Mathematical Formulas In Nature - Absolute Proof Of Creation

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Is that a relationship with a pluton?

AV's definitely pining for Pluto.

 

[Ophiolite]

If only you'd deliberately misspelled it as Plutonic...

Well, I deliberately spelt it correctly, thinking that the plutonic/platonic play would be obvious, else there was no point in referencing the character of the relationship. However, I should have learned my lesson after the incident wherein a friend and I were explaining to another our plan to form a comedy duo. His response "That's certainly original. A comedy duo with two straight men."

 

[Joseph G]

The problem with this line of argument (Of necessity I use the term loosely here) is that to refute it I would have to ignore forum rules that prohibit non-believers from attacking the Chrisitan faith. That's often a bit frustrating. The closest I can get is to note that arguing that what you believe is true, because you have come to believe it is true, tends not to carry much weight with people who are not deeply moved by what you believe. And, in my own case, since I don't believe anything it has zero chance of success.

That's not the experience of this former skeptic, nor of hundreds whose testimonies I have witnessed over the years. God's creation in concert with His Word - spoken and written - have won souls beyond counting going on ~ 6000 years now. As the Lord Himself says, His Word has and will not return to Him void.

You have avoided the straightforward natural explanation of plant growth provided by, I think, @Hans Blaster .

"Natural" is no explanation at all.

Or, to put it another way, you have ignored the point made by @SelfSim that the formula is simply a way to describe what happens, not the thing that causes what happens. That in itself pretty well undermines Hovind's argument.

No, the formula is a law. Laws are designed. Would you have fallen to your death off a cliff if you had yet to discover the law of gravity?

I do hope you do not mean that as it sounds, for that comes across as one of the nastiest, cynical statements I have read here for a long time.

You are certainly over-dramatizing my response. And if you believe that is nasty, this must be your first day of posting in this forum.

Hans and I both wear big boy pants, but thanks for the advice... We got it.

As I pointed out above, Hovind's argument is contradicted by the fact that it is mistaken and irrelevant.

Do provide detail, then.

I recommend you join the najority of Christians and the majority of all humans who simply marvel at the intricacies and beauty of nature

Way ahead of you. Already a joyful part of that majority. You haven't read any of my posts, have you?

Case in point:

Spectacular Presentation Of The Wonders Of God's Creation

Spectacular Presentation Of The Wonders Of God's Creation The natural universe reveals God's power, majesty, wisdom, and creative Genius. The human conscience reveals God's justice and man's need for redemption. Finally, Jesus Christ is the ultimate revelation of God's love for us. Stars...

www.christianforums.com

and stop futile attempts to you use it to proves some thing that matches your beliefs. If faith is important to you, why this desire for proof?

You gather proof to support your faith, we gather proof to support our faith. You proselytize, so do we. Fair is fair. Welcome to open society! While it lasts...

biblegateway.com

[Note to all: I include the link as an invitation to do your own research]

 

[Joseph G]

I don't care about your religion.

As is your prerogative. But considering how much it is protested when we get your ever-elusive theory wrong, please be equally considerate. I do not preach a religion, but a relationship. If you aren't aware of the difference, I would be thrilled to elaborate!

biblegateway.com

 

[Hans Blaster]

As is your prerogative. But considering how much it is protested when we get your ever-elusive theory wrong, please be equally considerate. I do not preach a religion, but a relationship. If you aren't aware of the difference, I would be thrilled to elaborate!

Of course you preach religion. You do virtually no discussion of science and when challenge you start spewing theology and scripture:

biblegateway.com

If this mathematical proof meant anything to you, why do you not discuss the mathematical aspects of it further? Go back to that conversation and we can be done with these distractions.

 

[AV1611VET]

My want is that the religious keeps their Bible out of science.

Yes, I know.

Urania forbid her science should be told that that "fetus" is a "child in the womb."

 

[BCP1928]

Then you really have little to contribute to the discussion, eh?



A "movement" begun ~ 6000 years ago, when Adam recognized His Creator. And has not diminished to this day, despite man's attempts to pretend God away and suppress His Word, so as to remain himself in the dark. Because he loves his sin so much so as to condemn anything or anyone who disrupts his efforts to rationalize it away. And encourage others to join in. A kind of twisted, humanistic evangelism, it is.


And yet you just... can't... help... responding. Better watch that blood pressure!

Jesus loves you, Hans!

biblegateway.com

It seems to me that you are laboring under two assumptions:
1. That your argument proves the existence of God.
2. That proving the existence of God will have any effect at all on the theory of evolution.

You don't seem interested in discussing #1 and #2 is false.

 

[Joseph G]

Of course you preach religion.

You obviously don't know the difference between religion and a relationship with Jesus, do you?

You do virtually no discussion of science and when challenge you start spewing theology and scripture.

Science is being more than abundantly discussed in the vid, which you won't watch. So please... no sweeping generalizations.

For those interested, following is the full vid with transcript provided to address (I'll provide in a new post in time). The pause button works really well. AV's segment of the debate runs from 28:24 to 31:39. Surely there's one serious advocate of your theory willing to engage in specifics?

If this mathematical proof meant anything to you, why do you not discuss the mathematical aspects of it further? Go back to that conversation and we can be done with these distractions.

I won't repeat. We are at an impasse because your reply, imho, totally fails to address the point made. Why belabor into perpetuity? Go in peace, already, Hans. I hear you. The horse won't get any deader.

 

[Joseph G]

It seems to me that you are laboring under two assumptions:
1. That your argument proves the existence of God.
2. That proving the existence of God will have any effect at all on the theory of evolution.

You don't seem interested in discussing #1 and #2 is false.

And it seems I was addressing Hans. I'm not gonna swat all flies to my every response. You want to engage me directly, come up with a tangible response.

 

[Joseph G]

My want is that the religious keeps their Bible out of science.

But hey won't.

Great. Pull your evolutionary religion out of our schools and away from our children first.

 

[BCP1928]

And it seems I was addressing Hans. I'm not gonna swat all flies to my every response. You want to engage me directly, come up with a tangible response.

That there is order in the natural world is beyond doubt. That order can be modeled mathematically. Now, the question is, is that order described by the mathematics, or is the mathematics the order itself? That is an age-old philosophical question which is still controversial, but it really has nothing to do with the existence of God. Or, how does God order the universe? By mathematics or by some other way which mathematics (and scientific theories generally) only describes?

 

[AV1611VET]

Or, how does God order the universe? By mathematics or by some other way which mathematics (and scientific theories generally) only describes?

Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

This is why God can give commands to mother nature, and mother nature responds immediately and completely.

Decide for yourself if these are good examples of Psalm 83:15

Psalm 83:15 So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm.

30 October 1991: The Halloween Monster, a.k.a. The Perfect Storm, strikes the U.S. amid the "land-for-peace" Madrid peace talks; President Bush's ocean-side home destroyed.

23 August 1992: President Bush moves Madrid talks to U.S. soil; that very day, Hurricane Andrew devastates southern Florida.

16 January 1994: President Clinton meets with Syrian President Hafez Assad to discuss more "land for peace" arrangements; less than 24 hours later, a 6.9 earthquake pulverized southern California.

1 September 1993: President Clinton announces a meeting with Arafat for the Oslo peace accords, to be held on 13 September; after a week of meandering in the Atlantic Ocean, Hurricane Emily hits North Carolina on that very day.

21 January 1998: while waiting to meet with Arafat at the White House, President Clinton's sex scandal breaks out.

27 September 1998: Arafat is meeting with the president in Washington; Hurricane Georges hits Alabama and stalls. The hurricane stalls until Arafat leaves and then it dissipates. Parts of Alabama declared a disaster area.

17 October 1998: Arafat comes to the Wye Plantation meeting; incredible rains fall on Texas, which cause record flooding. Parts of Texas declared a disaster area.

3 September 1999: Secretary of State Albright meets with Arafat in Israel; Hurricane Dennis comes ashore on this very day after weeks of changing course in the Atlantic Ocean.

12-26 July 2000: Arafat at the Camp David meetings. Powerful droughts throughout the country. Forest fires explode in West into uncontrollable fires. By the end of August, 7 million acres are burnt.

9 November 2000, two days after the presidential election: Arafat meets with President Clinton at the White House to try and salvage the peace process; worst election crisis in over 100 years occurs.

 

[Hans Blaster]

You obviously don't know the difference between religion and a relationship with Jesus, do you?

Whiff!

Religion is the thing I used to be in. A "relationship with Jesus" is a concept no Christian I ever discussed religion with during my time in the faith ever took seriously. Religion is a thing I can clearly see happens and experience. A "relationship with Jesus" does not make any sense.

Science is being more than abundantly discussed in the vid, which you won't watch. So please... no sweeping generalizations.

I don't know how the other responded to Kent. They probably tried to use science. But I'm not interested in them talking about science, rather I want to hear what you have to say on THE TOPIC YOU CREATED THIS THREAD ABOUT. Give me some Fibinocci or go home.

For those interested, following is the full vid with transcript provided to address (I'll provide in a new post in time). The pause button works really well. AV's segment of the debate runs from 28:24 to 31:39. Surely there's one serious advocate of your theory willing to engage in specifics?

There is no point in listening to Kent lie. I've heard many of his lies before. I also have heard him repeat lies. He is an irrelevancy.

I won't repeat. We are at an impasse because your reply, imho, totally fails to address the point made. Why belabor into perpetuity? Go in peace, already, Hans. I hear you. The horse won't get any deader.

"Look at the integer sequence in plants" = God. That was the point you made. If you are ill prepared to discuss it, then you are probably right. Nothing more you say can be of use.

 

[AV1611VET]

"Look at the integer sequence in plants" = God. That was the point you made. If you are ill prepared to discuss it, then you are probably right. Nothing more you say can be of use.

I have to admit, you approach Christianity far worse than I approach science.

At least I'm willing to discuss science to a point.

Two things that are major differences between me and you:

1. E=mc² ... your turn now. Let's see you post a Bible verse.

2. I assume you have me on IGNORE. I, on the other hand, don't put people on ignore for using science. I actually listen to them and try to address what they say the best I can. (Okay, with some exceptions.)

This is why I have a lot of respect for Warden's posts, despite his attitude towards me.

 

[sjastro]

I know one shouldn't cast aspersions on Hovind's character or engage in strawman fallacies but it speaks volumes about YECists scraping the bottom of the barrel using this character as a focal point for their arguments.

Firstly he is a convicted criminal.

Year	Offense	Description	Outcome
2006	Federal Tax-Related Crimes	Convicted on 58 counts, including 12 counts of willful failure to collect and pay over federal income and FICA taxes, 45 counts of structuring financial transactions to evade reporting requirements, and 1 count of obstructing and impeding the administration of internal revenue laws. These charges were related to his operation of Creation Science Evangelism and Dinosaur Adventure Land in Pensacola, Florida. Hovind argued that his employees were "missionaries" and thus exempt from taxes, a claim rejected by the court.	Sentenced to 10 years in federal prison and ordered to pay over $600,000 in restitution.
2015	Contempt of Court	While serving his sentence, Hovind was found guilty of contempt of court for filing documents disputing the government's right to sell his seized property. He was acquitted on related fraud and conspiracy charges.	Initially found guilty; however, the conviction was later overturned by the judge, granting a motion for judgment of acquittal.
2021	Third-Degree Domestic Assault	In September 2021, Hovind was convicted of third-degree domestic assault against his third wife, Cindi Lincoln, in Alabama. The incident involved Hovind intentionally throwing Lincoln to the ground, causing bodily harm.	Sentenced to 30 days in jail for domestic violence.

Secondly he is a academic fraudster, none of his qualifications are recognized and are unaccredited.

Degree	Institution	Year Awarded	Accreditation Status	Notes
Bachelor of Religious Education	Midwestern Baptist College	1974	Unaccredited	Midwestern Baptist College is an unaccredited religious institution.
Master's in Christian Education	Patriot University	1988	Unaccredited	Patriot University (now Patriot Bible University) is an unaccredited correspondence school.
Ph.D. in Christian Education	Patriot University	1991	Unaccredited	The institution is considered a diploma mill by critics.

To draw an analogy it is like Jack the Ripper writing a treatise on human anatomy.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Secondly he is a academic fraudster, none of his qualifications are recognized and are unaccredited.

Degree	Institution	Year Awarded	Accreditation Status	Notes
Bachelor of Religious Education	Midwestern Baptist College	1974	Unaccredited	Midwestern Baptist College is an unaccredited religious institution.
Master's in Christian Education	Patriot University	1988	Unaccredited	Patriot University (now Patriot Bible University) is an unaccredited correspondence school.
Ph.D. in Christian Education	Patriot University	1991	Unaccredited	The institution is considered a diploma mill by critics.

The Patriot University campus:

Kent Hovind's doctoral dissertations

Kent Hovind promotes himself as Dr. Kent Hovind or Dr. Dino. Prior to his 58 felony convictions and ten-year prison sentence, Hovind received a Ph.D. from Patriot Bible University, an unaccredited Christian college. Because of Hovind's use of the title of "Doctor" based on a degree from an...

rationalwiki.org

To draw an analogy it is like Jack the Ripper writing a treatise in human anatomy.

Genl. Jack Ripper is now in charge of health in the US.

 

[AV1611VET]

I know one shouldn't cast aspersions on Hovind's character or engage in strawman fallacies but it speaks volumes about YECists scraping the bottom of the barrel using this character as a focal point for their arguments.

I wouldn't talk.

What your "Father of Evolution" did is banned in 24 states here.

 

[Shemjaza]

I wouldn't talk.

What your "Father of Evolution" did is banned in 24 states here.

The cousin thing?

 

[sjastro]

Genl. Jack Ripper is now in charge of health in the US.

General Jack D. Ripper was the insane general in Dr Strangelove one of my favourite movies.

 

[AV1611VET]

The cousin thing?

Correct.