Masturbation

[RMDY]

"Shall we sin that grace may abound?"
You're accusing me of exactly what the legalists accused Paul of, as I suspected you would.

Do you believe that you're saved by faith in Christ or by observing the law?

Asking a rhetorical question right back at you is not an accusation. This is the third time you have misinterpreted my words. How did I accuse you? Do you not like how I threw a rhetorical question at you to make my point?

I said that "I am not talking about the Law of Moses, I am talking about using freedom to partake in sin. Shall you use your freedom to partake in beastiality or incest?"

You avoided my question: Is it legalism to speak out against adultery, drunkenness, fornication, and murder? Is it legalism to speak out against incest and beastiality?

 

[RMDY]

I don't understand this either -after you're married you can abandon self-control? It only applies to unmarried people?
Masturbation is not something that only happens with unmarried people by any means.

Also, you realize that most Christians refuse to marry without love being involved, mostly because it says things like "husbands, love your wives". That's why quoting "it's better to marry than to burn" as an assumed preventative for masturbation seems so facile.

I'm going to separate this post into points in response to you:

1) "...after your married you can abandon self control?"
Certainly a person should exert some self-control and be discreet about how they go about having sex with their husband/wife. But in self-control outside marriage, one is to be discreet and not fornicate.

2) "It only applies to unmarried people?"
Self-control should be applied in general for the christian. Here is a good example. When a person has not reached the age to drink, he is to be self-controlled and not drink liquor (that is the public's idea I think). But after he has reached the age to drink (19 in Canada, 21 in states), that person may drink alchohal, but it should be self-controlled.

There is a difference in the context of not being able to drink and being able to drink and how self-control is applied to each of them.


3) "Masturbation is not something that only happens with unmarried people by any means."

Within a marriage it would be foreplay, wouldn't it?


4) "Also, you realize that most Christians refuse to marry without love being involved, mostly because it says things like "husbands, love your wives".

Very true, but who are you to judge people who marry without at first being in love with their partner? But one can still love them sensually and affectionately if one is brought up that way (arranged marriage for example) in the sense that their marriages are arranged and they are strangers at first. I think asian cultures have a tendency to have arranged marriages, and during Roman times too.

6) "That's why quoting "it's better to marry than to burn" as an assumed preventative for masturbation seems so facile."

In honesty, I am more concerned with the our bodies being God's temple than that quote. It is better to marry than to burn, but one is called to be self-controlled, and in the context of our bodies being God's temple, can you blame me for being concerned about that context? Perhaps self-titilation/sexual gratification may be dishonorable?

Um, here's a good example: I've heard that sometimes men has been able to use their own mouth for certain things that would normally be impossible. I won't go into it because that would grant me a warning from the mods, but yeah, I think you know what I'm talking about. Don't you think such a thing would be dishonorable to God and defiling yourself? The context of that is different from a context where a wife would do that to a man.

 

[RMDY]

Two scenarios:
Person 2 may have masturbated in the past, but scrupulously avoids it now, condemns it publicly, and, if Person 2 slips ups and "sins" again, feels condemned, prays about it, and promises never to do it again.

Indeed, but this could be applied to anything, like saying unwholesome words, joking inappropriately, losing temper/anger, complains about something, gossips, ect. How many of these things do we do? I often fall for these things even if I don't intend to....

And you can substitute "eats meat" or "drinks" or any number of things for "masturbates" in the above scenario.

Eating meat is not a sin, and neither is drinking liquor, but the context changes depending on the senario. Same with drinking. It depends on the context, so to speak.

 

[RMDY]

If it's SOO superficial, then why is sexual sin so serious in the Bible? And for that matter, seeing as it's so serious, why wouldn't masturbation be completely left out? And why would the passage in Matthew be so vague?

Interesting post. I'm wondering if there is even a hebrew word for touching yourself...

 

[RMDY]

According to Jesus, impure thoughts themselves are unavoidable, and have nothing to do with what you do or don't do.

But still you aren't to set your mind on them (hating your bro, coveting a married women, ect). I hope you get what I mean.

 

[Kencj]

Asking a rhetorical question right back at you is not an accusation. This is the third time you have misinterpreted my words. How did I accuse you? Do you not like how I threw a rhetorical question at you to make my point?

I said that "I am not talking about the Law of Moses, I am talking about using freedom to partake in sin. Shall you use your freedom to partake in beastiality or incest?"

You avoided my question: Is it legalism to speak out against adultery, drunkenness, fornication, and murder? Is it legalism to speak out against incest and beastiality?

Of course not, and you know very well it's a ridiculous question, which is why I didn't waste my time answering it. Paul's quote is his response to exactly the same kind of question you asked. It's legalism to make masturbation into a sin when the Bible doesn't, which is what I'm accusing you of.

I've asked you three times now Do you believe that you're saved by faith in Christ or by observing the law? which you have yet to answer.

 

[david_x]

If it's SOO superficial, then why is sexual sin so serious in the Bible? And for that matter, seeing as it's so serious, why wouldn't masturbation be completely left out? And why would the passage in Matthew be so vague?

Isn't all sin superficial? You steal for wealth, you have sex outside of marriage for pleasure. Will wealth or pleasure save you?

No, one really couldn't. The sex acts would make the relationship not okay in the long run... unless they abstain, which would kinda defeat the point of BEING homosexual... I mean, aren't you SEXUALLY attracted to the same sex? Not that I'd know.

That is not the point, my point is that it's not in the listed among the sins in the Bible.

 

[david_x]

According to Jesus, impure thoughts themselves are unavoidable, and have nothing to do with what you do or don't do.

That is cause to let them in? Just because one is tempted is no reason to revile in the filth. If you fall into a pit YOU GET OUT you don't sit in it.

 

[david_x]

Sorry, but you need to think more about your argument because so far this makes no sense at all.

I'm saying that when someone says don't entertain sexual thoughts, they mean you should entertain thoughts of God or his plan. Do something that builds, not destroys.

 

[Kencj]

I'm saying that when someone says don't entertain sexual thoughts, they mean you should entertain thoughts of God or his plan. Do something that builds, not destroys.

But where on earth does it say not to think about sex??
Are you saying you're incapable of thinking about sex at all unless it involves a particluar person?
And even if you were, it doesn't meet the criteria in Matt 5 as to what is adultery "in the heart", which involves the act of deliberately looking at a particular person for that purpose, as we've discussed earlier.

 

[Kencj]

That is cause to let them in? Just because one is tempted is no reason to revile in the filth. If you fall into a pit YOU GET OUT you don't sit in it.

Jesus is saying you can't avoid them, and they happen independent of anything you do. It's what Paul calls the "sinful nature", which all people have. It justifies nothing, it's just the way people are, including you and me.

But thinking about sex is no more sinful or "lust" than thinking about food is. We've covered that ground too.

 

[david_x]

But where on earth does it say not to think about sex??
Are you saying you're incapable of thinking about sex at all unless it involves a particluar person?
And even if you were, it doesn't meet the criteria in Matt 5 as to what is adultery "in the heart", which involves the act of deliberately looking at a particular person for that purpose, as we've discussed earlier.

You add a lot to my posts...
I didn't say not to think about sex, that's too broad. Don't think about sex with someone who is not your wife. The first look is not a sin, the second is. Dwelling on an ill thought brings naught but ill.

 

[david_x]

Jesus is saying you can't avoid them, and they happen independent of anything you do. It's what Paul calls the "sinful nature", which all people have. It justifies nothing, it's just the way people are, including you and me.

But thinking about sex is no more sinful or "lust" than thinking about food is. We've covered that ground too.

There you said it, sinful nature. You just stated that it was sinful, the sin that comes from our diseased nature.

 

[RMDY]

I've asked you three times now Do you believe that you're saved by faith in Christ or by observing the law? which you have yet to answer.

I already made it clear before that we are saved by grace. But I also made it clear that we are to prove our repentance by our deeds as Paul once said (he preached this). Deeds don't save, but they prove your repentance.

 

[Kencj]

You add a lot to my posts...
I didn't say not to think about sex, that's too broad. Don't think about sex with someone who is not your wife. The first look is not a sin, the second is. Dwelling on an ill thought brings naught but ill.

What you said was "sexual thoughts", you didn't mention wives at all so I read your post correctly and I asked where on earth it says not to think sexual thoughts, which you still haven't answered.

Now you're making another statement as if it's biblical and it isn't -"The first look is not a sin, the second is." Where does it say anything like that?

Your'e so eager to pronounce things sins, who are you condemning in the end but yourself? Will God judge anyone but you by your pronouncements? You're rejecting the grace of God, which alone will save you, for legalism and condemnation, which will only alienate you from God's grace. Self-righteousness is the sin of the sinless Pharisees, who were the greatest enemies of Christ.

 

[Kencj]

I already made it clear before that we are saved by grace. But I also made it clear that we are to prove our repentance by our deeds as Paul once said (he preached this). Deeds don't save, but they prove your repentance.

Well, I'm glad to hear you say that since you don't talk as if you did at all. Equating masturbation with beastiality and murder is not the kind of thing someone who live in God's grace says. it's what someone who lives in legalism, which is the opposite of grace, says. Are you still claiming masturbation is a sin or not?

Could you please quote the verse you're referring to about Paul?

 

[david_x]

What you said was "sexual thoughts", you didn't mention wives at all so I read your post correctly and I asked where on earth it says not to think sexual thoughts, which you still haven't answered.

We were talking about temptations, so no I didn't mention that at all.

Now you're making another statement as if it's biblical and it isn't -"The first look is not a sin, the second is." Where does it say anything like that?

That would be the Matt. 5 verse.

Your'e so eager to pronounce things sins, who are you condemning in the end but yourself? Will God judge anyone but you by your pronouncements? You're rejecting the grace of God, which alone will save you, for legalism and condemnation, which will only alienate you from God's grace. Self-righteousness is the sin of the sinless Pharisees, who were the greatest enemies of Christ.

Wasn't Paul a murderer of Christians? He was forgiven, and I serve the same God so I hope to be forgiven as well.

 

[Kencj]

We were talking about temptations, so no I didn't mention that at all.

"Don't think about sex with someone who is not your wife" was your previous statement.
So in your opinion it's a sin to think about sex if you're not married, is that correct?

That would be the Matt. 5 verse.

Which as you know says nothing about first or second looks.

Wasn't Paul a murderer of Christians? He was forgiven, and I serve the same God so I hope to be forgiven as well.

But when one believes in God's grace, one fully accepts God's forgiveness, which was purchased by Christ's death 2000 years ago. It's not a future possibility, but a present reality. It means your salvation is not about what you do or don't do, but a result of your faith in Christ, who atoned for all your sins, past present and future.

 

[Kencj]

There you said it, sinful nature. You just stated that it was sinful, the sin that comes from our diseased nature.

Hello, I said "thinking about sex is no more sinful or "lust" than thinking about food is. We've covered that ground too."

Paul's phrase "sinful nature" is his, and it's only one word in greek, SARX, if I remember right, sometimes translated "the flesh" -or better (if you ask me) "human nature". The word "sinful" itself doesn't appear in the greek.

 

[david_x]

"Don't think about sex with someone who is not your wife" was your previous statement.
So in your opinion it's a sin to think about sex if you're not married, is that correct?

Oh that one, yes it would be concupiscence.

Which as you know says nothing about first or second looks.

That's rather beside the point, it still backs it up.

But when one believes in God's grace, one fully accepts God's forgiveness, which was purchased by Christ's death 2000 years ago. It's not a future possibility, but a present reality. It means your salvation is not about what you do or don't do, but a result of your faith in Christ, who atoned for all your sins, past present and future.

Good, now pick up your cross and follow Him.