Masturbation

[Zebra1552]

I'm afraid your response makes you seem rather ignorant about the Bible. Of course Jesus didn't refer to that verse because it was not written while he was on Earth.

Yeah, but if it was so important and isn't loving you'd think He'd mention it at least once...

And I've been playing devil's advocate for quite a few posts now to make a point here.


David, please keep this civil. I think I've more than adequately demonstrated that your definition of sin isn't specific and is open to interpretation. If homosexuality isn't a good enough example for you in that regard, then pick an issue. Eating, drinking, sleeping, or any other gray area. How about media consumption? Smoking? Driving aggressively?

 

[david_x]

David, please keep this civil. I think I've more than adequately demonstrated that your definition of sin isn't specific and is open to interpretation. If homosexuality isn't a good enough example for you in that regard, then pick an issue. Eating, drinking, sleeping, or any other gray area. How about media consumption? Smoking? Driving aggressively?

It is not love to eat too much when others goes hungry. It is not love to drink when someone goes thirsty. It is not love to sleep when there is God's work to be done. There is no 'gray area' to speak of. It is not love to break the laws of the land of those that God has set in place. It is not love to damage the temple of the Lord that is your body. It is not love to act in anger.

Love is patient, love is kind, etc.

 

[Zebra1552]

It is not love to eat too much when others goes hungry. It is not love to drink when someone goes thirsty. It is not love to sleep when there is God's work to be done.

Do you sleep? Do you eat? Do you drink? Then you go against your own idea of what love is. The above is merely a bunch of claims. Without backing, those claims are useless. I'm quite sure you're familiar with how discussion and debate works.

There is no 'gray area' to speak of. It is not love to break the laws of the land of those that God has set in place. It is not love to damage the temple of the Lord that is your body. It is not love to act in anger.

Love is patient, love is kind, etc.

Again, claims. If your claims are true, then where is the law for masturbation? And anyway, where is the backing for your claims? Where does it say that it is not loving to break the law? Why are we making ourselves subject to the law?

 

[david_x]

Do you sleep? Do you eat? Do you drink? Then you go against your own idea of what love is. The above is merely a bunch of claims. Without backing, those claims are useless. I'm quite sure you're familiar with how discussion and debate works.

I meant to put too much in those, I forgot. Yes I do all these things and yes I do them in excess sometimes, i'm human.

As far as backing, sleeping too much is sloth, eating or drinking too much is greed.

Again, claims. If your claims are true, then where is the law for masturbation? And anyway, where is the backing for your claims? Where does it say that it is not loving to break the law? Why are we making ourselves subject to the law?

If you think of someone in an indecent way you are not loving them, thus masturbation has it's core in hateful ways. It is not impossible to focus on something other than lust, but it is nearly impossible to keep it that way. (e.g. the only ones that could touch are the ones who are not tempted by lust.)

 

[dayhiker]

I agree that people shouldn't touch to thoughts of rape and adultery. Lust is nothing but the desire to take another's wife. I've never found it hard to not lust. I've never had a desire to take another man's wife or to rape a woman.

 

[Zebra1552]

I meant to put too much in those, I forgot. Yes I do all these things and yes I do them in excess sometimes, i'm human.

As far as backing, sleeping too much is sloth, eating or drinking too much is greed.

That's not backing, that's claims piled on claims. Claims do not satisfy me.

If you think of someone in an indecent way you are not loving them, thus masturbation has it's core in hateful ways. It is not impossible to focus on something other than lust, but it is nearly impossible to keep it that way. (e.g. the only ones that could touch are the ones who are not tempted by lust.)

For the last time, where is your backing for any of this?

 

[Dragons87]

May I butt in? I'd like to bring in Romans 14 to this matter. It has for a long time been my definition of sin.

"13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. 22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin."

 

[Zebra1552]

Bro, you can always butt in on me. I invite it. And a good point you make, too.

 

[david_x]

That's not backing, that's claims piled on claims. Claims do not satisfy me.



For the last time, where is your backing for any of this?

This is a Christian only section, why is the Bible not enough backing for you?

 

[david_x]

May I butt in? I'd like to bring in Romans 14 to this matter. It has for a long time been my definition of sin.

"13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. 22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin."

Thanks, that is exactly what I mean.

 

[Zebra1552]

This is a Christian only section, why is the Bible not enough backing for you?

You haven't cited it for sloth, gluttony, greed, or your opinion on what lust is. Why should I recognize what isn't there?

 

[Mea Culpa]

How did sin enter the world?

If it is something that we like we can always find justification for it. In the end, sin is still sin. We just like to make up excuses for it.

 

[Zebra1552]

Thanks, that is exactly what I mean.

What's that? Be specific, that's a pretty big chunk of Scripture.

 

[Zebra1552]

How did sin enter the world?

If it is something that we like we can always find justification for it. In the end, sin is still sin. We just like to make up excuses for it.

How is masturbation a sin? What is the difference between an 'excuse' and a reason for why something isn't sin?

 

[Dragons87]

How is masturbation a sin?

For me, masturbation is a sin because I did not do it out of faith of God.

It was a sin for me because it was something I did in secret, in hiding and not something I could share with other godly people. That was against the principle of fellowship of the saints, and blocked my access to God.

It was a sin for me also because I became addicted to it, unable to stop myself even though I told myself I wanted to stop, and even though I was actual pain over too much "pleasure". I had completely lost control. That was akin to giving over my body, which belongs to Christ, to my own pleasures, and that is definitely sin.

But glory be to God! Because He has now set me free from my addiction and temptations, and I have not even thought about masturbation for 14 consecutive days. This is from someone who has masturbated for a decade, sometimes even three times a day to, as I said, the point of pain.

I recognised that for me, masturbation had taken control over certain aspects of my life, aspects that should be God's. He humbled me before Himself, and I have now found eternal satisfaction in Him, rather than temporary and hollow satisfaction in masturbation.

That's my story. You all may debate the principles of good and bad as if the issue is one that is outside your body, but this is a real story for me. To me, masturbation is not only a sin, but a dangerous addiction and a serious obstacle in my spiritual life.

 

[Zebra1552]

For me, masturbation is a sin because I did not do it out of faith of God.

It was a sin for me because it was something I did in secret, in hiding and not something I could share with other godly people. That was against the principle of fellowship of the saints, and blocked my access to God.

So, then, you always eat with other people? Sleep with other people? Watch movies, play games, read, or exercise with other people? Why must everything done in fellowship? Some things are supposed to be done in secret- like going to the bathroom. It's not something you announce.

It was a sin for me also because I became addicted to it, unable to stop myself even though I told myself I wanted to stop, and even though I was actual pain over too much "pleasure". I had completely lost control. That was akin to giving over my body, which belongs to Christ, to my own pleasures, and that is definitely sin.

Is something the body desires an addiction? If so, then I'm addicted to chicken nuggets, corn chips, and ramen.

I recognised that for me, masturbation had taken control over certain aspects of my life, aspects that should be God's. He humbled me before Himself, and I have now found eternal satisfaction in Him, rather than temporary and hollow satisfaction in masturbation.

That's my story. You all may debate the principles of good and bad as if the issue is one that is outside your body, but this is a real story for me. To me, masturbation is not only a sin, but a dangerous addiction and a serious obstacle in my spiritual life.

Well, good for you, you see it as bad and are able to stop. Me, I can stop and I don't see it as harmful.

 

[david_x]

You haven't cited it for sloth, gluttony, greed, or your opinion on what lust is. Why should I recognize what isn't there?

Sloth,

Matthew 25:26

Gluttony,

proverbs 23:20-21

Greed,

Ephesians 5:3

My opinion of Lust? If something comes between you and God this is bad. Thus lust is a corruption of love, or love that distracts you from God.

 

[david_x]

What's that? Be specific, that's a pretty big chunk of Scripture.

I meant the whole thing, it wasn't directed at you.

 

[UnionJack]

masturbation is a sin

 

[Dragons87]

Brother, allow me to start off by saying that I'm not judging you. My intention is simply to share my story, and challenge you as your Brother in Christ.

So, then, you always eat with other people? Sleep with other people? Watch movies, play games, read, or exercise with other people? Why must everything done in fellowship? Some things are supposed to be done in secret- like going to the bathroom. It's not something you announce.

I don't always eat/sleep/watch films/play/read/exercise/go the toilet with other people, but I can announce all these things in public. I couldn't even touch in private without guilt, let alone announce or, or even do it, in public.

Have you masturbated in public? Or at least, announced in public that you were going to touch?

Is something the body desires an addiction? If so, then I'm addicted to chicken nuggets, corn chips, and ramen.

Not everything that brings us pleasure is an addiction. But if you think about chicken nuggets all day and cannot say "no" to them even if you'd just had a lot of them, there's a chance you're addicted to chicken nuggets.

That was the case for me with masturbation.

Well, good for you, you see it as bad and are able to stop. Me, I can stop and I don't see it as harmful.

"'Everything is permissible'—but not everything is beneficial. 'Everything is permissible'—but not everything is constructive. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others." -- 1 Cor 10:23-24.

Is what we are doing beneficial? Constructive? Can they build up others rather than myself? Does it bring you closer to God? The question is that simple. It should be asked for every act and every thought in every Christian's lives, not just about masturbation.

Brother, I am glad that you have a clean conscience, but I would like to quote a warning from Paul:

"So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!" -- 1 Cor 10:12

May God bless you with His grace, and glory be to Him.

Edit: I would like to refer back to Romans 14. Masturbation is clearly not a grievous sin for everyone. But for some, such as me, it is.

"Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way." Rom 14:13

Will anyone make up their mind so that no stumbling block is placed in my way, or the way of other Brothers who are susceptible to falling?

"Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall." -- Rom 14:19-21

Perhaps masturbation itself isn't a sin, but it will be wrong for anyone to cause someone else to stumble over the issue.

"So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God." -- Rom 14:22

Let those who feel that it is a sin say so and be edified as a follower of Christ, and let those who feel that it is not a sin keep that view private for the edification of their Brothers and for the glory of God.