masturbation challenge

[The Gregorian]

Everyone loves monty python... and everyone has had "Every sperm is sacred" stuck in their head at one point or another....

So... some people find masturbation to be perfectly normal and healthy... while others consider it a sin. This question's been asked plenty of times... Some point out that fetuses touch before birth... but does that make it right? Some say it's good for your health... certainly want to make sure "those parts" stay in good shape, right? Yet others will point out ala monty python: The spilling of one's seed is a sin. And even if you didn't "get to that point" ... it's still a product of lust... and to lust after someone is one step away from committing the act.

We're not to the question yet... almost...

So... is it the act itself, or one of those parts?

To cover the lust aspect... what if you're married, and you're thinking about your partner at the moment... Surely lusting after your spouse isn't wrong. As for spilling one's seed... What if it's a wife with "some extra time on her hands?" There is no "seed" to be spilled there.

So... I've heard all the arguments for masturbation being healthy and natural and acceptable... But for those opposed to the idea... What is there left to prohibit a married woman from masturbating while thinking of her husband?

Or is it only wrong for men?

Just figured I'd toss that out there and see where the ball rolled. (Again, this is a "what's wrong with it?" question... I'd prefer if people didn't take up space with the "it's perfectly natural" idea. That's been suggested plenty and I wanna give the other side room to speak)

 

[Washington]

With a title like "masturbation challenge" I was expecting a sequal to the Seinfeld episode,"The Contest." Obviously this is not the case, and because I'm one of those people who considers it pretty natural, I'll take my leave.

 

[stan1980]

My mate Johnny told me managed 9 in one day once!!

Oooops, didn't read the thread...

Okay, i'll start off by saying it's pretty obvious that the bible was written by men with no spiritual guidance from God. There is nothing, and i mean nothing that suggests it was written by an all knowing God. So given that it was written by men, perhaps they didn't realise that women touch too so no provision was made for women having a downstairs play. School boy error by the authors.

 

[cantata]

The title of this thread got me here under false pretences.

Anyway, my feeling is that if God is bothered by masturbation as an act in itself, he needs to get out more.

 

[stan1980]

Everyone loves monty python...

Apologies for derailing the thread, but does everyone really love monty python? Personally, I found it about as funny as contracting herpes.

Also, the story where God kills a man for spilling his seed on the ground is a little strange. If God were to be consistent, wouldn't he kill everyone who spills their seed or is this more bible lies? I can tell you for one, without going into detail, my seed has been "spilt" in probably far worse places than the ground, and so I am living proof that God wont kill you for this crime, so I am going to assume that it is all lies.

The most troubling thing about this though, is that the Roman Catholic church amongst others, still cite this story as a reason for not using contraception. So the gullibility of one institution is inadvertently causing the premature death of millions of people worldwide. That makes me angry, and it should make you angry too.

And before you reply that the church also says to practice celibacy, save it, I've heard it all before.

 

[cantata]

Apologies for derailing the thread, but does everyone really love monty python? Personally, I found it about as funny as contracting herpes.

*sigh* You philistine

Also, the story where God kills a man for spilling his seed on the ground is a little strange. If God were to be consistent, wouldn't he kill everyone who spills their seed or is this more bible lies? I can tell you for one, without going into detail, my seed has been "spilt" in probably far worse places than the ground, and so I am living proof that God wont kill you for this crime, so I am going to assume that it is all lies.

God kills Onan for failing to fulfil his duty to his brother by impregnating his wife. It has nothing to do with the spilling of seed per se.

 

[stan1980]

God kills Onan for failing to fulfil his duty to his brother by impregnating his wife. It has nothing to do with the spilling of seed per se.

Okay, after looking this up and reading an interpretation, you maybe right, so where does the church get the idea that the spilling of seed, contraception and masturbation is wrong?

 

[craigerNY]

Ahhh the old bait and switch. Man you really got my hopes up with that thread title. Thanks for nothing. By the way, I do not love Monty Python.

 

[cantata]

Okay, after looking this up and reading an interpretation, you maybe right, so where does the church get the idea that the spilling of seed, contraception and masturbation is wrong?

Well, in several ways.

1) It wants to have that idea, and scripture is a convenient way of supporting it. Masturbation is a way of experiencing (occasionally almost transcendental) pleasure, and it doesn't involve making babies or praying. Oh noes! You'll notice that everything else which produces pleasure for pleasure's sake is also frowned upon by the Catholic church - like cannabis, or oral sex, for example.
2) A wilful bastardisation of Aristotelian philosophy has led to the notion that it's wrong to use anything for any purpose other than its natural, 'proper' one. And the Church doesn't think masturbation is the proper purpose of the sexual organs.
3) Looking at a woman with lust is, according to some interpretations of Jesus' words, tantamount to adultery. Many Christians like, for some masochistic reason, to extend this to thinking about a woman (or man) with lust, even an imaginary woman (or man) or a woman (or man) with whom you never intend to have sex. I think you'd have to be pretty insecure to worry about your partner doing this, but there you go.
4) There's a weird notion that you should expend all your sexual energies on your partner. Sex is supposed to be a loving-couples-only activity, and that means masturbation is a waste of your sex drive. Personally I'm extremely glad that my boyfriend masturbates. We'd never leave the bedroom otherwise. I am also of the opinion that masturbation is a totally different form of sexual experience from sex, and neither detracts from the other. But if you have a very narrow view of sex (or, indeed, if you have a very male view of sex), I suppose the thought of your partner masturbating might bother you, especially if they don't want to have sex as often as you do.

 

[stan1980]

Well, in several ways.

1) It wants to have that idea, and scripture is a convenient way of supporting it. Masturbation is a way of experiencing (occasionally almost transcendental) pleasure, and it doesn't involve making babies or praying. Oh noes! You'll notice that everything else which produces pleasure for pleasure's sake is also frowned upon by the Catholic church - like cannabis, or oral sex, for example.
2) A wilful bastardisation of Aristotelian philosophy has led to the notion that it's wrong to use anything for any purpose other than its natural, 'proper' one. And the Church doesn't think masturbation is the proper purpose of the sexual organs.
3) Looking at a woman with lust is, according to some interpretations of Jesus' words, tantamount to adultery. Many Christians like, for some masochistic reason, to extend this to thinking about a woman (or man) with lust, even an imaginary woman (or man) or a woman (or man) with whom you never intend to have sex. I think you'd have to be pretty insecure to worry about your partner doing this, but there you go.
4) There's a weird notion that you should expend all your sexual energies on your partner. Sex is supposed to be a loving-couples-only activity, and that means masturbation is a waste of your sex drive. Personally I'm extremely glad that my boyfriend masturbates. We'd never leave the bedroom otherwise. I am also of the opinion that masturbation is a totally different form of sexual experience from sex, and neither detracts from the other. But if you have a very narrow view of sex (or, indeed, if you have a very male view of sex), I suppose the thought of your partner masturbating might bother you, especially if they don't want to have sex as often as you do.

Okay, thanks for the heads up. If I'm going to be picky though, I'd say the part I've highlighted is a touch obnoxious. I'm sure you'd agree that not all men have a narrow view of sex, nor is having a narrow view of sex an exclusive male trait.

 

[quatona]

The title of this thread got me here under false pretences.

Yeah, I was a bit disappointed, too.

 

[TheManeki]

Yeah, I was a bit disappointed, too.

Yeah...

And now I have "Every Sperm is Sacred" stuck in my head to boot! I think the only way to dislodge it is to start humming "Fish Heads," but then how will I get rid of that?!?

 

[Meshavrischika]

*sigh* You philistine



God kills Onan for failing to fulfil his duty to his brother by impregnating his wife. It has nothing to do with the spilling of seed per se.

bingo. I hate this used as "the reason" to not do this. it's a fundamental misunderstanding of that scripture TOTALLY. ugh.

 

[GrayCat]

Yeah...

And now I have "Every Sperm is Sacred" stuck in my head to boot! I think the only way to dislodge it is to start humming "Fish Heads," but then how will I get rid of that?!?

Am i weird if i actually like "Fish Heads?" :-D

 

[flicka]

Am i weird if i actually like "Fish Heads?" :-D

No. I sing it to my cats.

 

[ArcticKnight]

The thread title is definitely an attention getter.

Concerning the chalenge:

"Mr. Happy" is the best "toy" I've ever owned. I've had it for 40 years and I never get tired of playing with it.

 

[gengwall]

There is no prevailing opinion in "the church". In fact, there is no prevailing opinion even within many denominations. The four main approaches to masturbation in the church are, in order from strictest to most lenient:

It is a sin, period.
It has great potential to be harmful to self or relationships and therefore should be rare and well considered before engaging in.
It is a natural and God given outlet and therefore is almost always acceptable.
There are no spiritual or religious ramifications, so knock yourself out.

In other words, the church is all over the board.

What really matters from a Christian (and Jewish) perspective is what the bible says about masturbation, which is zero, nothing, nadda, zilch (cantata is correct, the Onan incident is not about masturbation or contraception). So, we need to look at other biblical instructions to see if there are issues that masturbation may impact. The best review of this is covered on several pages at www.themarriagebed.com, and I will not try and repeat their efforts (see this index and look under Masturbation). The bottom line is that, while the bible doesn't condemn masturbation per se, it does take issue with certain situations and contexts which may have masturbation as a component. My personal view, in light of that, mirrors the second of the views I listed above.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Apologies for derailing the thread, but does everyone really love monty python? Personally, I found it about as funny as contracting herpes.

Also, the story where God kills a man for spilling his seed on the ground is a little strange. If God were to be consistent, wouldn't he kill everyone who spills their seed or is this more bible lies? I can tell you for one, without going into detail, my seed has been "spilt" in probably far worse places than the ground, and so I am living proof that God wont kill you for this crime, so I am going to assume that it is all lies.

The most troubling thing about this though, is that the Roman Catholic church amongst others, still cite this story as a reason for not using contraception. So the gullibility of one institution is inadvertently causing the premature death of millions of people worldwide. That makes me angry, and it should make you angry too.

And before you reply that the church also says to practice celibacy, save it, I've heard it all before.

You are referring to Genesis 38:6-10. God killed Onan, not because he was masturbating but because he was engaging in a rudimentary (and ineffective) form of birth control, coitis interruptus.


Onan was involved in a levirate marriage. The name of this type of marriage is derived from the Latin word "levir," which means "brother-in-law." This involved a woman who was widowed without having borne a son. She would be required to leave her home, marry her brother-in-law, live with him, and engage in sexual relations. The woman would have to endure what was essentially serial rapes with her former brother-in-law as perpetrator. Their first-born son was considered to be sired by the deceased husband. In Genesis 38:6-10, Tamar's husband Er was killed by God for unspecified sinful behavior. Er's brother, Onan, was then required by custom to marry Tamar. Not wanting to have a child who would not be consider his, he attempted a bit of birth control. God appears to have given a very high priority to the levirate marriage obligation. Being very displeased with Onan's behavior, God killed him as well for his sin. it is assumed there was a third brother for Tamar to be married to and subsequently raped until she became pregnant.

 

[Caitlin.ann]

There's nothing wrong with masturbation regardless of whether you're married or single, thinking of your significant other or a stranger, etc.

 

[gengwall]

You are referring to Genesis 38:6-10. God killed Onan, not because he was masturbating but because he was engaging in a rudimentary (and ineffective) form of birth control, coitis interruptus.


Onan was involved in a levirate marriage. The name of this type of marriage is derived from the Latin word "levir," which means "brother-in-law." This involved a woman who was widowed without having borne a son. She would be required to leave her home, marry her brother-in-law, live with him, and engage in sexual relations. The woman would have to endure what was essentially serial rapes with her former brother-in-law as perpetrator. Their first-born son was considered to be sired by the deceased husband. In Genesis 38:6-10, Tamar's husband Er was killed by God for unspecified sinful behavior. Er's brother, Onan, was then required by custom to marry Tamar. Not wanting to have a child who would not be consider his, he attempted a bit of birth control. God appears to have given a very high priority to the levirate marriage obligation. Being very displeased with Onan's behavior, God killed him as well for his sin. it is assumed there was a third brother for Tamar to be married to and subsequently raped until she became pregnant.

Technical note. There was a 3rd brother but Judah shielded him from Tamar for fear he would also be killed. When Tamar, who apparently was keen on the whole levirate heir thing, saw she had been cheated not only by Onan but by his father Judah as well, she disguised herself as a prostitute and saw to it that Judah himself impregnated her (he apparently did not put up much of a fight.) When it was later exposed that he was the father of Tamar's unborn son, he accepted the blame for his part in the conspiracy and held her blameless even though she deceived him. The eventual son Perez (one of twins), was the forefather of David who was the forefather of Jesus, which probably explains God's heightened interest in the whole sordid affair.

Of course, none of that has anything to do with the topic, so onward we go...