Mary

[RMDY]

Catholics take veneration of her too far with Rosary beeds, prayers, honoring images of her, believing they have a spiritual relationship with her, that they reach God/Jesus through her, and that she offers them gifts, that she was sinless, she was like an arc of the covenant, that she is the Queen of Heaven.

Aren't we taught that all honor and glory is reserved for Jesus and that all have sinned except the Holy One of God?

 

[SeraphimSarov]

she was like an arc of the covenant

Question for you - if Mary carried the Word in her womb, the very God Himself, how is she not like the Ark? Indeed, doesn't this make her more important than the Ark in that from her womb, God came into the world fully man and fully God? I don't understand why people are so objectionable to the idea that there have been many holy people throughout history worthy of our admiration. Especially when there'd be nothing admirable about them if God hadn't worked through them.

 

[E.C.]

Worship is God (Trinity) only. Honor is for anyone worthy.

Is the woman who brought God into the world somehow not worthy of at least a little bit of recognition?

Question: by Catholics, do you mean Roman Catholics specifically, Eastern Rite Catholics or all that fall under the word "Catholicism"?

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Question: by Catholics, do you mean Roman Catholics specifically, Eastern Rite Catholics or all that fall under the word "Catholicism"?

I'm assuming he means "anything that remotely resembles Roman Catholicism."

 

[Kristos]

I'm assuming he means "anything that remotely resembles Roman Catholicism."

Or maybe anything that resembles Apostolic

 

[Kristos]

Catholics take veneration of her too far with Rosary beeds, prayers, honoring images of her, believing they have a spiritual relationship with her, that they reach God/Jesus through her, and that she offers them gifts, that she was sinless, she was like an arc of the covenant, that she is the Queen of Heaven.

Aren't we taught that all honor and glory is reserved for Jesus and that all have sinned except the Holy One of God?

By honoring His handmaiden, His Servants, His Mother, we are honoring God, the light of the world that shines through His people. Let it shine, let it shine.

 

[PaladinValer]

Catholics take veneration of her too far with Rosary beeds,

Do you think asking for people to pray for you is a violation of Christianity? Do you pray for other people? Is the Bible somehow a violation of Christianity?

Here's the Ave Maria:

"Hail Mary! Full of Grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, and Blessed is the Fruit of your womb, Jesus.

"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now at the hour of our death. Amen"

The first part is ripped right out of the Holy Canon!!

The second part is nothing more than a petition for her to pray for us.

prayers,

See the "second part" above.

honoring images of her,

In doulia, not latria. They are not the same thing.

believing they have a spiritual relationship with her,

We all do.

If in Baptism we become sons of God the Father, that makes us spiritual brothers and sisters of Jesus. And since St. Mary the Theotokos is the Mother of Jesus, then she is our spiritual Mother as well.

Its all purely logical.

that they reach God/Jesus through her,

Same "second part" as above.

and that she offers them gifts,

By her "yes" she gave us the Gift of Salvation.

that she was sinless,

Yes she was.

she was like an arc of the covenant,

Within the Arc of the Covenant is the Covenant. Jesus is our New Covenant; it is sealed in His Blood. He is our Living Covenant; our Living Torah. From where did He spring? As the Incarnation of the Divine Son in the Trinity, He was born from an Arc who bore Him. That Holy Arc is St. Mary the Theotokos.

that she is the Queen of Heaven.

In Hebrew government, the mother of the king is the queen. If Jesus is the King, then St. Mary the Theotokos is the Queen.

Aren't we taught that all honor and glory is reserved for Jesus and that all have sinned except the Holy One of God?

All glory and honor due to Him alone is His. Latria can only be given to Him. Doulia (and hyperdoulia in the case of the BVM) can be given to the Angels and the Saints.

 

[Oblio]

We don't honor her image, we honor her (the prototype), because of Christ.

[/nitpick]

 

[RMDY]

Question for you - if Mary carried the Word in her womb, the very God Himself, how is she not like the Ark? Indeed, doesn't this make her more important than the Ark in that from her womb, God came into the world fully man and fully God? I don't understand why people are so objectionable to the idea that there have been many holy people throughout history worthy of our admiration. Especially when there'd be nothing admirable about them if God hadn't worked through them.

God hovered over the Ark, not in it. Jesus dwelled within the womb, not over it. Big difference here.

"Then the cloud covered the Tabernacle, and the glory of the Lord filled the Tabernacle. Moses could no longer enter the Tabernacle because the cloud had settled down over it, and the glory of the Lord filled the Tabernacle."
Exodus 40:34-35

Second, when Jesus was in the womb, he hadn't received glory from the father yet, and the glory of God did not hover over the womb of Mary. Jesus had not gained the Holy Spirit yet and the New Covenant wasn't made until the time of around Jesus's death, which was during the last supper.

So, I believe this is a title given to Mary by people who speculate over many things they believe her to be.

 

[Oblio]

God hovered over the Ark, not in it. Jesus dwelled within the womb, not over it. Big difference here.



Second, when Jesus was in the womb, he hadn't received glory from the father yet, and the glory of God did not hover over the womb of Mary. Jesus had not gained the Holy Spirit yet and the New Covenant wasn't made until the time of around Jesus's death, which was during the last supper.

So, I believe this is a title given to Mary by people who speculate over many things they believe her to be.

Sounds like the heresy of Nestorianism to me

 

[RMDY]

Sounds like the heresy of Nestorianism to me

What is Nestorianism?

It even teaches us in Scripture that Jesus hadn't received Glory until he returned back to the Father.

 

[Oblio]

What is Nestorianism?

It even teaches us in Scripture that Jesus hadn't received Glory until he returned back to the Father.

A heresy that was addressed 1500 years ago. Those who held to that heresy refused to acknowledge the Mary was the Theotokos.

 

[RMDY]

Worship is God (Trinity) only. Honor is for anyone worthy.

Is the woman who brought God into the world somehow not worthy of at least a little bit of recognition?

Question: by Catholics, do you mean Roman Catholics specifically, Eastern Rite Catholics or all that fall under the word "Catholicism"?

I seriously hope that none of you believe they serve Mary.
Matthew 4:9,10 - Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.

Revelation 4:9-11 - God deserves this glory because He created all things. Note again the distinction between the creature and the Creator. [Revelation 5:13; Romans 11:36]
Isaiah 42:8; 48:11 - This glory is unique to God in that He refuses to share it with anyone else. Idols and created things have no right to receive this glory.
It follows that it would be blasphemy for anyone but God to receive this unique kind of glory. If anyone does receive this glory with God's approval, then that one must possess Deity.
http://www.gospelway.com/god/deity-jesus-worship.php

Revelation 5:12-14 - Both the Father and the Lamb (Jesus) were praised by the created things, who attributed to them "blessing and honor and glory and power." Note that the same glory and honor belongs to both Father and Son.

If Mary were here today, she would direct all your honor praises to God, not to her. Nowhere did anyone in Jesus time give her honor and praise.

 

[Oblio]

Nestorianism

 

[Kristos]

God hovered over the Ark, not in it. Jesus dwelled within the womb, not over it. Big difference here.

"Then the cloud covered the Tabernacle, and the glory of the Lord filled the Tabernacle. Moses could no longer enter the Tabernacle because the cloud had settled down over it, and the glory of the Lord filled the Tabernacle."
Exodus 40:34-35

Second, when Jesus was in the womb, he hadn't received glory from the father yet, and the glory of God did not hover over the womb of Mary. Jesus had not gained the Holy Spirit yet and the New Covenant wasn't made until the time of around Jesus's death, which was during the last supper.

So, I believe this is a title given to Mary by people who speculate over many things they believe her to be.

No speculation. The title of Theotokos has been proclaimed by the Church for centuries. Christ was fully God and fully Man even in the womb. It seems like you are separating Christ the infant (or fetus) and Christ the Son. If not, maybe you can clarify, otherwise, I would agree with Oblio.

 

[RMDY]

A heresy that was addressed 1500 years ago. Those who held to that heresy refused to acknowledge the Mary was the Theotokos.

Before I answer your question, can you please answer mine:

Do you believe Mary was baptised with water?

 

[RMDY]

No speculation. The title of Theotokos has been proclaimed by the Church for centuries. Christ was fully God and fully Man even in the womb. It seems like you are separating Christ the infant (or fetus) and Christ the Son. If not, maybe you can clarify, otherwise, I would agree with Oblio.

*looks for his book on Christ history*

(until I find it, I will refuse to comment on something I am not familiar about)

"The throne of God and of the Lamb"
- Revelation 22:1

"Lamb's book of life"
- Revelation 21:27

"Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men." ( Philippians 2:6-7) "He is the image of the invisible God.(Colossians 1:15) For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." (Colossians 2:9)

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Second, when Jesus was in the womb, he hadn't received glory from the father yet, and the glory of God did not hover over the womb of Mary. Jesus had not gained the Holy Spirit yet and the New Covenant wasn't made until the time of around Jesus's death, which was during the last supper.

Do you believe Jesus Christ was God from conception? If not, there's really nothing else to discuss. I'm not willing to debate a heresy that was eliminated almost a millennium and a half ago.

PS - read the gospel of St. Luke, chapter one, verse 43. I think you'll find that it contradicts rather sharply contradicts you. And if you don't... again, oh well.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

*looks for his book on Christ history*

(until I find it, I will refuse to comment on something I am not familiar about)

"The throne of God and of the Lamb"
- Revelation 22:1

"Lamb's book of life"
- Revelation 21:27

"Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men." ( Philippians 2:6-7) "He is the image of the invisible God.(Colossians 1:15) For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." (Colossians 2:9)

Please don't throw verses at us. Explain what you think those verses mean. I for one think it's incredibly rude to just throw Bible verses around like they stand as proof of your argument in and of themselves - we wouldn't be disagreeing if we all agreed on what the Bible says, would we?

 

[PaladinValer]

God hovered over the Ark, not in it. Jesus dwelled within the womb, not over it. Big difference here.

Jesus is known as the Living Torah; it is another of His many, many titles.

Was the Torah in the ark or above it?

"Then the cloud covered the Tabernacle, and the glory of the Lord filled the Tabernacle. Moses could no longer enter the Tabernacle because the cloud had settled down over it, and the glory of the Lord filled the Tabernacle."
Exodus 40:34-35

Note the word I bolded. If I fill a box, what happens within that box?

Second, when Jesus was in the womb, he hadn't received glory from the father yet, and the glory of God did not hover over the womb of Mary. Jesus had not gained the Holy Spirit yet and the New Covenant wasn't made until the time of around Jesus's death, which was during the last supper.

This sounds like either Adoptionalism or Nestorianism, depending on how you're going to progress from here.

So, I believe this is a title given to Mary by people who speculate over many things they believe her to be.

Here's the rub:

Is Jesus God? Yes
Was there a time He was not God? No
What is an Incarnation? An Incarnation is the dwelling of a divine being, a deity, spirit, or other entity, on Earth in the flesh, form, and appearance as a human being. In other words, it is when a divine being becomes a human being while remaining divine.

Your beliefs are contradictory to these basic facts.

What is Nestorianism?

An ancient heresy that is contradictory to the Nicene Creed.

It even teaches us in Scripture that Jesus hadn't received Glory until he returned back to the Father.

Only if you deny the Godhood and Divinity of Jesus.

Before I answer your question, can you please answer mine:

Do you believe Mary was baptised with water?

What does that have to do with anything?