God knows all?

Libertarian Free Will cannot co-exist with an omniscient God.

Libertarian Free Will centers around the idea that if free will exists, at point t we would be able to refrain from making choice x.

So if God knows we will choose x at point t, then it is a fact that we will choose x at point t. If we cannot refrain from choosing x at point t, then libertarian free will does not exist.

The reason for this is that God knowing we will choose x at point t is a fact of the past, and it would be logically fallacious to say that the present can affect the past as that would imply backward causality.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

God knowing what we will do, is knowing the future...and we decide that future, God merely just knows what choices we will make of our own will.

 

[Im_A]

A common beleif is that God created everyone and he knows them even before they are born. He know what they will do.

If you beleive that God created everything, is all knowing and knows all that will happen, then is it sensible that we are predestined? God has created all and knows all that will happen. He knows if we will accept him before he creates us. Isn't this, in essence, predestination?

I am young and trying to figure these different things out. Is it possible for free will and predetermination, if God knows all?

i think in this idea of God being all-knowing, there is no way for us to understand this. we live in a 24 hour time frame. God "lives" in a place that isn't controlled in that manner.

nobody can logically tie free-will into predestination with God. cause the main problem comes when which will is ultimately more powerful...predestination-God's Will is more powerful, free-will-humanity's will is more powerful than a supposed "omnipotent" being's will. the issues only seem to come out, when certain concerns come about.

for example, if predestination is true, then why did He do the things He did? if God knew that people were going to come to Him, there would be no use for the Gospel to even be given us, because everything was done just fine before Jesus came to this earth.

if free-will is true, then humanity's will is more powerful than God's, cause we know what God's Will is. imagine, a sappy god sending his son to earth. having all the power on his behalf, but letting free-will forever take his beloved creation away. inevitably, the choice/power is on humanity, not on God to actually save. and i don't know about anyone else, but that's a pathetic description of a supposed just, omnipotent, all knowing God, because inevitably, i wonder if the gift of the Gospel was half hearted, cause He knew that people would reject it.

so i personally believe that free-will and pre-destination are a bit off. both having point of truth, but not coming to the full circle of truth.

just my 2 cents.

 

[Asimov]

God knowing what we will do, is knowing the future...and we decide that future, God merely just knows what choices we will make of our own will.

Lilly...try a little harder with the rebuttals, please? All you've said is "nu-uh!"

1. God is omniscient.
2. Our choices are predetermined.
3. Free Will is the ability to refrain from doing x at point t.
4. If our choices are predetermined, we cannot refrain from doing x at point t.
C. Free Will does not exist.

This is what I've said. Free Will does not exist...that means we don't get to choose.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Lilly...try a little harder with the rebuttals, please? All you've said is "nu-uh!"

1. God is omniscient.
2. Our choices are predetermined.
3. Free Will is the ability to refrain from doing x at point t.
4. If our choices are predetermined, we cannot refrain from doing x at point t.
C. Free Will does not exist.

This is what I've said. Free Will does not exist...that means we don't get to choose.

They aren't determined, just known. It's not a path (a set thing of actions pre chosen) that we follow (as you are putting it in so many words) because we make/choose the path (action), God simply knows that path that we make. It's that simple.

 

[nuclear]

He didn't force us to do anything. He merely knows it. We have the option to turn from our ways and repent, but folks decide not to. God knows this, but that doesn't equal Him controling or choosing it for us or forcing us to choose it.

No, we do not have that option. God created Billy-the-[insert any religion other than Christianity or lack thereof here] for the sole purpose of Billy going to hell. God knew that Billy would go to hell when he created Billy. Billy could not make any choice in his life that would change that. Billy could not go to heaven because God knew that he wouldn't. It is impossible for Billy to make a different choice than the one God knew he would make when he created him. Otherwise God would not be omniscient.

 

[:æ:]

He didn't force us to do anything. He merely knows it. We have the option to turn from our ways and repent, but folks decide not to. God knows this, but that doesn't equal Him controling or choosing it for us or forcing us to choose it.

Let me try to explain this to you.

In order for it to be true that future events are omnisciently known, the future must be set. It is inconsistent to suppose that the future can be undetermined and known at the same time. If God knows I will end up with option A, then I must end up with option A, and there is no chance I will end up with option B. Does that make sense to you?

Now, it is also supposed that God created reality. Not only that, God created the reality that He already foreknew He would create. Instantaneously God knew everything about that reality, past, present, and future -- all prior to the existence of a single atom, human or galaxy. He knew the origin of everything, and He knew the end of everything. All of reality was created at once, then. All of reality was decided at once.

So who decided what God would know? I feel safe assuming that no man decided the content of God's knowledge seeing as the content of God's knowledge supposedly existed before men did. That must mean that God decided the content of His own knowledge. That is certainly more consistent with the idea that God is the creator of reality, but it has some serious implications. If God knows the outcome of an event and God decides what He knows, then God decides the outcome of the event.

THAT is why God's foreknowledge is incompatible with free will.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

No, we do not have that option. God created Billy-the-[insert any religion other than Christianity or lack thereof here] for the sole purpose of Billy going to hell. God knew that Billy would go to hell when he created Billy. Billy could not make any choice in his life that would change that. Billy could not go to heaven because God knew that he wouldn't. It is impossible for Billy to make a different choice than the one God knew he would make when he created him. Otherwise God would not be omniscient.

That is false. The fact of that completly goes against the Bible and God Himself. He wants all the be saved, so why would He want some to go to hell and preplan that and create us just for that? Doesn't work and goes against the Bible and God's character and ways. God also told us to choose life, asks us to and warns us and disciplines us just so we can choose rt. God won't do that if we don't have the option to do otherwise. We do choose.

The fact is, we have a choice to make, God just knows it, but it isn't like it's preplanned. The problem is you are viewing it as preplanned, but God just knows the free choices.

Also, if we are going by the assumption that God is all powerful, is that not possible?

 

[nuclear]

Lily, I'll make it really simple for you.

There are two pills. A red one and a blue one. You need to make a choice and take just one. Does God know which one you are going to chose? Yes or no, very simple.

 

[Asimov]

They aren't determined, just known. It's not a path (a set thing of actions pre chosen) that we follow (as you are putting it in so many words) because we make/choose the path (action), God simply knows that path that we make. It's that simple.

No, Lilly. If it's known, it's determined.

You saying that our choices are predetermined through our choices is circular.

God knowing the path that we will make means that it is determined. We cannot refrain from choosing path x, therefore it is determined.

 

[Asimov]

The fact is, we have a choice to make, God just knows it, but it isn't like it's preplanned. The problem is you are viewing it as preplanned, but God just knows the free choices.

Lilly, you are contradicting yourself.

If God knows that we will choose x at point t, then it is a fact that we will choose x at point t.

If we cannot refrain from choosing x at point t, then there is no free will. We do not choose.

If we can refrain from choosing x at point t, then God is not omniscient.

If God knows that we will refrain from choosing x at point t, then it is determined that we will refrain from choosing x at point t, and we are unable to choose x at point t.

Also, if we are going by the assumption that God is all powerful, is that not possible?

God cannot do that which goes against what is necessarily true. 2+2=4 is not dependant upon God or anyone. It just is and always will be.

A=A is necessarily true and cannot be false. IOW, God cannot do that which is logically impossible.

 

[Osiris]

They aren't determined, just known. It's not a path (a set thing of actions pre chosen) that we follow (as you are putting it in so many words) because we make/choose the path (action), God simply knows that path that we make. It's that simple.

I thought freewill was something like this:

If we could go back into the past, we could choose differently.

right now, we are in the past, if God knows what we will do/choose... then we can't choose differently than what he already knows.

 

[The_Horses_Boy]

God created Billy-the-[insert any religion other than Christianity or lack thereof here] for the sole purpose of Billy going to hell.

Are you God? Who are you to say what God's purpose is?

 

[Asimov]

Are you God? Who are you to say what God's purpose is?

It's simple basic reasoning, Horsy.