Masons

[Skip Sampson]

You speak confidently of that, even though it represents what is very much a minority opinion among Christians.

At issue is not the number of people who agree with it, but whether it's the truth. Baptism is not necessary for salvation, according to the Bible, as the verses I quoted indicate.

Therefore, it's easy to understand that you speak only for yourself when it comes to your criticisms of Masonry.

You have discovered the obvious, I see. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Yet you spend so much time and energy rallying against what you perceive as a religion that teaches salvation through membership,

Not really. I criticize Freemasonry for teaching the concept of salvation by works to its members. It is the formal position of Freemasonry in KY, as I have pointed out, and in all other U.S. jurisdictions.

though you freely admit that few to no Masons believe this.

Whether Masons believe it or not is irrelevant. It's what is taught by the GL authority that's the issue.

Why is the active defiance of Christ's own spoken command less offensive to you than a made-up problem that affects essentially zero percent of Masons?

It's not an active defense on my part. I merely note my disagreement with it and let it go. The mode of baptism, or it's absence, does not affect salvation; thus, it is of less importance to me. That Masonry teaches doctrine directly contradictory to that stated in the Bible is a problem made up by Masonry. I just point it out. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Aren't you Southern Baptist?

Indeed, and here is their position, which is mine as well (emphasis added):

Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. (SBC website on Basic Beliefs)

Cordially, Skip.

 

[Albion]

At issue is not the number of people who agree with it, but whether it's the truth.

It's not. But that isn't the point. It's that you are sincerely committed to this offbeat view of the sacrament...which says something about your opposition to Masonry. It's just your own theory, and you are mistaken. It's nothing more compelling than that.

 

[Rev Wayne]

As usual, highlighting the wrong things in what you quote. You said earlier:

Baptism is a sign of obedience, not salvation.

And here's what you're saying NOW:

Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water. It is an act of obedience symbolizing (1) the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, (2) the believer's death to sin, (3) the burial of the old life, (4) and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. (SBC website on Basic Beliefs)

Wow, you had four different things it signifies that you could have chosen from, and yet you chose the ONLY thing in that statement that was NOT part of what it signifies. And all four of those things symbolized are a part of exactly what I stated, salvation.

You need to learn the difference between a sign and an act, because that's where your error occurs here. The obedience is an ACT, not a SIGN.

 

[Drudgeon]

Not really. I criticize Freemasonry for teaching the concept of salvation by works to its members. It is the formal position of Freemasonry in KY, as I have pointed out, and in all other U.S. jurisdictions.

Not only do the overwhelming majority of Masons not interpret Grand Lodge teachings in this manner, no Grand Lodge claims to teach any method of salvation, as Freemasonry is not a church.

Whether Masons believe it or not is irrelevant. It's what is taught by the GL authority that's the issue.

It doesn't matter whether Southern Baptists believe in killing disobedient children. It's what's taught in Deuteronomy that's the issue. Right?

It's not an active defense on my part.

What? The word I used was defiance.

I merely note my disagreement with it and let it go. The mode of baptism, or it's absence, does not affect salvation; thus, it is of less importance to me. That Masonry teaches doctrine directly contradictory to that stated in the Bible is a problem made up by Masonry. I just point it out. Cordially, Skip.

If I decided to "just point it out" to a conference with 100 people in attendance, how much would I make?

 

[Skip Sampson]

It's that you are sincerely committed to this offbeat view of the sacrament...which says something about your opposition to Masonry.

Just what, exactly does it say to you? Cordially, Skip.

 

[Skip Sampson]

And here's what you're saying NOW:

Well, not quite. I was noting the SBC position on the matter and noting that I agreed with it.

With all the interesting quotes concerning the KY GL teaching on salvation, you wish to quibble instead on the usage of 'act' or 'sign'. Good luck with that. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Simpleman25]

Greetings!

I am new here to this site. I have been a Mason for a number of years, or decades. I have read with disdain all this negativity surrounding Freemasonry. I find little of it to be of factual nature. It boils down to interpretation. How one understands the Bible and how one understands Freemasonry teachings. Neither of which can be defined in a black and white manner. It goes much deeper than that in both cases.

Ive read for years what emfj has had to say about Masonry. I have remained on the sideline over there because a Christian Mason does not stand a chance with that cult. Yes I said cult. I firmly believe emfj and e5:11 to be a cult. I have tons of information to make that claim.

Just wanted to introduce myself and say Hi to all of you. Whether your a Mason or antimason, or just dont care!

 

[Skip Sampson]

Not only do the overwhelming majority of Masons not interpret Grand Lodge teachings in this manner,

Again, whether a majority of masons agree or not, it remains the GL teaching.

no Grand Lodge claims to teach any method of salvation,

The KY GL certainly does, as I've noted. But I think you mean that no GL has made the express statement such as you noted. It's not, though, what they say to the public as much as what they do in ritual that counts.

as Freemasonry is not a church.

That's debatable. Just what would have to change in the Lodge to make it a church? My view is that the key issue is whether it's a religion or not, and I agree that it is one, as it meets the definition of one.

It doesn't matter whether Southern Baptists believe in killing disobedient children. It's what's taught in Deuteronomy that's the issue. Right?

Childish question. When you have the time, consider the implications of Jesus' comment in Matt 5:17 as it relates to your question. I'm sure the folks at SBC would be happy to assist you.

What? The word I used was defiance.

So you did. I'll try again:

Why is the active defiance of Christ's own spoken command less offensive to you than a made-up problem that affects essentially zero percent of Masons?

Mainly because I focus my efforts on false religions and cults.

As to zero percent, I don't think that's true. Consider this:

As Masons we have one faith, one hope, one charity. We believe in, and depend upon the same God, have the same hope of eternal life, and that same charity which is of an enduring and united nature, which will enable all the good and true to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace and in righteousness of life. (KY GL Monitor, Funeral Service, pg. 169)

This comment is made by the Senior Warden, meaning every SW in every KY Lodge that has run through the funeral service has repeated the claim. One assumes that since they were willing to repeat it, they believed it. Otherwise, they'd be the worst type of hypocrite (not beyond belief, as it were). Moreover, every Mason hearing the SW make such a claim, but does not object to it at some point, can be viewed as being in agreement to it.

The same is true of many of the quotes I noted in my post #176. Since most of these come out of ritual, any Mason stating them must agree with them. That means that any Mason who recites:

You were presented a Lambskin or white leathern apron. The lamb has in all ages been deemed an emblem of innocence. By the lambskin, therefore, the Mason is reminded of that purity of life and conduct which is essential to his gaining admission to the Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides. (EA Degree, pg. 32)

You were presented with the lamb-skin, the true badge of a Mason, because the lamb has, in all ages, been deemed an emblem of innocence; he, therefore, who wears the lamb-skin, as a badge of Masonry, is thereby continually reminded of that purity of life and conduct which is essential necessary to his gaining admission into the celestial lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides. (Note 2) (EA Ritual, pgs. 53 – 54)

Must be stating something he himself believes. Accordingly, I'd say thousands of KY Masons disagree with your assessment. It appears to me that, at the least, the officers certainly agree with what I've said; after all, they are the ones making those statements.

If I decided to "just point it out" to a conference with 100 people in attendance, how much would I make?

Don't know. It's hard to imagine 100 people showing up to listen to you, given the quality of your recent posts. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Simpleman25]

After all these years reading the tripe over at emfj. It is interesting to see that some of their members still resort to being trivial and mean spirited in their postings.
Comically skip still signs off with, 'cordially'. I think someone needs to read what the definition of the word is.

 

[Drudgeon]

Childish question. When you have the time, consider the implications of Jesus' comment in Matt 5:17 as it relates to your question. I'm sure the folks at SBC would be happy to assist you.

Gold star for understanding that there is more to the Christian understanding of Deuteronomy than just the words printed there. I'm going to have to dock you that gold star, however, for failing to recognize the same about your blanket assertions below.

Don't know. It's hard to imagine 100 people showing up to listen to you, given the quality of your recent posts. Cordially, Skip.

Why do anti-Masons get angry when it's pointed out how lucrative anti-Masonry is? Is it a lie that supposed exposes sell? Is it a lie that anti-Masons hold speaking engagements and peddle tracts? Oh well. I turn my cheek. I wonder sometimes if anti-Masons will refuse to enter the Pearlies when they see that some of us made it, too.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Why do anti-Masons get angry when it's pointed out how lucrative anti-Masonry is?

Upon what basis do you make this claim? Please let us know the facts behind your assertion. Just who has found this lucrative and how much money has he made? Cordially, Skip.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Simpleman:
You had earlier noted concerning criticism of Masonry:

I find little of it to be of factual nature.

In my post #176 I have many quotes from the KY GL documentation. Please let me know which of those are not factual. If you have the time, I'd also like to know which conclusions of mine are, in your view, not supported by the stated facts.

You had also stated:

I firmly believe emfj and e5:11 to be a cult.

I'd like to see such proof, and would suggest that you start a thread to address that issue. Be sure to start with a definition of the word "cult" so we have the common understanding.

It is interesting to see that some of their members still resort to being trivial and mean spirited in their postings.

Or not. What I'd like to see is a Mason backing up his claims. Faint hope, to be sure, but one never knows.

BTW, what jurisdiction are you in? If we are to discuss Masonry, I'd certainly like to keep my comments relevant to your GL. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Upon what basis do you make this claim? Please let us know the facts behind your assertion. Just who has found this lucrative and how much money has he made? Cordially, Skip.

Emfj, saintsalive, cuttingedge, OFF, the name doesn't seem to make a difference among them, check them all out and you eventually discover they are snake oil salesmen. First thing the salesman has to do is convince you there are snakes, second thing is to convince you that YOU are in a very real danger from them, and third, to inform you that he, very conveniently, has just the remedy you need--for a nominal service charge, of course.

Never mind that in this instance, there's no snake, and all the stuff they're falsely selling as snake oil, you can find online for free if you look around for it, without having to pay their price for it.

 

[Drudgeon]

Upon what basis do you make this claim? Please let us know the facts behind your assertion. Just who has found this lucrative and how much money has he made? Cordially, Skip.

Basis: Anti-Masons sell books, and in countries where currency has replaced livestock barter, such books are obtained with cash.

"Ministries" Links

At least four links on this page (Followers, Ankerberg, Sound Doctrine, Saints Alive) go to "ministries" that happily provide you with all the nonsense your money can buy.

I don't have the time or the inclination to poll anti-Masons about their monetary gains. Surprisingly, this can be a touchy subject (see the above quote for evidence). Is it really such a leap to say that people who sell things make money?

 

[Skip Sampson]

I don't have the time or the inclination to poll anti-Masons about their monetary gains. Surprisingly, this can be a touchy subject (see the above quote for evidence). Is it really such a leap to say that people who sell things make money?

Your claim was that it was 'lucrative' and now you can't back it up. No surprise there. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Drudgeon]

I'm not sure what you want me to say, Skip. I'll give it a try, though. No one will become the next Bill Gates by selling anti-Masonic garbage. How was that?

To some, one cent gained dishonestly is filthy lucre.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Lucrative for some, not for others. Form 990 reports reveal that emfj is small potatoes, even smaller than I had already figured. Revenue for 2011 listed as $2359. Saints Alive for some reason has no record of theirs listed. Ankerberg is the big fish, 2.3 million for the most recent report (2011), and a cool $10 million over the five years 2007-2011. John and Darlene Ankerberg are listed as the only salaried employees, pulling $70k each. Couldn't help but notice daugher Michelle is also listed with $37,861 reported as W-2 income. All in the family, eh?

Ankerberg's scope, of course, is much wider than emfj. Guess that shows how small the interest truly is in emfj's "ministry."

 

[Cactus Jack]

Ok, question- what is the relationship between Freemasons and the manufacturer of Mason jars?