Masculinity

[PassionFruit]

As feminist people assume that feminists don't discuss issues like masculinity and how it affects men. Because they tend think of feminism in a narrow sense.
But masculinity has always been a hot topic among feminist scholars, becasue for one, it's definitly a gender issue, and two, it affects our society as a whole. And take note that this isn't a thread discussing feminism, I just wanted to dispel another myth.
I would like some opinions on how masculinity is viewed?

Like, why aren't men encouraged to show emotion? (Unless it's anger)
Also, think about some of the images in the media of how masculinity is viewed.
Why does it seem that men have to be portrayed as extremely violent?

And if you disagree with this, please feel free to discuss it.

 

[keith99]

Historically a male has had to physically defend what is his. Showing 'weak' emotions such as sorrow or fear invite attack.

Men are shown as violent because being able to be violent is a big part of such defense. Note that some images of 'real men' show men who are kind and gentle unless pushed too far. Problem is in a story or film the kind and gentle gets forgotten. It shows only in chapter 1 and 2 before the adventure starts. The next 20 plus chapters show a violent person.

Archtypes almost always lag considerably behing changing needs and reallity.

 

[Rauffenburg]

Like, why aren't men encouraged to show emotion? (Unless it's anger)
Also, think about some of the images in the media of how masculinity is viewed.
Why does it seem that men have to be portrayed as extremely violent?

The question is, why should they and which emotions should they show and when? Of course the question is some sort of a stereotype itself since most of western poetry has been written by males. Maybe we should read more Shelley, Byron and Keats.

Concerning violence I would need some examples to discuss this. But it is not a very new thing indeed. Just have a look at the beginning of Homer's Illiad:

The wrath sing, goddess, of Peleus' son, Achilles, that destructive wrath which brought countless woes upon the Achaeans, and sent forth to Hades many valiant souls of heroes, and made them themselves spoil for dogs and every bird; thus the plan of Zeus came to fulfillment

 

[PassionFruit]

The question is, why should they and which emotions should they show and when? Of course the question is some sort of a stereotype itself since most of western poetry has been written by males. Maybe we should read more Shelley, Byron and Keats.

What I'm trying to get at here is how masculinity is viewed, and it seems to me that it's not masculine to show emotions. Like crying specifically, now you bring Shelly, Byron, and Keats which I've studied because I'm also a English major. Since you brought up those specific poets, I would say their poetry was written in the time of Romanticism, which is nothing but being overly emotional (at least some aspects of it). Then you could say that masculinity has changed overtime.

Concerning violence I would need some examples to discuss this. But it is not a very new thing indeed. Just have a look at the beginning of Homer's Illiad:

I'm mainly getting at violence that are found in movies. Yes, the Illiad is a good example, and I'm thinking more along the lines movies. Such as Rambo, The Terminator, and specifically action/adventure films.

 

[jayem]

What I'm trying to get at here is how masculinity is viewed, and it seems to me that it's not masculine to show emotions. Like crying specifically, now you bring Shelly, Byron, and Keats which I've studied because I'm also a English major. Since you brought up those specific poets, I would say their poetry was written in the time of Romanticism, which is nothing but being overly emotional (at least some aspects of it). Then you could say that masculinity has changed overtime.

I think you're correct. The masculine ideal was changed by the Victorians. It became the stiff upper lip, and the solitary man of virtue against the rude masses. I know it's corny, but who expressed it better than Kipling in the poem we all read in grade school:

IF

Rudyard Kipling

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!

 

[cantata]

Hi, PassionFruit! Great thread.

I actually think that a lot of the expectations for masculinity boil down to misogyny. Men are frequently encouraged to be not feminine than to be masculine per se. Notice that many of the characteristics of manliness are often defined in the negative: a man should not be overly emotional or sensitive, and a man should not be a coward. In other words, he should not be a woman (as women have been stereotyped).

 

[BlackSabb]

Hi, PassionFruit! Great thread.

I actually think that a lot of the expectations for masculinity boil down to misogyny. Men are frequently encouraged to be not feminine than to be masculine per se. Notice that many of the characteristics of manliness are often defined in the negative: a man should not be overly emotional or sensitive, and a man should not be a coward. In other words, he should not be a woman (as women have been stereotyped).

You are correct, but fall way short. There are many facets that define being a man. Or more correctly, being a "real man". Merely not being feminine is only the beginning. As a guy, I should know.

For eg,

Generally speaking, to be a "real man" and not a wuss, a guy needs to be either rough and tough, successful, wealthy, have his own business, be a leader in some capacity, do a hard physical job etc. The funny thing is that these sometimes and sometimes don't cross over. I'll explain in a minute.

For eg, some people see a "real man" as one that drinks a lot and can fight and defend himself well.

For others, a "real man" is one that is successful or has his own business, or has a profession. For goodness sakes, have a look at some classified ads for women seeking men. So many of them say "professional" occupation. I know this one well. My dear dad, God bless him, is very much like this. I used to be a ward orderly and he thought I was a nothing. He now respects me now that I've gone to university and work in a profession.

But of course some conservative business man is not going to be likely to see the young hard drinking, hard fighting hoodlum as being a "real man". He'll see him as a loser. Conversely, some hard physical working person would likely to see a guy who's an accountant as a "wuss".

In my old church, one of the youth leaders always used to joke at church functions that "salads/vegetables are for girls". He was big on meat. I love meat. I can't eat nothing but a plate of it of course.

Here's another one. Dogs and cats. Yep. You read that right. Society often considers dogs as men's pets and cats as women's/girl's pets. A female pastor once looked at me in disgust as if I had pulled down my pants and crapped on her good rug in front of her merely because I said that I, as a guy, loved cats.

"That's weird". I didn't tell her about my Barbie dolls.


Just kidding!!!!


Even cars can be given the personna of male and female. "Real men" drive large, powerful cars. My old girlfriend once scorned men who drove "puncy little cars". Phew!! Thank God I drive a V8!! I am redeeemed somewhat. Gosh, even my wife once said that "I'd think something was wrong with you if you didn't like cars".

My father in law once said "there's something wrong with any guy who doesn't watch the cricket". Oh well......I fail on that one.

There are an unbelievably assorted number of facets of what it means to be a "real man". Physical sports, money, success, business, leadership, drinking, fighting, cars, girls (DEFINATELY THAT ONE) etc. Take your pick.

I pity the poor guy that isn't athletic, drives a small car, doesn't drink, works as a clerk, doesn't drink, listens to classical music etc. Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic. I've seen myself first hand ridicule of such guys.

Thank God I have a V8 and am a huge Sabbath fan. I can get away with having three cats, lol.

 

[cantata]

You are correct, but fall way short. There are many facets that define being a man. Or more correctly, being a "real man". Merely not being feminine is only the beginning. As a guy, I should know.

Which is why I said "a lot of the expectations" rather than "all the expectations".

You're right. I don't deny it. I just wished to point out that, essentially, misogyny has a negative impact on men as well as women.

 

[BlackSabb]

Which is why I said "a lot of the expectations" rather than "all the expectations".

You're right. I don't deny it. I just wished to point out that, essentially, misogyny has a negative impact on men as well as women.

True, but there is not really such a thing as a "real woman". A woman could be a bricklayer, but still be considered womanly or feminine, especially if she's pretty.

It's another world for men though.

 

[cantata]

True, but there is not really such a thing as a "real woman". A woman could be a bricklayer, but still be considered womanly or feminine, especially if she's pretty.

It's another world for men though.

Perhaps.

But I might add that the reason for that is that traditionally "masculine" qualities (bravery! strength! rationality!) are almost universally viewed positively, despite the fact that they have negative counterparts (recklessness, violence, coldness). Meanwhile, traditionally "feminine" qualities (emotionality! weakness! gossip!) are still considered unseemly, despite the fact that they have positive counterparts (sensitivity, gentleness, communication). The feminist movement has been somewhat one-sided in many respects, focusing on bringing traditionally masculine qualities to women and allowing them to participate in them. But the sad thing is that in doing so, we have, to a certain extent, continued to demonise "the feminine", implicitly suggesting, as we take on "masculine" roles, that the "feminine" values of the past were worthless.

True feminism is about giving everyone, men and women, the freedom to embrace both the "feminine" and the "masculine" as they desire and as they feel comfortable. In order to do that, we need to rejoice in the "feminine" as much as in the "masculine". Which is why I see the issue of masculine expectations for men as being entwined with misogyny and therefore part of the feminist problem.

 

[BlackSabb]

Perhaps.

But I might add that the reason for that is that traditionally "masculine" qualities (bravery! strength! rationality!) are almost universally viewed positively, despite the fact that they have negative counterparts (recklessness, violence, coldness). Meanwhile, traditionally "feminine" qualities (emotionality! weakness! gossip!) are still considered unseemly, despite the fact that they have positive counterparts (sensitivity, gentleness, communication). The feminist movement has been somewhat one-sided in many respects, focusing on bringing traditionally masculine qualities to women and allowing them to participate in them. But the sad thing is that in doing so, we have, to a certain extent, continued to demonise "the feminine", implicitly suggesting, as we take on "masculine" roles, that the "feminine" values of the past were worthless.

True feminism is about giving everyone, men and women, the freedom to embrace both the "feminine" and the "masculine" as they desire and as they feel comfortable. In order to do that, we need to rejoice in the "feminine" as much as in the "masculine". Which is why I see the issue of masculine expectations for men as being entwined with misogyny and therefore part of the feminist problem.

Agreed. However, there is one thing that the feminist movement cannot change-at least not in a mere century. The perceptions of masculine and feminine traits that have been ingrained in mankind since the world began. That does not disappear overnight. That will take many hundreds of years to disappear.

Without being crude or anything, it even shows by the colloquial expressions for men's and women's genitalia. For eg, when someone is brave, tough etc, as you say, they are said to have "balls". And when someone is a coward and weak, they are a p.....y (hehe, don't want to be banned-just taking it real easy). You get the idea.

Where do ideas like that come from? Societal conditioning from thousands of years. Gosh, I've heard women/girls themselves denigrate some men as being "like girls!!!!!". Fancy that. A woman who denounces a guy as being weak, feminine etc by describing him as her own gender. And independant, career women too, not just pregnant barefooted women in the kitchen either.

In fact, I've heard a lot of women say that this and that person is "like a woman/girl". Again, this is societal conditioning from thousands of years.

I even saw it in The Simposon's cartoon once. The Simpsons were at a baseball game, and Bart yells out to one of the players:

"You throw like a girl". And Lisa yells out:

"Yeah, you throw like me".

That is a very accurate portrayal.

 

[cantata]

Agreed. However, there is one thing that the feminist movement cannot change-at least not in a mere century. The perceptions of masculine and feminine traits that have been ingrained in mankind since the world began. That does not disappear overnight. That will take many hundreds of years to disappear.

Without being crude or anything, it even shows by the colloquial expressions for men's and women's genitalia. For eg, when someone is brave, tough etc, as you say, they are said to have "balls". And when someone is a coward and weak, they are a p.....y (hehe, don't want to be banned-just taking it real easy). You get the idea.

Where do ideas like that come from? Societal conditioning from thousands of years. Gosh, I've heard women/girls themselves denigrate some men as being "like girls!!!!!". Fancy that. A woman who denounces a guy as being weak, feminine etc by describing him as her own gender. And independant, career women too, not just pregnant barefooted women in the kitchen either.

In fact, I've heard a lot of women say that this and that person is "like a woman/girl". Again, this is societal conditioning from thousands of years.

I even saw it in The Simposon's cartoon once. The Simpsons were at a baseball game, and Bart yells out to one of the players:

"You throw like a girl". And Lisa yells out:

"Yeah, you throw like me".

That is a very accurate portrayal.

Absolutely! I'm not saying it'll be changed overnight, and I'm certainly not saying and have never said that men are the only perpetrators of misogyny. Women are some of the very worst perpetrators, in fact. For example, there were many women who were vocally opposed to women's suffrage in the UK; and you only have to think of someone like Ann Coulter - although I wouldn't recommend it, unless you want your blood pressure to go through the roof - to realise that women are often other women's worst enemies. But the fact that misogyny is ingrained does not make it okay. The fact that it will be extremely hard to eradicate does not mean that it isn't worth trying.

Racism was ingrained in our culture up until relatively recently. Yet now, we have had our consciences raised to the degree that anyone making any sort of racist comment will be shunned or called out immediately in many circles. Consciousness has been raised with regard to sexism in a lot of areas as well. Yes, it will take time for us to become completely aware of all the sexism that our language and culture are steeped in. But it will happen. Even if it means just refraining from sexist language ourselves, and maybe even calling out others on it when they use it, or at least entering into a discussion about it, I think it's worth it. One step at a time, no?

The examples of you give of attitudes towards genitalia, by the way, are indicative of my remarks earlier, that "the feminine" is hated and feared while "the masculine" is praised and rewarded. In many ways, the feminist movement has only completed half of the transition. It has allowed women to participate in "the masculine". But in many ways, it has failed to make "the feminine" more acceptable. That's its next task.

(p.s. I'm delighted to be having a polite, civil conversation with you! )

 

[Polycarp_fan]

As feminist people assume that feminists don't discuss issues like masculinity and how it affects men. Because they tend think of feminism in a narrow sense.

Feminists of the 20th century feminist movement are responsible for this view of feminists.

I would think Sarah Palin is more of a feminist then some man-hating female human. Shouldn't a feminist for example, defend the unborn person within her with a fierceness like nothing else?

I think the concept of feminism has been abducted by a strange cause.

But masculinity has always been a hot topic among feminist scholars, becasue for one, it's definitly a gender issue, and two, it affects our society as a whole.

First and last, no woman can understand a man. And, vice versa. They can observe a man and research the input they are receiving, but that is it. Period end of myth.

And take note that this isn't a thread discussing feminism, I just wanted to dispel another myth.

It's not that easy. The foundation of this thread is a feminst one.

I would like some opinions on how masculinity is viewed?

_______ stupidly for the most part.

As is showcased here:

Like, why aren't men encouraged to show emotion? (Unless it's anger)

That's a myth. Fathers shed many tears teaching their sons how to be a man. In my experience in life, men are tens times more emotional than women and express it fsar more. Crying is not the most intense emotion. It is only a sign of a healthy mind.

Also, think about some of the images in the media of how masculinity is viewed.

The most decorated hero in American armed forces history is Audey Murphy. His incredible story of his war expereinces is recorded. One incident, his best freind was shot and killed by germans under a white flag. Murphy took a machine gun and murdered all of the German soldiers. After they were slaughtered, after he put down the machine gun, he was found by soldiers that witnessed the incident draped over his dead friend weeping intensely. That story tears me up every time I think of it.

Why does it seem that men have to be portrayed as extremely violent?

Men are extremely violent. Next myth to disspell?

And if you disagree with this, please feel free to discuss it.

Men are men and women are women. Trying to mix the two genders as being the same is an exercise in unintelligent thought.



-----Men are different then women huh?

 

[cantata]

I would think Sarah Palin is more of a feminist then some man-hating female human. Shouldn't a feminist for example, defend the unborn person within her with a fierceness like nothing else?

You assume that feminists are women.

First and last, no woman can understand a man. And, vice versa. They can observe a man and research the input they are receiving, but that is it. Period end of myth.

You assume that feminists are women.

In my experience in life, men are tens times more emotional than women and express it fsar more. Crying is not the most intense emotion. It is only a sign of a healthy mind.

So you dress your misogyny in different colours. It doesn't make you a feminist.

And what was that you said earlier about men not being to understand women, and vice versa? Apparently that doesn't apply to you...

 

[Rauffenburg]

True feminism is about giving everyone, men and women, the freedom to embrace both the "feminine" and the "masculine" as they desire and as they feel comfortable.

I think the proper name for this one is individualism.

I would think Sarah Palin is more of a feminist then some man-hating female human. Shouldn't a feminist for example, defend the unborn person within her with a fierceness like nothing else?

Why should he/she do that? I see no direct implication.

So you dress your misogyny in different colours. It doesn't make you a feminist.

And what was that you said earlier about men not being to understand women, and vice versa? Apparently that doesn't apply to you...

It is boring to discuss this unless we do not know what we discuss. What is emotionality? If it is to suggest less deliberation and more intuitive thinking... well that was an old prejudice against women during the enlightenment age; especially useful to keep "irrational" women away from political participation. I do not know whether we want to warm up this myth again.

 

[cantata]

I think the proper name for this one is individualism.

I disagree, because the fact remains that, globally speaking, it is women who suffer the most at the hands of sexual inequality. It would be disingenuous and disrespectful to their struggle to pretend otherwise with a gender-neutral term like "individualism". "Feminism" also remains an appropriate word because feminists, generally speaking, aim to liberate "the feminine" from its associations with weakness, ignorance, emotionalism, &c. "The masculine" requires no such liberation.

Also, "individualism" has other meanings which have nothing to do with gender issues. If you insist on a neutral term, it should still at least be one which refers to gender issues rather than just equality in general, or the specificity will be lost.

It is boring to discuss this unless we do not know what we discuss. What is emotionality? If it is to suggest less deliberation and more intuitive thinking... well that was an old prejudice against women during the enlightenment age; especially useful to keep "irrational" women away from political participation. I do not know whether we want to warm up this myth again.

Perhaps.

But my point was only that saying "Men are more awesome at expressing their emotions than women, so NER!" is still misogyny, even if it's a rather unusual brand of misogyny.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

As a man; I rejoice in the feminine much more than the masculine.
I can see female qualities most objectively and perceive their value most acutely when I am at my most masculine, because then they appear to me most clearly.

Th OP mentioned how men are portrayed in the media. The main (?sole) aim of most visual media today is to make money. I would therefore distrust them completely.

 

[PassionFruit]

Feminists of the 20th century feminist movement are responsible for this view of feminists.

I would think Sarah Palin is more of a feminist then some man-hating female human. Shouldn't a feminist for example, defend the unborn person within her with a fierceness like nothing else?

I think the concept of feminism has been abducted by a strange cause.

I see you don't get the purpose of the discussion. And like cantata said, you assume that all feminists are women.

First and last, no woman can understand a man. And, vice versa. They can observe a man and research the input they are receiving, but that is it. Period end of myth.

I still don't think you fully comprehend what I'm getting at.

It's not that easy. The foundation of this thread is a feminst one.

I would highly recommend you learn something first about feminsim. Then come back and contribute.

That's a myth. Fathers shed many tears teaching their sons how to be a man. In my experience in life, men are tens times more emotional than women and express it fsar more. Crying is not the most intense emotion. It is only a sign of a healthy mind.

Still not getting it. I'm not talking about crying specifically.

The most decorated hero in American armed forces history is Audey Murphy. His incredible story of his war expereinces is recorded. One incident, his best freind was shot and killed by germans under a white flag. Murphy took a machine gun and murdered all of the German soldiers. After they were slaughtered, after he put down the machine gun, he was found by soldiers that witnessed the incident draped over his dead friend weeping intensely. That story tears me up every time I think of it.

How often do war stories show men crying intenesly?

Men are extremely violent. Next myth to disspell?

How come men (in your view) men are extremely violent? Where'd that come from?

 

[LittleNipper]

As feminist people assume that feminists don't discuss issues like masculinity and how it affects men. Because they tend think of feminism in a narrow sense.
But masculinity has always been a hot topic among feminist scholars, becasue for one, it's definitly a gender issue, and two, it affects our society as a whole. And take note that this isn't a thread discussing feminism, I just wanted to dispel another myth.
I would like some opinions on how masculinity is viewed?

Like, why aren't men encouraged to show emotion? (Unless it's anger)
Also, think about some of the images in the media of how masculinity is viewed.
Why does it seem that men have to be portrayed as extremely violent?

And if you disagree with this, please feel free to discuss it.

I don't feel real masculinity has anything to do with fronts or violence. True masculinity has everything to do with leadership and character. I still shed a tear when Bambi loses his mother or Dumbo visits his mom in the mad elephant wagon. But it isn't about being heartless, it is about being open and honest and have the courage of one's convictions ----- even when everyone else disagrees due to secular logic...

 

[PsychMJC]

I don't feel real masculinity has anything to do with fronts or violence. True masculinity has everything to do with leadership and character. I still shed a tear when Bambi loses his mother or Dumbo visits his mom in the mad elephant wagon. But it isn't about being heartless, it is about being open and honest and have the courage of one's convictions ----- even when everyone else disagrees due to secular logic...

I ALMOST liked a post of yours *gasp*.. if you would have left the jab at the end out...