Mary

[ps139]

Michelle....... sigh? Sorry if I'm testing your patience. I went back and read post 17. It lists only a couple of verses, Revelation 5:8 is a good one for your case. 1 Timothy 2:1-4 are the only other verses mentioned as evidence in the post and are quite poor at supporting prayer to those who have passed on. Great for supporting prayer for our fellow man however. Weak to say the least for your case.


I did read that correctly didn't I? You used the word ample to describe the Scripture available to support the Catholic view. Our friend PS139 has done an excellent job of supporting the Catholic view, but the "ample Scripture" is missing. I was under the impression you might have more scriptural evidence than the two passages in post 17.

Rainmaker,
I also could have mentioned that communication with the saints (i.e. requests for intercession) are part and parcel of our (Catholic) sense of the unity of the Mystical Body of Christ. This doctrine is essential to the NT Gospel message. The Church on earth (the Church Militant, we used to say) is one with the Church in heaven (the Church Triumphant); all are united in the one Body of Christ. Certainly, the Church of the apostolic age had a strong sense of this Unity because Paul emphasized our unity in Christ so strongly and constantly.

There are many verses throughout the NT which support or refer to this. I don't want to overload you, so here's just one more passage, 1 Cor 12:18-21 :

But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be?
As it is, there are many parts, but one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!".

And guys please don't read too much into each other's "sighs"

 

[Michelina]

Kudos to Ps139, Rainmaker and Michelle for a very interesting (and very Christian) exchange on this very important area of misunderstanding between Catholics and Non-Catholics. I just signed on and into this discussion little while ago and have only gone back a few pages so far. I am glad I signed on! Thanx, Michelina

 

[Axion]

Michelle....... sigh? Sorry if I'm testing your patience. I went back and read post 17. It lists only a couple of verses, Revelation 5:8 is a good one for your case. 1 Timothy 2:1-4 are the only other verses mentioned as evidence in the post and are quite poor at supporting prayer to those who have passed on. Great for supporting prayer for our fellow man however. Weak to say the least for your case.

You seem to have missed some of the key points already made in this argument:

1. Prayer is nothing special. It does not equal worship. The distinction you make between prayer for our fellow men, and prayer to the heavenly saints is invalid. To pray to the heavenly saints is to ask for their prayers to be joined with ours, this is just the same as when we ask the earthly saints to join their prayers with ours. This is what is urged in 1 Timothy.

2. In Jesus no Christian is dead.

Luke 20:38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him."

1 Th 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

3. All Christians wherever they may be, form one undivided body in Christ. All members of that body, rejoice or suffer together

1 Corinthians:12.12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body...
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."..
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, 25 that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

Lk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

So why try to divide the Body of Christ by denying that those in heaven can share the sufferings and rejoicings of fellow members of Christ's body on earth?

 

[RainMaker]

I meant ample as in sufficient to complete the cause. Did you read the link that was provided in post number 17? If you still feel that evidence is lacking to support this view, then I am afraid we should agree to disagree.

Please provide me, if you will, where in Scripture it indicates that the faithful departed are 'dead'.

Michelle

Michelle,

I didn't know that one scriptural reference regarding prayers to saints who have passed on (Revelation 5:8) was considered ample. Ps139 has provided an argument in support of prayer to saints who have passed from this world that is very interesting but lacks an abundance of scriptural evidence. You made the claim that there was "ample" evidence in the scriptures, so I merely wished to drink at the fountain of your abundant knowledge and wisdom. Unfortunatly the fountain seems to have run dry. LOL Just kidding Michelle. Really, I just thought there might be more scriptural evidence. As far as agreeing to disagree...... that could be difficult since you don't know my position on the subject.

 

[RainMaker]

You seem to have missed some of the key points already made in this argument:

Axion my friend, I haven't missed those key points. I was merely seeking scriptural evidence for prayer to saints who have passed from this life. Obviously the saints have passed from this life. They no longer have mortal lives, but eternal lives. I was seeking scriptural evidence to support prayer to those who are now experiencing eternal lives. Is that better? Not dead, but rather passed on from this life, a mortal life.

 

[RainMaker]

So why try to divide the Body of Christ by denying that those in heaven can share the sufferings and rejoicings of fellow members of Christ's body on earth?

Not trying to divide anything, simply seeking knowledge. Never made any statements denying those in heaven being able to do anything.
Sheesh, a guy wants to learn and this is what I get?

 

[RainMaker]

Rainmaker,
I also could have mentioned that communication with the saints (i.e. requests for intercession) are part and parcel of our (Catholic) sense of the unity of the Mystical Body of Christ. This doctrine is essential to the NT Gospel message. The Church on earth (the Church Militant, we used to say) is one with the Church in heaven (the Church Triumphant); all are united in the one Body of Christ. Certainly, the Church of the apostolic age had a strong sense of this Unity because Paul emphasized our unity in Christ so strongly and constantly.

There are many verses throughout the NT which support or refer to this. I don't want to overload you, so here's just one more passage, 1 Cor 12:18-21 :

But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be?
As it is, there are many parts, but one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!".

And guys please don't read too much into each other's "sighs"

PS139, nicely done. Thank you.

 

[ps139]

Not trying to divide anything, simply seeking knowledge. Never made any statements denying those in heaven being able to do anything.
Sheesh, a guy wants to learn and this is what I get?

A few things:

I think Rainmaker understands that the saints in heaven are very much alive, and that they are joined with us in the Body of Christ. (1 Cor 12)

I believe that the related Scripture passages we have been quoting, along with the practices of the first generations of the Church are sufficient to indicate that from early times, Christians have been righteously praying to saints, including Mary.

However, just like the Trinity in Scripture, I do not believe it to be an overtly explicit statement. I believe the Bible supports requests to saints to pray to God for us in the same type of way that it supports the Trinity.

I do not think anyone should be criticized for still being skeptical. Everyone needs to work out "new" concepts in their minds, asking the Lord for guidance.

With examples such as Acts 8:24, where Simon asks Peter to pray for him to God (the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective), I believe that Peter is more alive now than he ever was on earth. Also more righteous now that he is with the Lord in heaven. When Moses and Elijah appear in Luke 9:30, they appear "in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus."

If there is any Scriptural evidence against this - I would like to see it. And for the record I do not think Paul's warnings against necromancy are applicable. Humbly asking a saint to pray to God for you and trying to call up a dead relative (regardless of where they are) are totally different, both in intent and action.

With the Scriptural defense that has been laid out over the last few days, combined with the accounts of the Church Fathers and First Martyrs, in support of requests to and for intercession of saints, I believe the burden of proof falls on the opposite viewpoint.

God Bless All

 

[RainMaker]

ps139, you have laid out an admirable case to support your viewpoint. Although I think the case scripturally for prayer to saints is a bit of a reach, I understand how one would practice it based on teachings of the early church. For the record, I do see the case for the Trinity laid out much more clearly in the scriptures, however that's for another discussion.

I have several lifelong friends who are Catholic, which is why I found this discussion interesting. My first thoughts were of concern thinking that Catholics were worshiping the Saints through prayer, or asking them to do some act here on earth for them. I now feel I more clearly understand the Catholic practice of praying to the Saints, and am more at ease with it. Although it's not something I would practice, I am no longer concerned that others chose to do so.

God bless you all.

-Mark

 

[Axion]

Not trying to divide anything, simply seeking knowledge. Never made any statements denying those in heaven being able to do anything.
Sheesh, a guy wants to learn and this is what I get?

I apologise if you were offended by my statement: "So why try to divide the Body of Christ by denying that those in heaven can share the sufferings and rejoicings of fellow members of Christ's body on earth?"

It was not directed at you personally. It was intended as a rhetorical question. Sorry if it came over differently.

 

[Michelina]

Axion my friend, I haven't missed those key points.

I have been following this post with great interest. I can see that you are are a good, Christian man and behave like one , even when you are misunderstood. But I must say that I think you miss certain points because you live and breathe in a different matrix. You assume that all the answers are in the Sacred Scriptures. The SS were not written as An Owner's Manual, as I have heard some non-Catholic Christians say. They were written in certain, individual, historical contexts. They do not (as many non C Christians assume) address every question.

I was merely seeking scriptural evidence for prayer to saints who have passed from this life. Obviously the saints have passed from this life. They no longer have mortal lives, but eternal lives.

They never had 'mortal lives'. They had immortal souls that inhabited bodies (which died) and their souls 'went' to heaven. They remain one and the same person and continue their same existence in heaven. BTW, Catholics do not use the word 'eternal' for souls. Eterneity implies life without beginning or end. Only God is eternal; He gives our created immortal souls everlasting life. But the immortal souls in hell will also never die.


I was seeking scriptural evidence to support prayer to those who are now experiencing eternal lives. Is that better? Not dead, but rather passed on from this life, a mortal life.

Rainmaker, I see that you are trying to set up a distinction between this life and heaven. Aquinas, the Babe Ruth of Catholic theolgians, calls Baptism 'the inchoate beginning of evrlasting life'. The efevrlasting life I hope we will all share begins when one accepts the Gospel, embracing Jesus as Lord.

Our Matrix is different from yours. Jesus established a Church before a word of the NT was written. To that Church He gave the authority to teach, pastor and sanctify the world. To her, He also gave the Holy Spirit and through Him, the Sacred Scriptures not only for her own Life but also for the evangelization of the world. So, we live and breathe in different matrices, but that does not mean we should not communicate. .........With Love and Prayers, Michelina

 

[Michelina]

Sorry about that last post. The first, third and fifth sections of the QUOTE box belong to our good friend Rainmaker.

The second and fourth belong to your humble servant.

I am new at this and can't figure out to do responses correctly. Give me a couple of years and I'll pick up the technique, maybe.
Sorry for messin' up.

 

[RainMaker]

I apologise if you were offended by my statement: "So why try to divide the Body of Christ by denying that those in heaven can share the sufferings and rejoicings of fellow members of Christ's body on earth?"

It was not directed at you personally. It was intended as a rhetorical question. Sorry if it came over differently.

Axion,

No problem. You never know who is posting on these message boards, or their agenda. Sometimes it's easy to be defensive about ones views, expecially when so many are biased against Christianity. My motive is simply understanding a viewpoint I knew little about. Thank you for your understanding.