Massive Volcanic events and earth impact catastrophies falsify young earth creationis

the_malevolent_milk_man

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Raydar said:
Genisis1:1 states "Now the world was formless and empty," Now I can admit that I do not have the educational background of Frumious Bandersnatch or Jet Black, but I can conclude that it is possible that all this could have happened somewhere between eternity and when the world was formless and void or just after, since I could also believe that time was not created until the first day. But I am not quite sure. You guys really challenge a person to think! Thanks because I think it helps me grow, as a person and a believer.
That's impossible going by any definition or scale of time currently avaialable.

If an action takes place there is a delay from start to finish, even if it's only a pico second. That is time, it's a reference point. The very first action is the begining of time since it is the first reference. God creating the earth, even if it is formless and void, is the first reference point of actions given by the bible, and thus the start of christian time.

From that point on any natural events of the earth such as volcanos, meteor impacts, floods, ice ages, etc would have to occur between the first sentance of the bible and when man is created by God in normal time.
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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Raydar said:
Genisis1:1 states "Now the world was formless and empty," Now I can admit that I do not have the educational background of Frumious Bandersnatch or Jet Black, but I can conclude that it is possible that all this could have happened somewhere between eternity and when the world was formless and void or just after, since I could also believe that time was not created until the first day. But I am not quite sure. You guys really challenge a person to think! Thanks because I think it helps me grow, as a person and a believer.
OK, that's not a bad try at an answer but it has some major problems. The Deccan Traps for example sit on top of a group of Cretaceous strata called the Baugh group, so they certainly didn't flow out when the earth was without form.
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1046/j.1365-246X.1998.00501.x/abs/
One of the craters the Lonar crater landed about 50,000 years ago on top of the Deccan traps.
http://www.volcanolive.com/deccan.html

The Siberian Traps are on top of coal bearing sediments called the Tungusskaya Series which spans from the mid carbonaceous to the Permian.
http://www.mantleplumes.org/Siberia.html

The supervolcanic eruptions put out layers of ash which can be found in various geologcial layers where the ash fell to earth or settled slowly through the oceans after the eruptions.

The strata under all the impact craters can be identified. I don't have time to do it now but if you do I think you will find that they hit geologic layers that correlate with the dates established for their impacts.

These catastrophies are recorded throughout the long geologic history of the earth and clearly did not occur when the earth was without form and void.

The Frumious Bandersnatch
 
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I would not give Jet Black etc too much credit as being all that knowledgeable about creation; they use many words to confuse folks not in any effort to reveal truth. Creation is a simple concept to understand while evolution they say you must be educaterd to understand. Yeah right!! The physical evidences support creation while the theoretical is just that for evolution!
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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obediah001 said:
I would not give Jet Black etc too much credit as being all that knowledgeable about creation; they use many words to confuse folks not in any effort to reveal truth. Creation is a simple concept to understand while evolution they say you must be educaterd to understand. Yeah right!! The physical evidences support creation while the theoretical is just that for evolution!
So how does the physical evidence presented in the OP support or deny creation? It doesn't deny creation. It is overwhelming physical evidence against a recent creation about 6,000 years ago with a global flood 4,500 years ago. Do you have any idea as to how to fit all the evidence presented in the OP with your creation "model"?

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The physical evidence will only fit with a young earth model; the evolutionists continue to update & refine their faith everytime their faith is challenged. They speak of C-14 dating & others all of which havwe been & are shown to be wildly speculative at best & based upon scientific assumptions, now that is an oxy moron science & assumptions prove facts right, hhahahaha. There simply is NO proof what soever for evolution while there is plenty of evidence, observable evidence, of the scientifically verifiablew sort which supports & actually proves creatrion to be a viable model while evolution is still in the theoretical adabsurdum mode claiming & trying to prove the unprovable with the multiplication of words. It is absolutely a total fraud start to finnish, evolution that is!
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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obediah001 said:
The physical evidence will only fit with a young earth model; the evolutionists continue to update & refine their faith everytime their faith is challenged. They speak of C-14 dating & others all of which havwe been & are shown to be wildly speculative at best & based upon scientific assumptions, now that is an oxy moron science & assumptions prove facts right, hhahahaha. There simply is NO proof what soever for evolution while there is plenty of evidence, observable evidence, of the scientifically verifiablew sort which supports & actually proves creatrion to be a viable model while evolution is still in the theoretical adabsurdum mode claiming & trying to prove the unprovable with the multiplication of words. It is absolutely a total fraud start to finnish, evolution that is!
There are many threads here with evidence for evolution and many discussing the overwhelming evidence that conclusively falsfies the particular young earth and global flood version of creationism that you apparently worship. I can only conclude that you are trying to distract attention from the inability of YECs to defend their myth against all the science that refutes it. Do you have anything relevant to say about the OP? It doesn't look like it.
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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I knew you could not stick to the factsd as they are so overwhelming in the creation camp; & byt he way I woreship Jesus NOT creation you son of the serpent in words
What facts are those? If you want to open a thread and present scientific evidence for YEC (not the PRATT list or claims against evolution) go ahead. Be the first to present verifiable evidence for YEC. This thread has a topic which is NOT about evidence for evolution but about how the YEC timeframe can't accomodate all the massive volcanic eruptions and meteorite impacts that have occured in the billions of years of earth's history. I presented facts in the OP and made arguments that have not been answered.

obediah001 said:
I knew you would not speak of MT st helens; you evoluitionsts literally flee from its facts like a roach from the light.
I would be glad to discuss all the YEC nonsense about Mt. St. Helens on a separate thread if you want to. I have visited the site twice since the eruption and have friends and relatives who live in the area and I know how absurd the YEC claims about St. Helens are. I didn't say much about it here because it was actually a relatively small volcano. Toba was about 10,000 times as large for example.

Now do you have anything to say about the evidence in the OP? So far the YECs haven't done too well and you certainly haven't contributed anything of substance.

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Large igneous provinces

http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/~polsen/nbcp/lipmc.html
Figure 3.3.3.1: Global LIPs, including oceanic plateaus, volcanic passive margins, continental flood basalts, submarine ridges, seamount groups, and ocean basin flood basalts.

When did these flow out? The Deccan and Siberian traps and Columbia River basalts do not contain pillow lava so they did not flow out under water. Was there even time for them to flow out preflood? Could lava 6,500 feet thick have flowed out post flood and cooled enough by 200 BC, to allow the carving of temples?
I can see a few options, the first one that come to mind is the continental seperation. Lots of movement of rock, and grinding, etc. And of course, molten rock. ?

Glenn Morton shows that
the sulfuric acid alone from these massive eruption would have killed off most life on earth.
No longer applicible then.

What about explosive Super volcanoes? The Toba supervolcano 75,000 years ago was 10,000 times the mount St. Helens eruption. Yellowstone Park sits on the caldera of an ancient supervolcano that last erupted about 600,000 years ago.
I lean toward the position again that this was near the seperation of continents. (I have one last ace, should these things not meet the evidence)
.. .So one would think a lot of fine ground material would be around.
"Ash is just fine-grained material that gets thrown out of a volcano. It is little bits of either pulverized rocks or fragments of lava droplets. It is not the same thing as the ash that results from a fire."
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/frequent_questions/grp9/question3670.html


http://www.cave.be/SPECIALSSUPERVOLCANOES.html
http://www.cave.be/SPECIALSSUPERVOLCANOES.html
The link is down, so I can't comment on this one.
Then there are earth impacts. This data base lists 167 known impact craters by size.

http://www.unb.ca/passc/ImpactDatabase/CIDiameterSort.html

Note that 20 of them are 40 km or more in diameter and 5 are more than 100 km in diameter. The Sudbury crater is 250 km in diamter and the Vredefort crater 300. Both are significantly bigger than the Cicxulub impact which is thought to have led to the extinction of the dinosaurs.
Of these larger ones, when we look at why they are considered a meteor, we run into speculation. Too much for this thread with all else that is thrown about here to deal with.

How did any life survive if all these catastrophies, massive lava outflows and supervolcanos and huge impacts all occured in 6,000 years of earth history?
Because it was a different world, for one thing. Also, many of these things were not what they think, it seems as well. Many of the actual meteors would have impacted after the flood, or during, when, for over a century, the world was still merged. All nightmare scenarios are based on the present world only, and how things would shake down now if it happened!

Why is there no historical record of any of these events?

In the flood year the population of the world was 8! Any that came down then would have been likely on the other side of the world. Not like it was a big fluke, they were protected, you know, of course.
Then, in the century after, in the still merged world, where a lot of it came down, everything up to and including gravity was different! So it was a piece of cake. Also in that century, man lost the ability to communicate with each other! That'll do it.

The supervolcanoes and massive impacts would have darked the sky and led to many years of very cold weather all over the earth. I would think someone would have noticed. Do you really think life on earth could have survived if all these catatastrophies were really crammed into a 6000 year period?
Dark dreams, my firend, little more.

We keep hearing over and over that YEC look at the same evidence and just intrepret it differently. Is there any YEC interpretation for these data that allows hundreds of millions of years of catatastrophies to be collapsed into 6000 years and allows our survival?
You bet! There is now. Now try to start interpreting properly will you?
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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FB: Large igneous provinces
http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/~polsen/nbcp/lipmc.html
Figure 3.3.3.1: Global LIPs, including oceanic plateaus, volcanic passive margins, continental flood basalts, submarine ridges, seamount groups, and ocean basin flood basalts.

When did these flow out? The Deccan and Siberian traps and Columbia River basalts do not contain pillow lava so they did not flow out under water. Was there even time for them to flow out preflood? Could lava 6,500 feet thick have flowed out post flood and cooled enough by 200 BC, to allow the carving of temples?

dad said:
I can see a few options, the first one that come to mind is the continental seperation. Lots of movement of rock, and grinding, etc. And of course, molten rock. ?
The question is not how they were formed so we can ignore your geological absurdities here. The question is how life survived having all these processes crammed together.

FB:Glenn Morton shows that
the sulfuric acid alone from these massive eruption would have killed off most life on earth.

Dad-No longer applicible then.
The only reason you must consider it no longer applicable is that it falsifies your myth.

FB-What about explosive Super volcanoes? The Toba supervolcano 75,000 years ago was 10,000 times the mount St. Helens eruption. Yellowstone Park sits on the caldera of an ancient supervolcano that last erupted about 600,000 years ago.
dad-I lean toward the position again that this was near the seperation of continents. (I have one last ace, should these things not meet the evidence)
.. .So one would think a lot of fine ground material would be around.
"Ash is just fine-grained material that gets thrown out of a volcano. It is little bits of either pulverized rocks or fragments of lava droplets. It is not the same thing as the ash that results from a fire."
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/frequent_questions/grp9/question3670.html
So you put the supervolcanos at the time of Peleg. Each these massive ash eruptions would diminished sunlight and plunged the whole earth into winter year around. Putting them all together would have led to a massive worldwide nuclear winter just at the time you claim populations were rapidly expanding to spread civilization over the entire earth. Funny that this "nuclear winter" isn't mentioned anywhere, not even in the Bible.


The link is down, so I can't comment on this one.
I was referring to a super volcano eruption the Bruneau-Jarbidge Eruptive Center that killed animals and buried them in ash during the Miocene. The site is called Ashfall in Nebraska

Then there are earth impacts. This data base lists 167 known impact craters by size.

http://www.unb.ca/passc/ImpactDatabase/CIDiameterSort.html


Dad-Of these larger ones, when we look at why they are considered a meteor, we run into speculation. Too much for this thread with all else that is thrown about here to deal with.
There are many things that show that these are impact craters, including the shock quartz and other features. What do you think formed all those craters on the moon? What do you think was happening on earth at the same time?

FB-How did any life survive if all these catastrophies, massive lava outflows and supervolcanos and huge impacts all occured in 6,000 years of earth history?

Because it was a different world, for one thing. Also, many of these things were not what they think, it seems as well. Many of the actual meteors would have impacted after the flood, or during, when, for over a century, the world was still merged. All nightmare scenarios are based on the present world only, and how things would shake down now if it happened!
This is just more dad-hoc nonsense to try to overcome an obvious falsifation of your myth.

In the flood year the population of the world was 8! Any that came down then would have been likely on the other side of the world. Not like it was a big fluke, they were protected, you know, of course.
By what? A force field?
Then, in the century after, in the still merged world, where a lot of it came down, everything up to and including gravity was different! So it was a piece of cake. Also in that century, man lost the ability to communicate with each other! That'll do it.
So all these giant volcanic eruptions were a piece of cake. And these impacts happened with no gravity, but still made big craters. And no one noticed any of their effects. You really are delusional.
FB-We keep hearing over and over that YEC look at the same evidence and just intrepret it differently. Is there any YEC interpretation for these data that allows hundreds of millions of years of catatastrophies to be collapsed into 6000 years and allows our survival?
You bet! There is now. Now try to start interpreting properly will you?
The proper interpretion is that the earth is billions of years old and these catastrophic events are spread over many eons. Your delusions have nothing to back them but your desperate need to believe in your fantasy world.

My question is answered. There is an answer but it is a combination of a delusional fantasy about a world with no gravity and many other features that never existed in the real universe along with ignoring data that are just too inconvenient as "no longer applicable"
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch said:
The question is not how they were formed so we can ignore your geological absurdities here. The question is how life survived having all these processes crammed together.
But how they are formed determines how dangerous they were to life. If we have hot rock oozing up, it is different than a supervolcano, for example. If Sudbury was a fountain of the deep, it is different than a giant comet pummeling into an inhabited earth! Iridium could have come from below, where we know there is the stuff.

FB:Glenn Morton shows that
the sulfuric acid alone from these massive eruption would have killed off most life on earth.
IF it was volcanic in the present sense, or volcanic in many cases at all.


So you put the supervolcanos at the time of Peleg. Each these massive ash eruptions would diminished sunlight and plunged the whole earth into winter year around.
It is ground up rock that makes the ash, not fire. Moving continents would do some grinding, and the material would be there to be dispersed by whatever means. And who would that hurt?

Putting them all together would have led to a massive worldwide nuclear winter just at the time you claim populations were rapidly expanding to spread civilization over the entire earth. Funny that this "nuclear winter" isn't mentioned anywhere, not even in the Bible.
Putting you phantom nightmare explosions together would be grim indeed. Such a dark imagination.


I was referring to a super volcano eruption the Bruneau-Jarbidge Eruptive Center that killed animals and buried them in ash during the Miocene. The site is called Ashfall in Nebraska
Ha, I like the opening line in the article. To me I almost suspect they say these things with a nudge and a wink!
"A Paleontologist's "Field of Dreams"
This one is interesting, I don't know when it would have been. Was it right after the flood, where the big wind blew some of the ash that was brought up from the deep, or someplace? Was it in the century after the flood, as a moving continent spat out some ground up ash, which was carried by winds? Guess it is worth a deeper look at, but certainly as always, old age stories just don't cut the mustard.

There are many things that show that these are impact craters, including the shock quartz and other features. What do you think formed all those craters on the moon? What do you think was happening on earth at the same time?
Many are from impacts. But a lot of the bigger ones, like Mexico, and Sudbury they throw in there are suspect.


By what? A force field?
By the hand of God, who conducted the whole operation, of course. Do you think he would have the ark on the same side of the earth even as a big impact, or volcano? Ridiculous.
So all these giant volcanic eruptions were a piece of cake. And these impacts happened with no gravity, but still made big craters.
What men think are craters are not always craters. You see, they have certain preconceived notions, and operate accordingly. Besides, if something was coming at earth, even if the gravity predesesor did have any different effect, there would still have been velocity.

And no one noticed any of their effects. You really are delusional.
If they were pre flood, in flood, or shortly after the flood, there really were not many witnesses now were there? If a bunch of impacts happened say, in the flood, on the other side of the earth from Noah, how would they even know about it?


The proper interpretion is that the earth is billions of years old and these catastrophic events are spread over many eons.
No, that is your prefered old age belief interpretaions.
Your delusions have nothing to back them but your desperate need to believe in your fantasy world. Why fight it, there is a God.

My question is answered. There is an answer but it is a combination of a delusional fantasy about a world with no gravity and many other features that never existed in the real universe

Just listen to yourself! The "real" universe! You are tring to supplant God's yeaterday, with you puny PO present! What is natural now, was not natural then, neither will be in heaven. The spiritual is natural there. Stop stomping your feet and squawking about a fantasy past you simply cannot evidence. You know nothing of the real universe of the past or future, and I'll be hanged if I let you try to limit the wonderful past, and God's new universe coming to the present PO one!

along with ignoring data that are just too inconvenient as "no longer applicable"
When it comes to ignore- ant, you take the cake.
 
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