Massive study completed on NDEs

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Study On Near-Death Experiences Sheds Light On Consciousness After Death | IFLScience

"Although the patients in the current study could not recall specific details, many had memories with specific themes. According to the National Post, 20% said they felt peaceful and almost one third felt that time had either slowed down or sped up. Some had tranquil experiences and saw bright lights and animals, whereas others felt fear and even recounted the feeling of being dragged through deep water.

Interestingly, 13% of these individuals felt separated from their bodies, and one man recalled leaving his body entirely and watching his resuscitation from the corner of the room. It took three minutes to start this man’s heart again, but he could describe specific details of both the staff and the procedure. He also recalled two beeps from a machine that only makes noise every three minutes.

“We know the brain can’t function when the heart has stopped beating,” Dr. Parnia told National Post. “But in this case conscious awareness appears to have continued for up to three minutes into the period when the heart wasn’t beating, even though the brain typically shuts down within 20-30 seconds after the heart has stopped.”

Although only 2% of patients could explicitly recall ‘seeing’ or ‘hearing’ actual events, because the details were consistent with verified events, it is impossible to discredit them at this stage and more work is needed."



That last sentence is a little bit disturbing to me. The researchers bias is showing. More work is needed to discredit these experiences? Sounds like the researcher has already made up his mind on the subject...

 

[Christian-Catholic]

Study On Near-Death Experiences Sheds Light On Consciousness After Death | IFLScience

"Although the patients in the current study could not recall specific details, many had memories with specific themes. According to the National Post, 20% said they felt peaceful and almost one third felt that time had either slowed down or sped up. Some had tranquil experiences and saw bright lights and animals, whereas others felt fear and even recounted the feeling of being dragged through deep water.

Interestingly, 13% of these individuals felt separated from their bodies, and one man recalled leaving his body entirely and watching his resuscitation from the corner of the room. It took three minutes to start this man’s heart again, but he could describe specific details of both the staff and the procedure. He also recalled two beeps from a machine that only makes noise every three minutes.

“We know the brain can’t function when the heart has stopped beating,” Dr. Parnia told National Post. “But in this case conscious awareness appears to have continued for up to three minutes into the period when the heart wasn’t beating, even though the brain typically shuts down within 20-30 seconds after the heart has stopped.”

Although only 2% of patients could explicitly recall ‘seeing’ or ‘hearing’ actual events, because the details were consistent with verified events, it is impossible to discredit them at this stage and more work is needed."



That last sentence is a little bit disturbing to me. The researchers bias is showing. More work is needed to discredit these experiences? Sounds like the researcher has already made up his mind on the subject...

Parnia already knows that the evidence is strong fir Nde's not being generated by the brain and is leaning towards the side that says that Nde's are the real thing . The great part if this are the veridical Nde's which are pointing heavily against Nde's being hallucinations.

Remember that parnia has come along ways since he was an invited guest at atheist/skeptic conferences just a few years back so he will always have some of that tendency towards his old ways , but parnia now knows that the evidences is hugely in favor if life after death.

Also remember that parnia has another alterior motive here that everyone familiar with him knows about. His main reason for doing these studies is to study methods to help bring patients back from clinical death that were considered impossible to bring back before.

I'm pretty sure that parnia has changed his mind and tang he now knows that the evidence shows strongly that Nde's aren't a product of the brain .

The evidence keep piling on and parnia keeps leaning closer and closer towards the pro nde side but he needs to keep that funding coming and that is why I believe he said what he said at the end of the article .

Fir skeptics that don't believe in the afterlife this is a huge nightmare for them and it's only going to get worse .

 

[juvenissun]

Study On Near-Death Experiences Sheds Light On Consciousness After Death | IFLScience


That last sentence is a little bit disturbing to me. The researchers bias is showing. More work is needed to discredit these experiences? Sounds like the researcher has already made up his mind on the subject...

He is doing a very significant work as a scientist. If I were him, I would say the same thing regardless of my belief. This is a study by examples. The more positive examples, the more confidence one would have.

 

[Heissonear]

Man was not created to be a physical-only being. Man is triune, having a body, soul, and spirit.

Because of our spirit our soul continues to exist when the body dies. No brainer to understand except for Naturalists, who do not understand the Spiritual Realm.

It is the Spiritual Realm that unbelievers on CF show serious ignorance, even arrogantly stating only the physical realm exists, but it is clearly obvious that they are in Spiritual Poverty.

The Bible clearly states we are to mind our spirit in predominance over minding the flesh. One side is eternal and the other side is temporal. Add to that what is to be learned: some think the physical realm has a depth of things to learn about!!!

 

[Paulos23]

They are being resestated, normally at the end of someone doing CPR. Blood is still going to the brain and it is still getting oxegen so it can function. The artical even says the brain doesn't shut down after the heart stops.

I don't see this as proof of NDE, I see it as evidence of the brain making stuff up based on the last seconds as it is funtioning poorly before it shuts down.

The fact that the NDE experance can be reproduced with drugs is an indication this is a physical phonominon in the brain and not a spiritual one.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/nde-update/

 

[Michael]

They are being resestated, normally at the end of someone doing CPR. Blood is still going to the brain and it is still getting oxegen so it can function. The artical even says the brain doesn't shut down after the heart stops.

I don't see this as proof of NDE, I see it as evidence of the brain making stuff up based on the last seconds as it is funtioning poorly before it shuts down.

The fact that the NDE experance can be reproduced with drugs is an indication this is a physical phonominon in the brain and not a spiritual one.

NDE Update « Science-Based Medicine

That's not necessarily true. That simply demonstrates that various physical phenomenon can trigger the event, including a gunshot to the head. Any number of physical factors might be able to "trigger" the separation between body and soul, even in modern mathematical models of soul:

Discovery of quantum vibrations in 'microtubules' inside brain neurons supports controversial theory of consciousness -- ScienceDaily
Quantum Consciousness

 

[selfinflikted]

IF the "spirit" or "soul" lives beyond our death, how come NDE's aren't reported one hundred percent of the time?

 

[Michael]

IF the "spirit" or "soul" lives beyond our death, how come NDE's aren't reported one hundred percent of the time?

Why would you necessarily expect that to be true in the first place? You'll note that the percentage of atheists vs. theists that have them is statistically insignificant.

 

[selfinflikted]

Why would you necessarily expect that to be true in the first place? You'll note that the percentage of atheists vs. theists that have them is statistically insignificant.

No, I mean people (of any or no faith) that are resuscitated from clinical death. Why are NDE's not reported 100% of the time? I would expect them to be, if it were something other than brain chemistry at work (e.g. spirit or soul or whatever).

 

[juvenissun]

IF the "spirit" or "soul" lives beyond our death, how come NDE's aren't reported one hundred percent of the time?

I think it would be a great achievement if the experience was "reported" to investigators even 10% of the time. I think this kind of report is very scarce. Otherwise, people would have already drawn some kind of data-supported conclusion about it.

How much data has been collected on people who "died" longer than 3 minutes and came back in conscious? Could we evaluate that kind of data equally with those reported by people who recovered from a 30-second heart stop? I don't think so.

 

[juvenissun]

No, I mean people (of any or no faith) that are resuscitated from clinical death. Why are NDE's not reported 100% of the time? I would expect them to be, if it were something other than brain chemistry at work (e.g. spirit or soul or whatever).

I believe it is because no researcher asked them any question about it. A normal medical doctor usually do not ask any question about NDE. Hospital should routinely report such type of cases to some kind of research institute.

 

[Paulos23]

That's not necessarily true. That simply demonstrates that various physical phenomenon can trigger the event, including a gunshot to the head. Any number of physical factors might be able to "trigger" the separation between body and soul, even in modern mathematical models of soul:

Discovery of quantum vibrations in 'microtubules' inside brain neurons supports controversial theory of consciousness -- ScienceDaily
Quantum Consciousness

Until a non-physical phenomenon is shown to trigger the event, I will error on the side that NDE has a physical cause. And death/almost dead is a physical event with many chemical changes happening in the brain.

 

[Michael]

Until a non-physical phenomenon is shown to trigger the event, I will error on the side that NDE has a physical cause.

What is a non-physical phenomenon? Even as a theist I would assume that it has a "physical cause", i.e. the death of the person, and/or the separation of the soul from the brain, which I would also assume is a "physical" process.

And death/almost dead is a physical event with many chemical changes happening in the brain.

And which chemical change are you claiming is responsible for the effect, and what evidence do you have to support it? The Lancet study even looked at drugs, oxygen deprivation, and chemical causes and found no cause/effect links.

 

[jayem]

And which chemical change are you claiming is responsible for the effect, and what evidence do you have to support it? The Lancet study even looked at drugs, oxygen deprivation, and chemical causes and found no cause/effect links.

Where was this mentioned? I didn't see anything in the IFL article referring to hypoxia, or specific neurochemical changes being studied. The only reference to drugs was Dr. Parnia's claim that they could have impaired some patients' recall of their NDEs. The linked Lancet abstract also didn't mention this.

What Parnia documented was that 16.5% of patients surviving cardiac arrest (39% of the 140 who were able to complete surveys) retrospectively reported some awareness of the time period before resuscitation. (And only 2% of those reported specific details.) This is the quote:

They found that 39% of these individuals described some awareness of the time preceding resuscitation, i.e. when their hearts had stopped beating.

Right there is an unsupported statement. How do the researchers know there was no cardiac activity at this time? Were they all on cardiac monitors before cardiac arrest? I've seen resuscitation started on folks who's hearts are still beating, just very slowly, or too weakly to feel a pulse. Neither the article, nor the abstract gives any details about the study group, i.e., their ages, diagnoses, treatments they were getting, etc. There's also no details on the patients' social, educational, and religious backgrounds. I would hope the full study provides this, because the number of variables that can affect the results is enormous.

I don't doubt that some people reports NDEs. But nothing in this study even remotely suggests that anything supernatural is happening. The article mentions a brief spike in neural activity at or near the time of death. That's been documented even in rats.

Surge of neurophysiological coheren... [Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI

All this means is that parts of the brain remain active for a time during reduced or absent blood flow. There is no reason to conclude that this is anything but a natural physiological process.

 

[Michael]

Where was this mentioned? I didn't see anything in the IFL article referring to hypoxia, or specific neurochemical changes being studied.

I'm sorry. I should have made it more clear that my comments related to probable cause applied to an *earlier* (2001) study on NDE's, one published originally in the Lancet.

Lancet Study on NDEs

If you click on the bottom link, it will download the PDF.

That study *did* try to look at common probable physical causes, but found no physical cause/effect connection between them.

All this means is that parts of the brain remain active for a time during reduced or absent blood flow. There is no reason to conclude that this is anything but a natural physiological process.

Even assuming that Orch-OR theory is correct, it is actually a "physical'' process that's taking place that is responsible for these experiences, along with the fact (assumption of the theory) that consciousness is an intrinsic part of nature. Even I'm assuming that there is an actual physical 'cause' which produces the experience.

 

[46AND2]

They found that 39% of these individuals described some awareness of the time preceding resuscitation, i.e. when their hearts had stopped beating.

Right there is an unsupported statement. How do the researchers know there was no cardiac activity at this time? Were they all on cardiac monitors before cardiac arrest? I've seen resuscitation started on folks who's hearts are still beating, just very slowly, or too weakly to feel a pulse.

Not to mention the point that, particularly for those who didn't express specific recollections, there is no way to know that this "awareness" was after, or just prior to, cardiac arrest. Even if the patient is on a heart monitor before during and after the event, it's highly unlikely that the researcher could pinpoint exactly when the awareness occurred, especially for those (the vast majority) who couldn't recall specific events. For all we know, their "awareness" did not come until the brain got flooded with oxygen again immediately after resuscitation.

 

[loveofourlord]

Too bad the one thing this study was SUPPOSED to show wasn't in effect in the two places it would have helped. Yes there is the 2 that report seeing and hearing things, unfortunetly A) They were interviewed 2 years later about what they heard, and B) the cards that are there to verify that they are actually seeing stuff and not just things added to memories later wre missing. Thats the whole point, people can create these stories in their head by influence, but if they were real there be something that would help.

Wich is the playing card ontop of a tall object with a sign saying, "Read me." or something like that, THAT would be good evidence, someones stories later isn't good evidence as much as I believe in life after death. Lets also not forget that muslims see a muslim afterlife, bhudists see a bhudist afterlife and such.

 

[46AND2]

Lets also not forget that muslims see a muslim afterlife, bhudists see a bhudist afterlife and such.

Do you have a source for this? I was curious about it, but couldn't find anything online to confirm or contradict it.

 

[loveofourlord]

Do you have a source for this? I was curious about it, but couldn't find anything online to confirm or contradict it.

I will have to look it up, I hear it alot, it's alot like miracles, everyone has them and think it helps their beliefs, I belive in Jesus and miracles and life after death, but it doesn't help our credability when we see evidence that isn't there.

 

[stevevw]

I believe the NDE can also happen just before death. Visit a palliative care hospital and see for yourself what can happen. I have seen it myself. I believe that the hours leading up to death a person can be seeing into the spiritual realm. They are already starting to drift into death and can see things.