Mary's sinlessness

[MoNiCa4316]

Hi!

I have another question about Orthodoxy. I know you don't believe in the Immaculate Conception. (because you don't believe in original sin?) However, it is taught that Mary was sinless. I also read that the Orthodox Church teaches that we're not born with original sin but with an inclination to sin, and with mortality.

My question is, would you say that Mary had no inclination to sin, being "full of grace", or, did she have that inclination yet God gave her the grace to make the right choices every time?

Also, would you say that she was born "fallen" yet never sinned, or was she "not fallen" like Adam and Eve before they disobeyed God?

Thanks

 

[E.C.]

Hi!

I have another question about Orthodoxy. I know you don't believe in the Immaculate Conception. (because you don't believe in original sin?) However, it is taught that Mary was sinless. I also read that the Orthodox Church teaches that we're not born with original sin but with an inclination to sin, and with mortality.

My question is, would you say that Mary had no inclination to sin, being "full of grace", or, did she have that inclination yet God gave her the grace to make the right choices every time?

Also, would you say that she was born "fallen" yet never sinned, or was she "not fallen" like Adam and Eve before they disobeyed God?

Thanks

You know that old saying "you can take a horse to water, but you can not make him drink it"?

The way I've always understood it was this: drinking the water is the act of sinning. To be able to drink the water would be to have the ability to sin.

Mary had the ability to drink said water, but did not. The Western original sin stuff says that she did not have the ability to drink the water. To say that would be to make her not human.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

You know that old saying "you can take a horse to water, but you can not make him drink it"?

The way I've always understood it was this: drinking the water is the act of sinning. To be able to drink the water would be to have the ability to sin.

Mary had the ability to drink said water, but did not.

well my question is, though, why did she not? Was it her own choice, or God's grace, or both (God giving her the grace to make this choice )? that's what I'm confused about.. what was different about Mary? Why do we all choose to sin, but she did not? (btw, I do totally believe she was sinless. I'm just wondering, in the Orthodox understanding, why.)

The Western original sin stuff says that she did not have the ability to drink the water. To say that would be to make her not human.

That's not true.. she did have the ability to drink the water. The Western original sin stuff says that she was like Eve before the fall Eve was certainly human. Being without original sin does not make us less human, (but more so), and it doesn't remove free will. Mary did indeed have free will, *even if* she had no original sin. She could have chosen to leave her unfallen state and disobey God, just like Eve did. But she freely chose to obey Him

thanks for your reply.. I'm just wondering, do you believe that Mary received a special grace to not choose to sin? or..how did this happen?

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

God gives every human being free will. Mary chose not to sin. Remember, in accordance with the Protoevangelum of James, Mary spent her entire life in the Temple. She was so pious and devout in her faith, that she was the first woman ever to be allowed into the Holy of Holies. Through prayer and faith in God she was able to resist the temptation to sin.

To me, this just emphasizes the need for her intercessions so that we should be more like her!

O Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!

 

[MoNiCa4316]

God gives every human being free will.

I agree

Mary chose not to sin.

also agree!

Remember, in accordance with the Protoevangelum of James, Mary spent her entire life in the Temple. She was so pious and devout in her faith, that she was the first woman ever to be allowed into the Holy of Holies. Through prayer and faith in God she was able to resist the temptation to sin.

To me, this just emphasizes the need for her intercessions so that we should be more like her!

O Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!

oki I agree with this too! I think that she was tempted as well - regardless of whether the Catholic or the Orthodox teachings are true. I also think she had free will in a way, though being "full of grace". I guess it's sort of a mystery, the relationship between God's grace and our free will.

So what I don't understand is... would you say that her sinlessness was because of her choice alone, or did God allow her to make this choice, through His grace? But I don't know if this question makes sense.. lol.

I guess what I'm asking is, what role did grace have in Mary's sinlessness?

yes that's it!! I finally phrased my question.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

It’s a mystery. It’s not something we can break apart like an algebraic equation and analyze. Although there is no written documentation to support it, I would assume Mary asked for God’s strength in resisting temptation, and He gave her the strength to do so.

I don’t think when she was born she said, “Ya know, I think I’m going to set out and live a sinless life.” She probably took it one temptation at a time, praying and asking for God’s grace and strength the whole while.

Some things we will never know. I’ve heard some speculate that Mary was not sinless as Christ was sinless, but was as sinless as a human being could be. Only God knows, and only He can be the judge.

Mary was tempted. All human beings are tempted. Heck, even Christ Himself was tempted in the desert!

Temptation is not a sin; falling into temptation is.

A man can look at a beautiful woman and admire her for her beauty. When he begins lusting after her and fantasizing about her, that’s when the sin begins.

How Mary resisted temptation we will never know. That’s why we need to ask for her intercessions!

 

[MoNiCa4316]

thanks for your reply

 

[Gwendolyn]

I have been wondering about something similar. On my travels on the internet, I have come across Orthodox who do believe that Mary did not sin in her lifetime, and I have come across Orthodox (devout Orthodox, not cultural Orthodox) who believe that she did sin. I have questions about that but I thought maybe I'd make a thread in St. Justin's corner just in case people found it controversial or something. One never knows.

 

[ArmyMatt]

yeah, I think it depends on where you go and who you talk to because, as was stated earlier, it's a mystery. the only definitive thing I have heard is that relative to us she is sinless, relative to Christ she still needs a Savior.

 

[Annoula]

isn't Christ the only sinless person in the human history???????

as far as i know the Theotokos was like the rest of us but she was also the most clean person (from all of us) .

oh my dear... i can say i am shocked..
i have to ask someone about it.

------------------

after a very quick search i came up with the following:
please excuse my translation skills and correct me.

"The Theotokos in Orthodoxy was born like every other person, with the Grace of the Holy Spirit she went up the Scale that united the earth and the heavens, the birth of the Theanthropos, and maybe her sins were few, but she sinned. Because of her importance in the Salvation of man, she is Hypersaint, her intercessions - as it is shown in the orthodox iconography - are heard, and that is why we ask for her help and mercy, but she was not sinless. "

"Η Θεοτόκος στην Ορθοδοξία γεννήθηκε όπως κάθε άλλος άνθρωπος, αναδείχθηκε με τη Χάρη του Αγίου Πνεύματος στην Κλίμακα που ένωσε τη γη με τον ουρανό, τη γέννηση του Θεανθρώπου, και, μπορεί οι αμαρτίες της να είναι ελάχιστες, αλλά αμάρτησε. Λόγω της σημασίας του προσώπου της στη Σωτηρία του ανθρώπου, είναι Υπεραγία, οι δεήσεις της -όπως φαίνεται και στην ορθόδοξη αγιογραφία- εισακούγονται, και γι αυτό ζητούμε τη βοήθεια και το έλεός της, αλλά δεν ήταν αναμάρτητη."

source: http://www.ellhnismos.org/archive/index.php?t-33.html

i am still shocked that there are Orthodox people that believe in a sinless Theotokos...

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I'm kind of confused...

 

[MoNiCa4316]

yeah, I think it depends on where you go and who you talk to because, as was stated earlier, it's a mystery. the only definitive thing I have heard is that relative to us she is sinless, relative to Christ she still needs a Savior.

I also believe that Christ saved her I guess the difference is that i believe she was saved at her conception, and you guys believe she was saved at the end of her life like we are?

isn't Christ the only sinless person in the human history???????

as far as i know the Theotokos was like the rest of us but she was also the most clean person (from all of us) .

oh my dear... i can say i am shocked..
i have to ask someone about it.

------------------

after a very quick search i came up with the following:
please excuse my translation skills and correct me.

"The Theotokos in Orthodoxy was born like every other person, with the Grace of the Holy Spirit she went up the Scale that united the earth and the heavens, the birth of the Theanthropos, and maybe her sins were few, but she sinned. Because of her importance in the Salvation of man, she is Hypersaint, her intercessions - as it is shown in the orthodox iconography - are heard, and that is why we ask for her help and mercy, but she was not sinless. "

"Η Θεοτόκος στην Ορθοδοξία γεννήθηκε όπως κάθε άλλος άνθρωπος, αναδείχθηκε με τη Χάρη του Αγίου Πνεύματος στην Κλίμακα που ένωσε τη γη με τον ουρανό, τη γέννηση του Θεανθρώπου, και, μπορεί οι αμαρτίες της να είναι ελάχιστες, αλλά αμάρτησε. Λόγω της σημασίας του προσώπου της στη Σωτηρία του ανθρώπου, είναι Υπεραγία, οι δεήσεις της -όπως φαίνεται και στην ορθόδοξη αγιογραφία- εισακούγονται, και γι αυτό ζητούμε τη βοήθεια και το έλεός της, αλλά δεν ήταν αναμάρτητη."

source: ?? ?????? ??? ??? ????????? [??????] - ??????????

i am still shocked that there are Orthodox people that believe in a sinless Theotokos...

that's the first time I've ever heard that any Orthodox believe that she sinned! I thought all Orthodox, like the Catholics, believe that Mary is sinless... haha I'm shocked too but for the opposite reason

this is kind of interesting.. I think I'll research some more..

 

[Annoula]

(because you don't believe in original sin?) However, it is taught that Mary was sinless. I also read that the Orthodox Church teaches that we're not born with original sin but with an inclination to sin, and with mortality.

we definitely believe in original sin.

as far as i know it's not actually an "inclination to sin", but we live with the "consequences of the original sin" which can be somehow translated to "inclination".

i hope others more knowledgeable come around, as i don't feel adequate in explaining all this..

 

[MoNiCa4316]

we definitely believe in original sin.

as far as i know it's not actually an "inclination to sin", but we live with the "consequences of the original sin" which can be somehow translated to "inclination".

i hope others more knowledgeable come around, as i don't feel adequate in explaining all this..

but not the guilt of original sin right?

 

[ArmyMatt]

but not the guilt of original sin right?

right, we are not guilty of Adam's sin, however, we do inherit corruption, death, and an inclination to sin.

you guys believe she was saved at the end of her life like we are?

honestly I don't know. what I have heard from people isn't very definitive aside from her being sinless relative to the rest of us. now what that means on a sin scale of 1 to 1000000000 I have no idea.

 

[Annoula]

but not the guilt of original sin right?

guilt is a human emotion.

i have never heard that guilt is related to original sin itself.

 

[Annoula]

what I have heard from people isn't very definitive aside from her being sinless relative to the rest of us.

dear ArmyMatt,

maybe the sentence "sinless relative to the rest of us" is not accurate in describing the Theotokos because it includes the word "sinless" which is not accurate and it can cause great confusion.
i believe we call her "the most pious among people."

 

[MoNiCa4316]

guilt is a human emotion.

i have never heard that guilt is related to original sin itself.

well when I said 'guilt' I didn't mean the emotion but more like being held responsible for the sin, or, being punished for it (ie: going to hell)

 

[MoNiCa4316]

can someone please tell me... does the Orthodox Church teach that Mary never sinned, or does it teach that she sinned.. or, is this left open, and people believe either way?

I've always thought that all Orthodox believe she was sinless.... so this is kind of new for me?

I also read many quotes by the ECFs saying that Mary is very pure, blameless, etc....

 

[Annoula]

can someone please tell me... does the Orthodox Church teach that Mary never sinned, or does it teach that she sinned.. or, is this left open, and people believe either way?

I've always thought that all Orthodox believe she was sinless.... so this is kind of new for me?

I also read many quotes by the ECFs saying that Mary is very pure, blameless, etc....

dear Monica,

being Orthodox doesn't mean that we know all Church teachings.
as i see no one around that can provide reliable sources (the one i provided has a greek source unfortunately) i have to stress it once more:

Orthodox do not believe in a sinless Mary.

we believe she is the most pious person ever born.

and we don't call her plain Mary. Virgin Mary at the least.