Mary

[Luchnia]

Jesus is the one being complimented, not Mary. Therefore, Jesus is refocusing the attention from Him to others who obey the word of God. If He is refocusing the attention away from Him to others, His comment cannot be a rebuke of Mary His mother in anyway!.

also, the Greek word for "rather" is "menounge." Menounge really means "Yes, but in addition," or "Further." Thus, Jesus is saying, yes my mother is blessed indeed, but further blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it. Jesus is encouraging others to follow Mary's example in order to build up His kingdom.

Yes, agreed! You make my point exactly, except for your added text to somehow imply that we are to follow Mary's example. There is no indication in the text that what you have typed is the case at all. We really have no example of Mary because nothing was really written of her manner of life. Paul is actually someone you could imitate as he said, "Imitate me, as I imitate Christ."

Also the word "menounge" means "nay, nay but, so then at least, yes, doubtless, etc.," in addition to the meanings you have given. So Jesus could have actually been saying, "Nay but, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." This could have been a stunning refute to one who was trying to lift up Mary.

Whichever the case, they both show equality and mary in no wise being exalted above any other Christian that hears the word and obeys it. This is clearly the intent of Jesus in the passage, as was always the case with Jesus when men tried to put men above others. He took nothing from Mary, but gave nothing to her above what was given to any other Christian.

This has been posted before, but you should lift up each and every saint, even the one standing on the street corner that you might call "Joe," if he hears the Word and obeys it. Elevate him as you do Mary and all the Christians. Leave it as Jesus left it. If a person hears the word and obeys he is equal to Mary and that is good enough for Jesus, it is good enough for us.

Word up!

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

Luchnia,

Think of it this way. Jesus can't be saying his Mother isn't blessed that doesn't make sense in the context of scripture! Mine does. Look at Luke 1:41-42:

"...Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb."

Elisabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit (God) and what does she say of Mary? That she is blessed among women! Then we see in Luke 1:48 that the Virgin Mary says, "all generations shall call me blessed."

So when the woman in the crowd to our Lord, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you." It only make sense for Christ to respond, Even more blessed are those who hear God's Word and guard it with their lives!" (MSG) ***

We also see this from the New Living Translation (NLT)

28He replied, "But even more blessed are all who hear the word of God and put it into practice."

and the Contemporary English Version (CEV)

28Jesus replied, "That's true, but the people who are really blessed are the ones who hear and obey God's message!"


*** http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Luke+1:28&version=MSG

 

[Luchnia]

I agree with you here. I never stated that Mary had not been blessed. I think the scripture clearly indicates she was blessed and the nations called her blessed, and equally were all that heard and obeyed. The key to Mary's blessing is the same as all blessing and that is 'hear and obey." Mary obeyed by her words. She stated it would be done unto her as God wanted and she followed through with it, if she had not, it would not have been done to her. Any Christian that submits that way is blessed.

Was Mary blessed all the days of her life after all these events. That we do not know. We can speculate she was by what some claim. Personally, I feel she was, but we simply do not know. I believe Mary probably died a ripe old age and a mature saint, but that is only a speculation on my part. It is stated that her grave was found among a group of graves of other saints. We don't know that to be true, once again only can speculate that is accurately documented.

From the writings of various men about Mary, we cannot put any credibility in. Only by the Spirit can we know and the Spirit did not imply one way or the other about this.

There were other people that knew Jesus as a grown man much better than Mary did and many of them rejected Him (Jn 6:66). Did Mary as well? We don't know, it seems that all did. It would be likely those that rejected Him perished to eternal torments. We do not know that either, and hopefully they repented and came back to Him to have eternal life.

Word up!

 

[Acceptance]

There were other people that knew Jesus as a grown man much better than Mary did and many of them rejected Him (Jn 6:66). Did Mary as well? We don't know, it seems that all did. It would be likely those that rejected Him perished to eternal torments.

Please tell me that I'm misunderstanding you here. Are you suggesting that Mary went to hell because she rejected Jesus as God?? You say we don't know, but just a couple pages ago you wrote:

If Mary wasn't a sinner, why did she call Jesus her savior?

It sounds like you're not really sure what you believe (which is completely fine!), but just don't talk out both sides of the pen. (if that's what you're doing--please correct me if I'm misunderstanding)

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

You know I was in an art museum here in Seattle recently (SAM). They have a very nice collection of religious paintings, clearly catholic in nature.

I found it so very interesting that most of these show Mary with her baby.

Did you get that? Mary with her baby.

Mary by name, her baby by description.

I think the use of Mary as such a strong base in the Catholic denom dimishes the use of Christ.

Christ is the most important aspect to Christianity and I believe the protestant denoms show that in their worship by downplaying Mary's role. No one should ever outshine Christ. Mary seems to in the Catholic setting.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

...There were other people that knew Jesus as a grown man much better than Mary did and many of them rejected Him (Jn 6:66). Did Mary as well?

Are you really asking if Mary rejected her son? Come on!

We don't know, it seems that all did.

Mary did not reject Christ!!

 

[Miss Shelby]

I found it so very interesting that most of these show Mary with her baby.

Did you get that? Mary with her baby.

Mary by name, her baby by description.

May I ask what you find objectionable in this? Mary was Christ's mother. This art portrays her as a Mother, because without Christ, she is nothing. I keep religious art of that nature in my home to remind me of my calling to be a mother. If you were in a museum, you were not in a place of worship, I don't understand why this bothers you.

I think the use of Mary as such a strong base in the Catholic denom dimishes the use of Christ.

I disagree.

Christ is the most important aspect to Christianity and I believe the protestant denoms show that in their worship by downplaying Mary's role. No one should ever outshine Christ. Mary seems to in the Catholic setting.

Well, you are right about one thing. Many Protestants (not all)-- do downplay Mary's role. However, the Mass, which is the Catholic worship service, is Christ centered. Have you ever been to one?

Michelle

 

[Acceptance]

Christ is the most important aspect to Christianity and I believe the protestant denoms show that in their worship by downplaying Mary's role. No one should ever outshine Christ. Mary seems to in the Catholic setting.

You point out yet another common misconception the protestants tend to have about the catholic faith. If your last sentence is really your perception, than you clearly don't know about the Catholic church, and should not be commenting as if you do.

My boyfriend (a former reformed christian) thought the same thing as you until he came with me to a mass. He was utterly shocked at just how Christ centered the Catholic mass in fact is. He was also surprized to hear many of the same songs being sung that they sang in his church. He was also surprized to hear, in response to a saints name being said, the congragation say "pray for us" (he finally realized that we do not worship saints, but simply ask them for prayers as you ask your friends and family for them).

And by the way: In comparing the 2 religious services, the Catholic mass uses Christ's name WAY more times than the reformed protestant service does.

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

I can understand your feeling the need to correct my thoughts on what I see in and from the Catholic church about Mary.

Yes, I have attended services there. And yes, I have seen Christ there.

I have also seen folks bow down to Mary's statue, to her imagine, and chant her name.

I have taken note of the art found within this sitting that does indeed put Mary in the spotlight even more so than Christ.

Those paintings I mention, do just that. Shine bright on Mary, but Christ, well Christ is descriptive of MARY not Mary decriptive of Christ.

My opinion here is not ment to sway. I wish you could really see what control the concept of Mary has within the Catholic setting, but thats as far as my efforts go - to offer wish. Disagree all you wish - tis a choice.

I understand Mary's role, but I am not about to make it any more than that of mother. She was just a vessel, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

Do you understand that the only reason Mary is so great, is because of Christ? Once I figured that out... I became Catholic.

Mary is so great because she gave birth to our Lord!

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

Catholicism is why Mary is so "great" to use your word. I believe we can say that she is of no more importance than you or I to our Lord.

 

[Miss Shelby]

understand Mary's role, but I am not about to make it any more than that of mother. She was just a vessel, nothing more, nothing less.

If this is what you believe that Mary's role is, you do indeed have a less than adequate understanding of it. She was not an inatimate object, an incubator providing 'womb service'. I dare say if somone said that very thing about YOUR mother, you'd be offended. And if you weren't, you should be.



Michelle

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

Its more along the lines of her having a role of delivery.

Much like Billy Grahms role is delivery.

 

[Wolseley]

I have also seen folks bow down to Mary's statue, to her imagine, and chant her name.

And so you automatically know for certain that those folks were worshipping Mary?

Or are you simply slapping a subjective interpretation on some observed behavior, based on your own preconceptions?

I have taken note of the art found within this sitting that does indeed put Mary in the spotlight even more so than Christ.

Possibly. But artwork, fortunately, doesn't mean diddly-squat. The doctrines about Mary are what's important.

So, review the entire body of Marian teachings in the Catholic Church, and provide me with examples where the Vatican says she is above Christ.

I'll wait. (I may run out for food and a couple six or seven movies, though.) Good luck.

My opinion here is not ment to sway.

You have great perception, RTH. You know a fruitless enterprise when you begin one.

In my particular case, anyway.

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

Ahh you want to chat now about what some pope has to say do ya?

How about what GODs word has to say on the matter. That holds more merrit w/me than some pope.

*lol* I dont see any apple trees here .... do you? Didnt know I was looking for them. Maybe your pope ate them all.

 

[Wolseley]

Ahh you want to chat now about what some pope has to say do ya?

No, I didn't say that. I said provide me with examples from the relevant documents where the Vatican has said that Mary is above Christ. That would include Patristic Fathers, theologians, bishops, councils, synods, and popes.

How about what GODs word has to say on the matter. That holds more merrit w/me than some pope.

Okay, so provide me with relevant examples where God's Word contradicts the relevant Catholic teachings as above. Like I said, I'll wait.

*lol* I dont see any apple trees here .... do you?

No, but I see massive amounts of misunderstanding in this thread about what Catholics really believe.

Didnt know I was looking for them. Maybe your pope ate them all.

That's cute.....but don't get too cute. *Wols lifts one side of his jacket to reveal his six-shooter and tin star* I'm still one o'the sherriffs in this here town, y'know.

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

*ohhh* Im shakin in my boots

I'll post your scripture and just maybe Ill venture into your catholic doctrine. Its not that hard to do.

Ill have a bit of time this afternoon.

Til then....

cowboy...

 

[Wolseley]

*Wols rubs the palms of his hands together rapidly*

Oh, boyohboyohboyohboy!!!!!

Bring 'em on.

 

[Philip]

Wols,

Do I need to make a reservation to watch this one?

 

[Acceptance]

[Quietly snickering at RaptureTicketHolders ignorance re: Catholicism.]