Masturbation as a Sin (A Different Approach)

Tetra said:

Certainly everyone can be guilty of this from time to time. However, here, I am not. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. Since no one can clearly show me Scripture that indicates masturbating is wrong, people who believe that it is wrong are inserting their beliefs into Scripture. They are attempting to make Scripture say something it doesn't, so that they can convince others to believe what they believe. If you think I'm doing that, fill me in on the claims I have made. So far, I believe I have only asked questions to make people think a bit differently on the issue. If anyone here said "The Scriptures are unclear on this issue, but I think it's wrong" I would have no issue. That's not what is happening though.

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Jehovah Witnesses live only by the Scriptures, albeit, modified for their point of view.

salt-n-light said:

We are in agreement that yes everything is basically sex and is displayed in different forms. But it’s not always because I desire sex. Our emotions are not that linear and not every desire of sex is a direct need of actual sex. It could be of need of intimacy or loneliness ( like in your example) that come to fruition in whatever form. It could be a memory, pleasant or tramatic that sex eases the pain of. It could be a spontaneous event that sparked curiosity and lead one to explore it through touching yourself. In short, just because the action shows “ I desire sex”, doesn’t mean the cure would be sex. But it is a valid thing to ask, if one desire sex defined by God in all its satisfying glory, with a man/woman, and their resolution is something outside that definition, why did they gravitate towards something outside of it, why is it deemed something necessary to do?

My thing is that often times we more question whether or not I can do certain acts as oppose to questioning why we do them in the first place. Why do I desire to have the feeling of sex outside the parameters established by God, which is between man and woman? Why is that you can’t help but touch if she is away that long? Why is it a marker of success or a glue for your marriage? Just self-examination.

It may seem tedious, but maybe it would save couples a lot of money they pour into therapists and marriage counselors that would ask the same type of questions.

We don’t question the heart, it’s just always assumed that it’s of good intent and doesn’t harm anyone so it’s not sinful. That’s not a cultural thing, it’s spiritual.

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You bring up some very good and valid points.

But the one thing you do NOT address is the hormonal urge for release/[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. Yes there may be all kinds of physical, mental, emotional and perhaps spiritual issues connected with this; but at its core, that urge is primarily hormonal.

And God Himself designed that hormonal makeup.

Dave-W said:

Agreed. But you need to make a BIBLICAL link between sinful lust and M. That has not been done.

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1 John 2:16 (KJV) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
lust - G1939 from <G1937> (epithumeo); a longing (especially for what is forbidden) :- concupiscence, desire, lust (after).
concupiscence - strong sexual desire; lust
merriam-webster - : strong desire; especially : sexual desire;
Colossians 3:5 (KJV) Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
inordinate affection - G3806 from the alternate of <G3958> (pascho); properly suffering (“pathos”), i.e. (subject) a passion (especially concupiscence) :- (inordinate) affection, lust.
Also not what Paul says at the beginning of this verse: "we are to mortify our members" which means we are to "deaden" our members which mean limbs. I guess you can call it a limb (pun intended).
members - G3196 of uncertain affinity; a limb or part of the body :- member.

I can get more if you really want it. You should be able to figure it out from this alone.

2tim_215 said:

lust - G1939 from <G1937> (epithumeo); a longing (especially for what is forbidden) :- concupiscence, desire, lust (after).

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And 2 uses of epithumeo (verb and noun) are used of the Lord Himself:


So apparently that comment "especially for what is forbidden" is not all that true.

2tim_215 said:

I can get more if you really want it. You should be able to figure it out from this alone.

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I am sure you can. But you are basing all of this on a pre-conceived premise that M is inherently sinful. So you find all kinds of scriptures to say that lust and sin are wrong.

We know that.

You need to prove the premise first.

Dave-W said:

I am sure you can. But you are basing all of this on a pre-conceived premise that M is inherently sinful. So you find all kinds of scriptures to say that lust and sin are wrong.

We know that.

You need to prove the premise first.

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The Bible doesn't mention anything about oral sex. Does that mean it's ok? Or even smoking. That's something the Bible doesn't speak about but it does tell us that our bodies are the temple for the Holy Spirit and we know what the physical effects are of cigarettes. So are you saying that lust and SIN are not wrong?

2tim_215 said:

The Bible doesn't mention anything about oral sex.

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It is mentioned at least twice in the Song of Solomon.

2tim_215 said:

Does that mean it's ok?

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Between a husband and wife - absolutely

2tim_215 said:

Or even smoking.

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Not mentioned - therefore not inherently sinful. But a VERY bad idea health-wise.

2tim_215 said:

So are you saying that lust and SIN are not wrong?

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I do not go with english terms. If so I would have to put Luke 22.15 like this:

And he said unto them, With lust I have lusted to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

Was that sinful? Of course not.

Don't get too hung up on the english wording.

Lust for illicit sex is certainly sinful.

Dave-W said:

And 2 uses of epithumeo (verb and noun) are used of the Lord Himself:

Luke 22:15 KJV
And he said unto them, With desire (epithymia) I have desired (epithymeō) to eat this passover with you before I suffer:​

So apparently that comment "especially for what is forbidden" is not all that true.

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There's a difference between "lusting" over something for the benefit of others other than just trying to satisfy oneself.
lust merriam-webster - : strong desire; especially : sexual desire;
specifically sexual desire but could be desire in general which is what Jesus was referring to and it wasn't (in his case) in order to satisfy a sexual (physical desire by a spiritual one). In the case of M, it's sole purpose is to satisfy ones physical needs/desires.
Galatians 5:16 (KJV) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
What do you consider lust of the flesh? And what about walking in the flesh? How do you do that? Not by doing M for sure.
Galatians 5:17-21 (KJV)
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
lasciviousness - Use lascivious to describe a person's behavior that is driven by thoughts of sex. If someone gives you a lascivious smile, they've got only one thing in mind. Latin-based lascivious and the Old English word lust both share the same Indo-European root las- "to be eager, wanton."
dictionary.com - inclined to lustfulness; wanton; lewd:a lascivious, girl-chasing old man.
James 1:14-15 (KJV) But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
I think I've presented enough scriptures to prove the point. However, you certainly can believe what you want to. The question was asked. and a number of posters seem to agree that it's a sin but Paul said in Romans 14:
Romans 14:22 (KJV) Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
alloweth - from <G1384> (dokimos); to test (literal or figurative); by implication to approve :- allow, discern, examine, × like, (ap-) prove, try.
So I guess you and tetra can M all you want. As for the rest of us we choose not to because we believe it is sin and more importantly it's something that God would not wish us to do.

Tetra said:

So it would be your view that not all masturbation is a sin, only some types then?

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Adulterating a marriage relationship whether that be a future one or a present one is never an action in accordance with the Spirit of Christ.

In so far as masturbation is an act engaged in mutually as something that strengthens the marital bond between husband and wife, then what can be said against it?

Nevertheless there is a vast difference between mutual stimulation and sex that is engaged in without a marital partner.

When it comes to God's word and the choices we make, if they're not in compliance with His word, even if we don't understand why, there's always going to be certain consequences as a result.

Monks confess to masturbation. It's doctor recommended to people like me. It's bee proven long periods of time without release can do some harm. Cancer, diseases, ect come from lack of releases. Your car has to have the oil changed every now and then for a reason.

When a man and a wombman come together they can bring forth new life .So it is sacred act that's why we have marriage to put God's protection around them.Now most time people have sex they aren't doing it in that frame of mind they are taking from the other person .Instead of using sex to create a figure eight flow between man and a woman to raise each other up.Now we live in a highly over sexual world.Created from movies , media , music .where there is much attention put on a woman's body cause sex sells .They want you to buy , but everything has a price, we are feeding our energy into a black hole that can never be satisfied . Genesis 1:26 -28 very important God created man to take dominion of the Earth to take dominion( charge ) of the Earth we must first take charge of our minds .So the prince of this world comes and has nothing in you that he can use to control you.Much like a cow gets milked people give up their energy" light " to demons , fallen beings who are cut off from God so they feed off humans by getting them to misuse their energy (sin ) they introduced all the perversions of sex .Creating if it feels good just do it culture.

John Bowen said:

When a man and a wombman come together they can bring forth new life .So it is sacred act that's why we have marriage to put God's protection around them.Now most time people have sex they aren't doing it in that frame of mind they are taking from the other person .Instead of using sex to create a figure eight flow between man and a woman to raise each other up.Now we live in a highly over sexual world.Created from movies , media , music .where there is much attention put on a woman's body cause sex sells .They want you to buy , but everything has a price, we are feeding our energy into a black hole that can never be satisfied . Genesis 1:26 -28 very important God created man to take dominion of the Earth to take dominion( charge ) of the Earth we must first take charge of our minds .So the prince of this world comes and has nothing in you that he can use to control you.

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I actually believe God created sex between a married man and woman for procreation and it's been perverted over time to mean something else.

2tim_215 said:

I actually believe God created sex between a married man and woman for procreation and it's been perverted over time to mean something else.

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it was designed for procreation. That desire is strong in so many. Some cultures still consider sex for creation and that's it. That was the only way (at the time) to "fill the earth". To motivate people to procreate, He made it fun I suppose (to those who are lucky and not medically screwed) which would encourage it. People may have found it not economically ideal to keep popping out kids they could not support but did not want to give up the fun and pleasure so many things became of that like oral sex, non-intercourse [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], birth control, condoms, anal sex, ect.

Dave-W said:

And there is the question: Can God make a rock so big that He Himself cannot lift it.

The assumption behind the question is this: We start from the premise that masturbation is sinful. Since it is said in scripture that He never sinned, then He could not have possibly done that.

I challenge the premise. If it is NOT sinful, then it certainly is possible He did that. The truth is, we have no clue one way or the other.

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The one thing about Jesus is that He had something that none of us has upon being born: an awareness of who He is fully in God the Father. So, even IF masturbation isn't really a sin, I doubt very much that Jesus ever abated His Mastery of being human.

Tetra said:

Yes, the entire context of the post was in reference to masturbation within marriage.

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Within the context of marriage, I wouldn't call mutual stimulation between spouses "masturbation"; rather, I would call that 'sex,' or one expression thereof.

Tetra said:

Just so we're clear I'll state my position. My position is that the Bible doesn't definitively state one way or the other that masturbation is a sin. However, if someone is personally convicted about it, stick to your own convictions.

I do have a different take on this topic though that isn't often considered. Many seem to presuppose a very specific and narrow definition of masturbation and / or, it's situational context. They typically imagine single men or women in this situation.

What bothers me is that this is a very narrow view of the topic.

For example, is it a sin to touch:

• When thinking about your spouse?
• To mutually touch with your spouse?
• When thinking about your spouse who may have long passed away, or left you?
• To look at images of your spouse, or a video that you may have made together with your spouse? (this technically meets the criteria of being pornography by it's current definition)

What do you think CF, what is your opinion?

Cheers,
Tetra

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Personally I wouldn't ask CF if it's a sin, I would let the bible tell me, and if it's not in the bible then it may or may not be sin, but only a prophet could tell you that. And since God is the only prophet these days I doubt it is possible to get a correct answer.

Tetra said:

For example, is it a sin to touch:

• When thinking about your spouse?
• To mutually touch with your spouse?
• When thinking about your spouse who may have long passed away, or left you?
• To look at images of your spouse, or a video that you may have made together with your spouse? (this technically meets the criteria of being pornography by it's current definition)

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Yes to all of these, except possibly the second one. They are all sinful because they are all based on lust. The exception for the second is that this could be part of procreational sex and therefore not necessarily lustful.