Masons

[Cactus Jack]

Gee, Albi, was it something we said? No one seems to want to talk to us anymore.

Explain to me the correlation between the Free Masons and the Illuminati and how the Y2K whackjobs came up with the idea the FM are in conspirqcy with the US Government, UN, NASA, MI6, Mossad and a variety of space aliens species....

Seriously.

I know only the rumors and garbage they spread about back when Y2k was coming up and now it really hasn't gotten much better, they just changed their stories.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Explain to me the correlation between the Free Masons and the Illuminati

Far as I know, there is no Illuminati, so it's impossible for there to be a "correlation" with that which does not exist. I mean, if you have better information on the matter, by all means, let me know where their offices are headquartered, or post me a link to their website, I'd be glad to go check them out.

As for the other stuff, you'll find wackos in every age and in every shape and form. Just let them get a whiff of an imagined "secret," and they're on it like a pig to mud or a cow to cud. Y2K simply gave them a launching pad for their salvos. Not that they really need one.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Page 16, some possibility the thread ran its course.

^^bump

With a topic as wide-open as this? Not very likely.

Could be the accusers have finally come to recognize what we knew all along, that they really have little to say. Either that, or they all scurried back to more comfortable territory, which some of them certainly do have the privilege of enjoying, of a home forum where they can control what everybody says, invent imaginary Masonic posters for the purpose of putting into Masons' mouths what they WISH Masons would say so they can take potshots at it, and where they can delete comments that refute their arguments (or play shell games and shuffle them to unrelated contexts elsewhere on the boards).

Not sure whether you yourself will even understand the comments, but those for whom this is a very accurate description will get the point, I'm sure. Their poor reputation as purveyors of "truth" has been well-earned. Understandably, not many are willing to step up and take their place.

 

[Albion]

Explain to me the correlation between the Free Masons and the Illuminati and how the Y2K whackjobs came up with the idea the FM are in conspirqcy with the US Government, UN, NASA, MI6, Mossad and a variety of space aliens species....

Seriously.

I know only the rumors and garbage they spread about back when Y2k was coming up and now it really hasn't gotten much better, they just changed their stories.

The Illuminati allegedly were a rebel, unauthorized, group of European Masons who, during the time of the French Revolution, attempted to control the selection of the new king and, by extension, to do the same in other countries. If they existed, there is no evidence that they continued on in later years. And even if they did exist, these plotters were not real Masons. And if they even did exist--and we call them Masons for the sake of the argument--British and American Masonry has never had any connection to Continental European Masonry which it considers to be a separate organization.

The rest of the conspiracy theories you mentioned come, I think, from the idea that some Illuminati-type group of elite plotters must exist somewhere and, since the story about the Illuminati is known and is historic, the conclusion is that it has morphed into any other modern conspiracy you want to point to or imagine. Of course, the less real evidence there is (which is to say, none) the more the conspiracy theorist is convinced that the conspirators' deceptions are working!

 

[Ecclectic79]

Far as I know, there is no Illuminati, so it's impossible for there to be a "correlation" with that which does not exist. I mean, if you have better information on the matter, by all means, let me know where their offices are headquartered, or post me a link to their website, I'd be glad to go check them out.

Might be important to specify that there was at least a Bavarian Illuminati under Adam Weishaupt. While YouTube is prone to be an even less reliable source of info than Wikipedia I do remember seeing a bit of information that seemed believable enough in that it didn't particularly help an agenda in and of itself. Supposedly George Washington was quite concerned about the Illuminati and wrote several letters I believe to a friend and pastor. He was mostly concerned in those letters (again - if real, I haven't had the chance to vet that info) that remnants of that then defunct order might be trying to infiltrate and corrupt speculative Freemasonry in the US.

From what you, Albion, and some other people would tell me about your experiences of speculative Masonry these days it sounds like, if that faction did at some point find its way into Freemasonry, it likely didn't stay long and perhaps found its way into other organizations. Typically when I hear rumors of wildly evil stuff like Satanic ritual abuse etc. (again - stuff that's in my pool to confirm/debunk one of these days but quite sadly only 24 hours in a day) the name Bohemian Grove always seems to come up. As I'd admit though, a lot of that's still way off in my peripheral vision so I have no idea what to make of it; whether there's something to it or whether I'd find it more rubbish than reality once I was able to research it to my satisfaction.

I do however get the feeling that the Babylonian mystery schools are very much alive, well, and even lived in certain circles. Also while I hear that Pythagoras's writings were destroyed in the Hellenistic period and while there were many neoplatonic knock-offs of the Pythagorean cult which were all essentially vacuous promises of secrets with very little in the way of actual substance, Pythagoras's teachings seem much to revered in terms of their purported value to have simply been wiped off the face of the Earth. My guess is that their utter destruction and loss to history may simply be the official/public narrative given to those considered common and/or vulgar.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Might be important to specify that there was at least a Bavarian Illuminati under Adam Weishaupt.

Duly noted. My comments, of course, given the query, were restricted to what "is" rather than "was."

 

[Albion]

Might be important to specify that there was at least a Bavarian Illuminati under Adam Weishaupt. While YouTube is prone to be an even less reliable source of info than Wikipedia I do remember seeing a bit of information that seemed believable enough in that it didn't particularly help an agenda in and of itself. Supposedly George Washington was quite concerned about the Illuminati and wrote several letters I believe to a friend and pastor. He was mostly concerned in those letters (again - if real, I haven't had the chance to vet that info) that remnants of that then defunct order might be trying to infiltrate and corrupt speculative Freemasonry in the US.

From what you, Albion, and some other people would tell me about your experiences of speculative Masonry these days it sounds like, if that faction did at some point find its way into Freemasonry, it likely didn't stay long and perhaps found its way into other organizations.

I'm not denying the existence of Adam Weishaupt and some followers of his, but the information about them is very limited and even the main source of information describes the Illuminati's efforts as rumored. I can't comment on Washington's letters, but I see no evidence whatsoever of European Masonry having any foot in American Masonry. Washington was the head of a lodge of American (Virginia) Masons and he denied having much to do with English Masonry. Because there is no international Masonic organization, this was an important distinction in the minds of patriots, but there is nothing--to my knowledge--that would indicate that any faction of Continental Masonry gained any foothold anywhere.

 

[Ecclectic79]

I'm not denying the existence of Adam Weishaupt and some followers of his, but the information about them is very limited and even the main source of information describes the Illuminati's efforts as rumored. I can't comment on Washington's letters, but I see no evidence whatsoever of European Masonry having any foot in American Masonry. Washington was the head of a lodge of American (Virginia) Masons and he denied having much to do with English Masonry. Because there is no international Masonic organization, this was an important distinction in the minds of patriots, but there is nothing--to my knowledge--that would indicate that any faction of Continental Masonry gained any foothold anywhere.

Quite possibly not.

The way such stories stay relevant though seems to be through the stories themselves. Seems like when you have an organization that creates a powerful enough concept that the organization becomes secondary to the concept itself you have an organization that can be extinguished but its like extinguishing a trick candle, ie. it'll be lit right back up again organically if and when you get the right people in a room under the same ideas and inspirations. That could have been GW's concern, again with the caveat of if that info is correct.

 

[Albion]

Quite possibly not.

The way such stories stay relevant though seems to be through the stories themselves. Seems like when you have an organization that creates a powerful enough concept that the organization becomes secondary to the concept itself you have an organization that can be extinguished but its like extinguishing a trick candle, ie. it'll be lit right back up again organically if and when you get the right people in a room under the same ideas and inspirations. That could have been GW's concern, again with the caveat of if that info is correct.

I guess I can't say more without reading the letters carefully, but it sounds as though there wasn't much to this.

 

[Rev Wayne]

To Rev. G.W. Snyder, 9/25/1798

I have heard much of the nefarious, and dangerous plan, and doctrines of the Illuminati, but never saw the Book until you were pleased to send it to me. The same causes which have prevented my acknowledging the receipt of your letter have prevented my reading the Book, hitherto; namely, the multiplicity of matters which pressed upon me before, and the debilitated state in which I was left after, a severe fever had been removed. And which allows me to add little more now, than thanks for your kind wishes and favourable sentiments, except to correct an error you have run into, of my Presiding over the English lodges in this Country. The fact is, I preside over none, nor have I been in one more than once or twice, within the last thirty years. I believe notwithstanding, that none of the Lodges in this Country are contaminated with the principles ascribed to the Society of the Illuminati. With respect I am &c.

Apparently Washington didn't think there was much to it either.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Totally disappointed in my latest acquisition, The Origins of Freemasonry, by David Stevenson. I figured with the credentials the guy had, this was going to be a bona fide work (he's professor of Scottish History at U. of St. Andrews, & it's printed by Cambridge UP). Then I began to read. First, there is his acknowledgment he's not even a Mason, then he starts making all these references to some of the influences that were around in pre-1717 (Modern Era) Scotland. Then comes the point at which I have to say I can't go with him. He frankly acknowledges that there is absolutely no historical basis for making any assertion that Freemasonry had any of the influences he mentioned, because there is no document anywhere in which evidence of it can be detected. Yet he insists on the premise that with such influences around, "there just HAD to be a link between" them and Freemasonry.

I'm sure for some folks this stuff might pass for "research," but there'a a lot of guesswork being done in what this author presents.

 

[Ecclectic79]

Totally disappointed in my latest acquisition, The Origins of Freemasonry, by David Stevenson. I figured with the credentials the guy had, this was going to be a bona fide work (he's professor of Scottish History at U. of St. Andrews, & it's printed by Cambridge UP). Then I began to read. First, there is his acknowledgment he's not even a Mason, then he starts making all these references to some of the influences that were around in pre-1717 (Modern Era) Scotland. Then comes the point at which I have to say I can't go with him. He frankly acknowledges that there is absolutely no historical basis for making any assertion that Freemasonry had any of the influences he mentioned, because there is no document anywhere in which evidence of it can be detected. Yet he insists on the premise that with such influences around, "there just HAD to be a link between" them and Freemasonry.

What was his charge? Rosicrucianism?

 

[Rev Wayne]

A hodgepodge, really, of Enlightenment, Hermeticism, Renaissance, with a hefty dose of Frances Yates' The Art of Memory tossed in for good measure.

Not really done assessing it. To be fair, I'm gonna have to get past my problems with assumptions about things that "just HAVE to be there" when the lack of any evidence to support it suggests the contrary.

 

[Cactus Jack]

Rev. Wayne, it seems Jesse Ventura wishes to disagree.
Video Proof of the Underground Cities in America Clear Evidence Irrefutable Film - YouTube

 

[Rev Wayne]

THE Jesse Ventura?? That veritable fountain of wisdom?

You almost made me choke on my chimichanga.

 

[Skip Sampson]

I had noted previously my conclusion that the KY GL promoted a salvation by works concept in its ritual, and stated that I would provide the details underlying that conclusion. I have emphasized key parts in the quotes and have included a few explanatory notes at the end of the article.

The Bible teaches the concept of salvation by faith:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. (John 3:16 – 18)

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Ephesians 2:6 – 8)

So we earn salvation only by faith in Jesus Christ, not by anything we do ourselves. The works we do are those God has called us to do, not those we choose for ourselves.

Salvation by works, as taught by Masonry, holds that a man can improve himself through Masonic lessons, and thereby help those around us; and his reward for such good works is salvation. You will see from the following quotes how Masonry in KY, as does Masonry everywhere, teaches just that concept. The main sources used are the KY GL Kentucky Monitor, 1990, and the Kentucky Ritual (Note 1). Unless otherwise indicated, quotes are from the Monitor.

Before noting the proof, it is useful to consider the context within which they occur. Consider the other claims Masonry makes, also from the same sources:

1. The KY GL considers itself thusly:

This is because Masonry is a religious institution, and we thereby show our dependence upon and our trust in God. (EA Degree, pg. 28)

The Lodge in which these things occur is claimed to be erected to God and dedicated to St. John the Baptist and St. John the Evangelist, the candidate is expected to join in a partnership with God through the auspices of Freemasonry, and takes pretty violent obligations and oaths “in the presence of Almighty God” and seeks his help in keeping them.

2. Here’s how the Lodge sees the candidate for Masonry:

There you stood without our portals, on the threshold of this new Masonic life, in darkness, helplessness, and ignorance. Having been wandering amid the errors and covered over with the pollutions of the outer and profane world, you came inquiringly to our doors, seeking the new birth, and asking a withdrawal of the veil which concealed the divine truth from your uninitiated sight. (EA Degree, pg. 26)

3. The Lodge informs that man that his Masonic duty is to build within himself a spiritual temple, to so improve himself that he becomes a fit dwelling place for God.

4. He is also informed that the Master Mason’s Lodge is a representative of the Holy of Holies, which was the dwelling place of God in King Solomon’s Temple. The implications are unmistakable.

Here, then, are the sections which denote the salvation by works mentality of KY Masonry.

You are undoubtedly aware that whatever a man may have acquired here on earth, whether it be wealth, titles, honors, or even his own reputation, will not serve him as a passport into the celestial lodge above, but previous to his gaining admission there he must become poor and penniless, blind and naked, dependent upon the sovereign will of our Supreme Grand Master. (EA Degree, pg. 5)

You were presented a Lambskin or white leathern apron. The lamb has in all ages been deemed an emblem of innocence. By the lambskin, therefore, the Mason is reminded of that purity of life and conduct which is essential to his gaining admission to the Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides. (EA Degree, pg. 32)

You were presented with the lamb-skin, the true badge of a Mason, because the lamb has, in all ages, been deemed an emblem of innocence; he, therefore, who wears the lamb-skin, as a badge of Masonry, is thereby continually reminded of that purity of life and conduct which is essential necessary to his gaining admission into the celestial lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides. (Note 2) (EA Ritual, pgs. 53 – 54)

Its spotless white is emblematical of that purity of life and uprightness of personal manhood so essential to gaining admission into that celestial lodge above. (Apron Presentation, EA ritual, pg. 31)

The Covering of a Lodge is no less than the clouded canopy or starry-decked heaven, where all good Masons hope at last to arrive, by the aid of that theological ladder which Jacob, in his vision, saw extending from earth to heaven, the three principal rounds of which are denominated Faith, Hope and charity, and which admonish us to have faith in God, the Great Architect of the Universe, hope in immortality, and charity, or love, to all mankind. (EA Degree, pg. 41)

The symbolism of the Entered Apprentice Degree is the entrance of man into the world, or from ignorance and darkness into moral and intellectual light, which will guide his steps and point him to the path that leads to duty and to Him who gives to duty its reward. (EA Degree, pg. 53)

The plumb admonishes us to walk uprightly in our several stations before God and men, squaring our actions by the square of virtue, ....

The Square teaches us to regulate our lives and actions according to Masonic line and rule and so to harmonize our conduct in this life as to render us acceptable to that Divine Being from whom all goodness springs and to whom we must give an account of all our actions. (FC Degree, pg. 68)

Thus the Square teaches morality, the Level equality, and the Plumb justice and uprightness of life and actions. So by square conduct, level steps, and upright intentions, we hope to ascend to those blessed mansions whence all goodness emanates. (FC Degree, pg. 69)

The Three Steps, usually delineated upon the Master’s Carpet, are emblematical of the three principal stages of human life—Youth, Manhood, and Age. In Youth, as Entered Apprentices, we ought industriously to occupy our minds in the attainment of useful knowledge; in Manhood, as Fellow Crafts, we should apply our knowledge to the discharge of our respective duties to God, our neighbor, and ourselves; so that in Age, as Master Masons, we may enjoy the happy reflections consequent upon a well-spend life, and die in the hope of a glorious immortality. (MM Degree, pgs. 144 - 145)

The Sword Pointing to a Naked Heart demonstrates that justice will sooner or later overtake us; and although our thoughts, words, and actions may be hidden from the eyes of men, yet that All-Seeing eye, whom the Sun, Moon, and Stars obey, and under whose watchful care even Comets perform their stupendous evolutions, pervades the inmost recesses of the human Heart and will reward us according to our merits. (MM Degree, pgs.147 – 148)

Be ye careful to perform your alloted (sic) task while yet day, for ye know not when the time is; ye know not when the Master cometh—at even, at midnight, or in the morning. Continue to listen to the voice of Nature, typified by the Sprig of Acacia, that ever-green and ever-living FAITH in the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah (Note 3), which bears witness that even in this perishable frame resides a vital and immortal principle, which inspires a holy confidence that the Lord of Life will enable us to trample the king of terrors beneath our feet, and strengthens us with confidence and composure to look forward to a blessed immortality; and we doubt not that on the glorious morn of the Resurrection our bodies will rise and become as incorruptible as our souls.

And now, my brethren, let us see to it, and so regulate our lives by the plumb line of justice, ever squaring our actions by the square of virtue, that when the Grand Warden of Heaven shall call for us, we may be found ready. Let us cultivate assiduously the noble tenets of our profession, brotherly love, relief, and truth; from the square learn morality; from the level equality; and from the plumb rectitude of conduct.

Then let us imitate our G.M.H.A. (Note 4) in all his varied perfection. Let us emulate his amiable and virtuous character, his unfeigned piety to God, and his inflexible fidelity to his trust, that, like him, we may welcome the grim tyrant Death, and receive him as a kind messenger sent by our Supreme Grand Master to translate us from this imperfect to that all-perfect, glorious, and celestial Lodge above, where the Great Architect of the Universe presides, forever reigns. (MM Degree, pgs. 151 – 152)

Then, brethren, let us endeavor to imitate our Grand Master Hiram Abif, in his virtuous conduct, his unfeigned piety to God, and his inflexible fidelity to his trust; that, like him, we may welcome the grim tyrant, death, and receive him as a kind messenger sent by our Supreme Grand Master to translate us from this imperfect to that all-perfect, glorious, and celestial lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides. (MM Ritual, pg. 243)

Our brother has completed his labors here on earth, where he wrought diligently during his allotted hours, and has gone to join that higher Lodge, where, under the scrutinizing eye of the Master Builder, all our work must be proved and tried. (Funeral Service, pg.169)

Note 1 – Kentucky issues two ritual books. The first, date uncertain, but recent, is titled Kentucky Ritual and is the ritual used in that jurisdiction. The second, published in 2008, is titled Th Ky Rtl, and reflects the original Virginia ritual. I’ve used the former in my quotes.

Note 2 – Given that Masonry views the candidate as lost and in darkness prior to admission, the fact the he is now given an emblem of innocence implies a degree of purification has occurred. The KY GL does not address this issue directly, but the SC GL certainly does:

We no longer make use of the bath or the fountain, because in our philosophical system, the symbolism is more abstract; but we present the candidate with the apron, the gauge, and the gavel, as symbols, of a spiritual purification. The design is the same, but the mode in which it is accomplished is different. (SC GL, Ahimon Rezon, 2010, pg. 80)

It is quite clear that Freemasonry seeks a mental, moral and spiritual transformation in all its adherents, and one might question just what ‘spirit’ is at work through Masonry’s initiatic tradition.

Note 3 – One cannot conclude that Masonic use of the “Lion of the Tribe of Judah” has a Christian meaning, as Freemasonry generally redefines the phrase to lessen its identification with Jesus. For example, here is how the phrase was handled in an earlier version (8th edition, 1946) of the Kentucky Monitor:

The symbolism of “direction,” the craftsmen who traveled north, east, west, and south, in which the summer and winter solstices and the spring and autumnal equinoxes were situated at the inception of the Ancient Mysteries, have served the fix the Celestial East of the summer solstice, when the body of Light was raised, in the sign of the Lion of the Zodiac, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, as the home and source of perfect light;... (pg. xviii)

Note 4 – The fictional Hiram Abif in Masonry is the Masonic messiah, and was noted as one of many such ‘messiahs’ in the 1946 version of the Kentucky Monitor The reference was deleted sometime after that, but the thought lives on. The injunction to emulate Hiram Abif was taken from Jeremy Cross’ The True Masonic Chart, but modified somewhat. Cross’ original statement started thusly:

Then let us emulate the Christian in his virtuous and amiable conduct; in his unfeigned piety to God;

Many Christian references were removed from Masonic documentation in the early 19th century to make it more acceptable to men of other faiths.

Cordially, Skip.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Were I to use the tactics of an anti-Mason, however, I might ask you what else Jesus commanded his followers to do that you have no problem with people disregarding.

You are wrong on both counts. Baptism is a sign of obedience, not salvation. If the SA wishes to use a different ceremony for such obedience, they are welcome to do so as they will answer for it to God, not me.

I think it safe to say that all Christians are disobedience to God, in one way or another, and it is something that will lesson as we conform ourselves to Jesus, and let the Spirit lead us. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Albion]

You are wrong on both counts. Baptism is a sign of obedience, not salvation.

You speak confidently of that, even though it represents what is very much a minority opinion among Christians. Therefore, it's easy to understand that you speak only for yourself when it comes to your criticisms of Masonry.

 

[Drudgeon]

You are wrong on both counts. Baptism is a sign of obedience, not salvation. If the SA wishes to use a different ceremony for such obedience, they are welcome to do so as they will answer for it to God, not me.

I think it safe to say that all Christians are disobedience to God, in one way or another, and it is something that will lesson as we conform ourselves to Jesus, and let the Spirit lead us. Cordially, Skip.

You don't seem to understand my point. I clearly stated that I am familiar with the reasoning behind your beliefs. Therefore, it would be uncharitable of me to say something like that you seem to be ok with ignoring the Great Commission. While to someone who doesn't understand SB soteriology, this would seem true on the face of it, it is obviously incorrect as you have pointed out above.

Selective quoting and selective outrage are the hallmarks of anti-Masonry. You've admitted that it's up to God to judge a denomination that teaches contrary to the Great Commission on the subject of baptism. You've stated that you "have no problem with it, though [you] don't agree with it". Yet you spend so much time and energy rallying against what you perceive as a religion that teaches salvation through membership, though you freely admit that few to no Masons believe this. Stating again that I understand Southern Baptist soteriology, I have to ask: Why is the active defiance of Christ's own spoken command less offensive to you than a made-up problem that affects essentially zero percent of Masons?

I have too many beams in my eyes to go looking for others' motes. Would that all were even as myself! Unfortunately, sooner or later, we have to begin to wonder if an anti-Salvationist "ministry" would be as lucrative, given the fascination with Freemasonry.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Baptism is a sign of obedience, not salvation.

Where did you get that one, Skip, pluck it right out of the air? Aren't you Southern Baptist? What do you do when they teach these things, daydream?

Water baptism is the outward sign and ritual that Southern Baptists use to express salvation. (Robert Allen, "Foundational Beliefs of Southern Baptists," Opposing Views website)

The New Testament clearly teaches that a local church is only to be comprised of those persons whose allegiance belongs exclusively to Jesus Christ,” Norman writes [R. Stanton Norman, professor at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary]. “Baptism was the divinely, publicly instituted ‘point of entry’ into the membership of a local congregation of believers.

“The baptismal act publicly signified the transition of the individual from the old life to the new life in Christ; old allegiances were forsaken in order that new allegiances with Christ and His people could be formed. The believer gave testimony to this spiritual transition in the rite of baptism. (Baptist Press, 7/24/2006)

Most Baptists believe that baptism is a rich symbol. By this we mean that baptism in itself does not convey salvation or transformation, but it is a sign of what has happened in a spiritual sense to a new believer. ("Believer's Baptism," William H. Brackney)

In other words, a sign of salvation, though not a means of it.

The covenantal view holds that baptism is not a means of spiritual rebirth, but a sign and seal of God's covenant of salvation. (Christian Bible Reference website)

A sign AND a seal of salvation.

The baptizing of a person, whether as an infant or an adult, is a sign of God’s saving grace. ("By Water & the Spirit, a United Methodist Understanding of Baptism")