Masturbation Questions

[ladybug01]

What we are discussing here is a matter that the Bible does not address specifically and about which Christians disagree... which is parallel to the issue Christians faced when Paul was writing letters to them, the eating of meat that had been offered to idols. Paul did not declare either camp wrong or right!

You yourself said that St. Paul thought it was fine to eat meat. That is declaring a camp wrong or right.
St. Paul merely said that some things, which are intrinsically right, can become wrong if they scandalize others.

Well, thanks for sharing far more of your life and thoughts than most of us probably care to know!

I was simply sharing what I had learned from discussions such as these and what others had told me. It should be clear by now that I believe it is immoral to touch, so if I did, why would I pridefully share my own experiences? I do not appreciate your attack on my morality.
Perhaps you should say the same thing to Jatopian that you did to me.

Well, in point of fact, the Bible does give us several examples of God smiting people who committed those sins... Ananias and Sapphria, Achan and his family, David, whose son Nathanial was taken from him becasue of his sin of murder and adultry... the list could go on.

Oh, I thought you were wanting a modern example. Sorry I misunderstood.
I cannot offer you any Biblical examples of someone being smote by God for masturbating, because we have already established that it is not explicitly mentioned.
(Be careful with your examples, by the way-- Achan was stoned to death by his fellow Isrealites. His family was unharmed, and he was not smote by God. All God did was to prevent an Isrealite victory.)

I'm gong to assume that you are not married (please correct me if I'm wrong) or, if you are married, it has been for a short while. So, these things you are saying about masturbation and instant gratification and being tempted into adultry I am also going to assume you "know" becasue this is what people - youth leaders, pastors or your parents - have told you. When it comes to sex, hardly anyone tells the whole truth. They don't think it's wise for unmarried young adults to hear the whole truth. They are repeating how they were told it is supposed to be. They are telling you what they want you to do, which is not necessarily what they did or what they choose to do. Bottom line, most Christian parents are not all that comfortable with their own or other people's children being sexual beings. And so their perspective on such matters is not always very helpful.

That was actually something I read from a pro-life website. Unfortunately, I did not bookmark it, and when searching for it again, could not find that precise website. (I did find this one, though, which is good: http://www.obscenitycrimes.org/harmfuleffects.cfm).
My pastor does not metion it, and I have no youth pastor. My mom does not talk about it at all, except to say that she thinks it is ok. All information I have learned on the subject has been in religion books from when I was homeschooled, books of questions teens ask, and the Catechism (also a part of my high school religion courses, though.)

You know full well no one is arguing that stealing is right.

He said that "everything is permissible." I was just showing the irrationality of using this argument to justify sins.

Again, on what basis can you say that mastrubation is in and of itself wrong? You have told us that you would be lusting if you did it, but others tell us they do not lust when they mastrubate. Clearly it would be wrong for you, but not for everyone. No one is trying to persuade you to mastrubate!

It is an inherently immoral practice. It causes fascination on one's genitals-- possibly idolatry, by the very act of stimulating them.
It creates an undue focus on sexuality. All sexual activity outside of marriage is immoral, the Bible is clear to say. This, then, would be included.

For sexual activity to be moral, it must be both procreative and unitive. Masturbation is neither, for it is, instead, impotent and done by oneself.

To say that something, in and of itself, can be wrong for some but right for others, is to deny absolute truth. Futhermore, to say that nothing is absolute is, by itself, to declare an absolute statement! The denial of absolute truth is fundamentally contradictory, and Truth can never contradict Truth.

I have reread the New Testament several times, but I cannot find Christ condemning lust when one is not actually looking at the person.

How else would one lust? One doesn't have to physically gaze upon another woman to lust after her-- he can always imagine her and still lust. He can even think about her for a bit and lust.

 

[LoG]

Mat 19:11 But he said to them, "Not everyone can accept this saying, except those to whom celibacy has been granted.


Mat 19:12For some men are celibate from birth, while others are celibate because they have been made that way by others. Still others are celibate because they have made themselves that way for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can."


1Co 7:9 However, if they cannot control themselves, they should getmarried, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.



I always thought these two passages were indirectly referring to this topic. They seem to acknowledge that there are some ...if not most that have a hard time controlling passion. The ability to control is given by God to some.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

in before the inevitable 'masturbating is a mortal sin you're going to hell' crowd

That's me I guess.

Darnit! Beat me!

On a more serious note, I would not say that masturbation is always a mortal sin and I most certainly would not presume to know how someone will be judged by God--ever. Masturbation is only mortal when done without compulsion that destroys free will and with knowledge of it's sinfulness. So if you honestly don't think it's sinful then you are not culpable.

Peace be with you in Jesus
Rob

 

[Mashley]

In my opinion, yes, it is wrong. I feel guilty when I do it. How can you touch without sexual thoughts? Something arouses you. My dad, on the other hand, says that most teenagers do it. He doesn't think it's wrong. He says that he and my mom probably both did it when they were kids. They weren't Christians then.

 

[CM]

I don't see why you'd need sexual thoughts..it's jsut..there. oo

but meh, It's not wrong, if it was God'd be trying to tell me otherwise.

 

[billwald]

"Mastubation includes lust for another's body. It always involves some form of fantasy."

I discovered masturbation long before I learned the purpose of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].

 

[bliz]

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You yourself said that St. Paul thought it was fine to eat meat. That is declaring a camp wrong or right.

No, he said that it was fine for himself. He does not tell non-meat eaters that they are wrong.

St. Paul merely said that some things, which are intrinsically right, can become wrong if they scandalize others.

If that's what Paul said, then why are you trying to tell everyone that mastrubation is wrong?

Oh, I thought you were wanting a modern example. Sorry I misunderstood.
I cannot offer you any Biblical examples of someone being smote by God for masturbating, because we have already established that it is not explicitly mentioned.
(Be careful with your examples, by the way-- Achan was stoned to death by his fellow Isrealites. His family was unharmed, and he was not smote by God. All God did was to prevent an Isrealite victory.)

Joshua 7: 24
24 Then Joshua, together with all Israel, took Achan son of Zerah, the silver, the robe, the gold wedge, his sons and daughters, his cattle, donkeys and sheep, his tent and all that he had, to the Valley of Achor. 25 Joshua said, "Why have you brought this trouble on us? The LORD will bring trouble on you today."



Then all Israel stoned him, and after they had stoned the rest, they burned them.


I am very careful with my examples.

All information I have learned on the subject has been in religion books from when I was homeschooled, books of questions teens ask, and the Catechism (also a part of my high school religion courses, though.)

You make my case for me. You are repeating what someone else has written in a book instead of what someone else has told you - it's the same thing.

He said that "everything is permissible." I was just showing the irrationality of using this argument to justify sins.

It is an inherently immoral practice. It causes fascination on one's genitals-- possibly idolatry, by the very act of stimulating them.
It creates an undue focus on sexuality. All sexual activity outside of marriage is immoral, the Bible is clear to say. This, then, would be included.

For sexual activity to be moral, it must be both procreative and unitive. Masturbation is neither, for it is, instead, impotent and done by oneself.

Fascination with one's genetalia? Let me guess... you read it in a book! If all sexual activity must be procreative and unitative then I guess kissing is out of the question... also hugging... caressing... not to mention sexual activity if one is infertile or too old to conceive a child...

To say that something, in and of itself, can be wrong for some but right for others, is to deny absolute truth. Futhermore, to say that nothing is absolute is, by itself, to declare an absolute statement! The denial of absolute truth is fundamentally contradictory, and Truth can never contradict Truth.

Well, as I said originally, you will have to discuss the issue with Paul and the Holy Spirit who told him what to write becasue he wrote "Everything is permissable but not everything is beneficial." It is Holy Scripture. If scripture does not conform to your theology, which one is most likely to be wrong?

Ladybug - I hope that you will soften your view becasue someday, in some way or another, you are going to sin sexually. I know yiu are not planning to, but you will. You will lust or have unclean thoughts or mastrubate or whatever. Think how compassionate Jesus was to the woman at the well. Please be as compassionate as he was with yourself. He will stand ready to forgive you, but I really worry that you, and so many other young people that I have encountered on this site, will be uable to forgive themselves.

 

[Shizzle]

How else would one lust? One doesn't have to physically gaze upon another woman to lust after her-- he can always imagine her and still lust. He can even think about her for a bit and lust.

Yes, but sexual fantasies are not wrong.
Dont get todays and the bibles definition of lust mixed up
looking lustfully at a woman is, that is the only verse..
matthew 5:28

 

[invisible trousers]

Yeah, how you define lust can be a problem. To me it looks like many here think lust is any sexual thought at all. I don't know, when I hear lust I think of something more like an unhealthy sexual obsession

 

[Shizzle]

To say that something, in and of itself, can be wrong for some but right for others, is to deny absolute truth. Futhermore, to say that nothing is absolute is, by itself, to declare an absolute statement! The denial of absolute truth is fundamentally contradictory, and Truth can never contradict Truth.

True, but in this case what they mean isnt that itself is wrong for some but not for others, but that if you are unable to control the side affects, trying it is a sin because you could end up sinning by accident. But that is based upon the common misconception that sexual fantasies are equal to lust. in the old languages which the bible was written, the biblical definitions of lust are as follows. (i got these from some history site, and they match many verses excactly)
A- to strive, exert onesself <positive>
B- wants <root>
C- selfish desires, to take pleasure in. <negative>
Todays is not the same as the bibles, if something in the bible says lust is wrong, it has no direct acquaintence with sexual fantasies. That would only mean we should not be selfish in our thoughts, yet the only verse which talks about lust and women in the same context is matthew 5:28. The reason we must dechipre verses today is because language has been mixed though translation and the real meanings lost.

3. Matthew 5:28

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Causes:
A. Looketh upon a woman
B. To lust after her
Effects:
A. Adultery in your heart (thus sin)

in sexual fantasies, cause A is not fulfilled.
This verse was very specific about how adultery could be commited in your heart, it is not saying that adultery can be commited in your heart as it can in reality. Adultery really means illicit sex, it does not mean sex outside of marriage or anything else whatsoever.

 

[Vertigo]

My ex girlfriend has an autistic brother at the age of 18. He has no sexual desires, nor has he even "seen" a woman. The only thing he does is watch cartoons. He has the mind of a 2 year old, but... he walks around the house masterbating. He doesnt know any better, so he doesnt cover up. This is the same with kids. I know I was doing it when i was a preteen. I wasnt lusting after a girl. I just did it, and without thinking it was wrong.

Is it sinful to have a sexual dream about someone you dont even know?

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Is it sinful to have a sexual dream about someone you dont even know?

Rarely can we say our dreams are sinful. Though often we do have some level of control in our dreams. It's really the same as what you were saying about the young man with autism and about young children--we can't be culpable for something that we haven't got control over or knowledge of the sinfulness of. Is masturbation still objectively "wrong"?...I'd say probably yes. But are we tainted or incur guilt by performing this act?...certainly not if we totally lack knowledge and consent of will.

Peace,
Rob

 

[alivenchrist]

touching yourself is wrong. A great book for you to read would be "Every Young Man's Battle" some of the points that the book makes are:
the bible says that if you think about sex with a another woman (when you are married) you have already commited adultery with that woman in your heart. so if your married you should deffinitely stop. if your not, why would it not be a sin to think about having sex with someone when you're not married. If it is considered sex when you are married it is sex when you're not. and if it is not wrong why do you feel bad or guilty after you do it. I know from my experiences that I feel much closer to God when I don't touch than when I do. I also don't believe you can touch with a clear mind. and if you can do it with pure thoughts where does the need to touch come from. I believe that all masturbation is a sin.

 

[holo]

Good for you aliveinchrist, keep doing what you do in faith and thankfulness.
But not everybody thinks that way.
I don't think you can use the argument that you're feeling guilty about it, because it's not our conscience that is to lead us.
Our bodies "expect" to get satisfied once in a while. It's not like with food, but it's still there. In the good old days people got married when they were like, 15.
And yes, it is totally possible to touch without unclean thoughts.
I don't consider it sex anymore than I consider having coffee a meal.

 

[Ave Maria]

Sexual activity must always be open to life. Therefore, masturbation is wrong.

 

[holo]

Sexual activitiy must always be open to life. Therefore, masturbation is wrong.

If I understand you correctly, you oppose contraception as well then? Just asking.

 

[Ave Maria]

If I understand you correctly, you oppose contraception as well then? Just asking.

Yes, I oppose contraception.

 

[CM]

meh, imo there's too many people on the earth as it is, but meh >>';

I still don't see how it's "Wasting seed" or w/e. I mean guys produce it like spit, you can't run out. oO
and as for girls, no harm can be done to them either. o.o

 

[Ave Maria]

Masturbation is wrong. It's a sin. It causes lust or results from lust right?

 

[Shizzle]

the bible says that if you think about sex with a another woman

no
sexual fantasies arent wrong
theres no biblical things showing them to be and the closest one to it, matthew 5:28 i explained below why it doenst.

True, but in this case what they mean isnt that itself is wrong for some but not for others, but that if you are unable to control the side affects, trying it is a sin because you could end up sinning by accident. But that is based upon the common misconception that sexual fantasies are equal to lust. in the old languages which the bible was written, the biblical definitions of lust are as follows. (i got these from some history site, and they match many verses excactly)
A- to strive, exert onesself <positive>
B- wants <root>
C- selfish desires, to take pleasure in. <negative>
Todays is not the same as the bibles, if something in the bible says lust is wrong, it has no direct acquaintence with sexual fantasies. That would only mean we should not be selfish in our thoughts, yet the only verse which talks about lust and women in the same context is matthew 5:28. The reason we must dechipre verses today is because language has been mixed though translation and the real meanings lost.

3. Matthew 5:28

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Causes:
A. Looketh upon a woman
B. To lust after her
Effects:
A. Adultery in your heart (thus sin)

in sexual fantasies, cause A is not fulfilled.
This verse was very specific about how adultery could be commited in your heart, it is not saying that adultery can be commited in your heart as it can in reality. Adultery really means illicit sex, it does not mean sex outside of marriage or anything else whatsoever.

sexual fantasies are not inherently selfish as is a requirement for the bad connotation of lust.
if you dont believe sexual fantasies to be wrong, then how can you believe art depicting sex/nudity to be wrong when they are both equal. They are both simply fantasies, one in your mind, one on paper.