Mary

[TScott]

I can understand your feeling the need to correct my thoughts on what I see in and from the Catholic church about Mary.

Yes, I have attended services there. And yes, I have seen Christ there.

I have also seen folks bow down to Mary's statue, to her imagine, and chant her name.

I have taken note of the art found within this sitting that does indeed put Mary in the spotlight even more so than Christ.

You don't seem to understand the aspect of Communion.

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

You don't seem to understand.......

Bla bla bla... Lets park the "you dont seem bit" for a moment, shall we?

Alrighty then.

Here is what I know about the Catholic view of Mary.

She is:

Mary is a human being. She is not a goddess.

But she is the mother of Jesus (that vessel I mentioned in an earlier posting). She carried him in her womb for nine months. (Im good with this part, you with me so far?)

Mary is "theotokos" aka literally means "God-bearer", therefore worthy of praise.

(here is a bit of a sticky wicket)

So we now make a jump folks, from being a GOD bearer to a spiritial mother thanks to some confusion about Rev 12. Somehow the offerspring of the Woman (supposedly Mary) w/the dragon has become us - making Mary our spiritial mother.

And now the jump gets a wee bit larger making Mary QUEEN MUM of Heaven because Rev has "the woman" wearing a crown. And because she is queen mum, she can pray for those who ask her while in Heaven why? King Solomon (1 Kings 2) had a special thrown set up for his Mum, which gives insite to how Mary should be treated. And because she supposedly has a special thrown, prayers can be heard by her and she will then speak to her son.

Now, one final reason Catholics state Mary will speak on a prayer's behalf is from a request she made of Christ while they both were still alive.

Now thoughts of praying to Mary for help dates back to 250 ad with an ancient Marian prayer.

Well, I believe I have it down so far..... Sources were from Catholic City and the University of Dayton, as well as a catholic online.

Is Mary all this?

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

All that and more. She is our mother and the mother of Salvation!

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

Well, lets see what scripture and Mary herself has to say about being above and beyond anyone else with the Lord's calling:

Matthew 2
10When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. 11On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh. 12And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Herod, they returned to their country by another route.

Nkay, nothing extra special listed here for Mary. Except, maybe if you think about what Mary does for herself - but even that is her doing:

Luke 2

19But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart.

Even in prayer, she is just part of the crowd:

Acts 1

14They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.

Now, when given the chance to speak on his mother's behalf or even to her what did Christ do? He said nothing....

Matthew 13

53When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there. 54Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?" they asked. 55"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56Aren't all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" 57And they took offense at him.
But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor."


Most interesting is that he did not proclaim her special, rather grouped her along with his brothers in with the crowd:

Matthew 12

46While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."[7]
48He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Who did Christ visit upon his reserection? His mother? Nawww

John 20

18Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!"

So what do the Lord's angles say about this gal?
Well, nothing that would tell the Catholic church to behave as it does now:

Luke 1

26In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."
34"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"
35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. 37For nothing is impossible with God."
38"I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her.

Interesting that nothing is said to exualt Mary here. She was not looking for such special treatment in return for the Lord's service and it was not given/offered to her.

So, is this special devotion something GOD wants?

His scripture seems to state the specialness is not for her....

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

...
Interesting that nothing is said to exualt Mary here. She was not looking for such special treatment in return for the Lord's service and it was not given/offered to her.

So, is this special devotion something GOD wants?

His scripture seems to state the specialness is not for her....

Funny you left out Luke 1:28 the Angel (of God) greeting to Mary:

"Hail Mary, Full of Grace the Lord is with thee!"

In Luke 1:28 we see the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Or how about Luke 1:38, The Blessed Virgin Mary's fiat is "let it be done to me according to thy word." Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration.

You also forgot:

Luke 1:42 - "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus." The phrase "blessed are you among women" really means "you are most blessed of all women."

A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). We too can go through Mary to praise Jesus. Finally, Catholics repeat these divinely inspired words of Elizabeth in the Rosary.

Also, let's check out Luke 1:43: Elizabeth's use of "Mother of my Lord" is the equivalent of "Holy Mary, Mother of God" which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus' Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus' human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures). Honor indeed!

You also failed to point out Luke 1:44 - Mary's voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth's womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor.

Another note is again from Luke 1:48, Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the "Hail Mary" prayer. What Protestant churches have existed in all generations, and how many of them call Mary blessed with special prayers and devotions?

And no mention of Luke 2:35 where Simeon prophesies that a sword would also pierce Mary's soul. Mary thus plays a very important role in our redemption. While Jesus' suffering was all that we needed for redemption, God desired Mary to participate on a subordinate level in her Son's suffering, just as he allows us to participate through our own sufferings.



In Jesus, Mary and Joseph,
Jeff

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

It will be nice to have a look through what you have posted. I look forward to that!

We can certainly add your scripture (of which I left off for you to do just what you have done) to mine and still make the same point that placing Mary on a pedistal is not what the Lord suggests in scripture and is not what was ment for Mary. That Im sure it will be interesting.

My time is finished for online studies (yeah Ive learned to allot only so much) until tomorrow afternoon at the earliest.

Thanks for taking the time you have to add to this conversation. Im sure we, you and I umm and your other posting friends, will remain two sides of a coin, but in common we walk on the path the Lord Jesus Christ made for us - in that we can celebrate together.

Regards til Tuesday or Wednesday,
RTH

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

Funny you left out ....

Seems to me you have nothing to say about the scripture in support of keeping Mary just like we are to the Lord......

That leaves me with volumes of unspoken agreement from you to that scripture I posted!

You will leave our kind and fair readers to such thoughts?

 

[Wolseley]

Here is what I know about the Catholic view of Mary.

She is:

Mary is a human being. She is not a goddess.

Correct.

But she is the mother of Jesus (that vessel I mentioned in an earlier posting). She carried him in her womb for nine months.

Correct.

Mary is "theotokos" aka literally means "God-bearer", therefore worthy of praise.

Half correct. Theotokos does mean "God-bearer"; however, she is worthy of praise because of her obedience, humility, devotion to Christ, and her virtuous life.

So we now make a jump folks, from being a GOD bearer to a spiritial mother thanks to some confusion about Rev 12.....(snip for purposes of keeping the post short)....And because she supposedly has a special thrown, prayers can be heard by her and she will then speak to her son.

Revelation 12 is apocalyptic literature, meaning that the symbolic images it contains are capable of multiple interpretations. The traditional Catholic interpretation of Rev. 12 has always seen the woman as Mary, but there are variant interpretations.

None of them matter one way or the other. The Catholic Church has always identified Mary as an intercessor, as well as other saints as intercessors (see Justin Martyr, First Apology, Chapter VI {148 AD}, Athenagoras of Athens, Supplication For the Christians, Chapter X {177 AD}, and The Martyrdom of Polycarp, {180 AD} for examples).

Now, one final reason Catholics state Mary will speak on a prayer's behalf is from a request she made of Christ while they both were still alive.

Part of her job is that of intercessor; she did it in this world, and she does it in the next.

Now thoughts of praying to Mary for help dates back to 250 ad with an ancient Marian prayer.

Sub Tuum Prasedium is the earliest written example of Mary as protector and intercessor; there are artistic representations in Roman catacombs of Mary as protector going back to about 180 AD.

So, is this special devotion something GOD wants?

His scripture seems to state the specialness is not for her....

Well, don't forget that in our view, His Scripture is only one part of His revelation to man.

He has also given us His Word in the form of Apostolic Tradition, and in the form of dogma promulgated by ecumencial councils. So, as I have stated before, the fact that a specific Catholic does not appear to be clearly spelled out in the pages of the Bible is, for all practical intents and purposes, more or less irrelevant.

Certainly, you could say that many of the Marian doctrines are lacking in Scripture; but that's sort of like walking into court with only half the evidence available. Not a good way to win your case, one might say.

As always, your mileage may vary.

 

[TScott]

Bla bla bla... Lets park the "you dont seem bit" for a moment, shall we?

Alrighty then.

Here is what I know about the Catholic view of Mary.....blah, blah, blah and blah...

I'm afraid that spending a few hours on the internet is not going to help you know anything.

Christians like to pray in Communion with others. That's why many of their prayers refer to not just the individual but others; "Our Father...", etc. "We believe in the Communion of saints..." is how the Apostles creed goes. Christians believe that Jesus teaches them to pray and prays with them in their prayers, Mary, and other saints as well.

 

[Luchnia]

raptureticketholder, you will have your hands full here, but keep pressing toward the mark of the high calling in Christ! It is like once the dead horse is beaten, the carcuss is beaten even further and tanned out to be worn as a garment, but in this case it has been beaten untill there is only a bit of hair left! HAHAHAHA

Plain WORD won't do it friend. It takes Him and the guidance of the Spirit to make the Word live. At least the rest of us don't have to have Mary for our "spiritual mother" or "queen of heaven" or whatever. I no more pray to Mary than I do "Joe" the bumb down on the street corner.

At this stage, the word "baroque" comes to mind for some odd reason. Don't you think that if Mary knew she would be God's wife, she would have lived a bit different? It must have never dawned on her all of her days on earth. She definitely would have waited to have more kids with God instead of having other children with an earthly man as she did?

HAHAHAAA Man, this stuff is hilarious

Word up!

 

[Wolseley]

Congratulations, Luchnia. You have earned another official warning, thanks to the post above.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

raptureticketholder, you will have your hands full here, but keep pressing toward the mark of the high calling in Christ! It is like once the dead horse is beaten, the carcuss is beaten even further and tanned out to be worn as a garment, but in this case it has been beaten untill there is only a bit of hair left! HAHAHAHA

Hardly. I'm seeing an impasse. The unstoppable force up against the immovable object.

Plain WORD won't do it friend. It takes Him and the guidance of the Spirit to make the Word live.

Trans: "these catholics don't have the Holy Spirit like we superior fundamentalists do"

At least the rest of us don't have to have Mary for our "spiritual mother" or "queen of heaven" or whatever.

Yes you do. If Jesus is your adopted brother, then she is your adopted mother. Simple familial relationship. And if Jesus is King of Heaven, then His mother is Queen of Heaven, because the mother of a King is a Queen. Simple protocol.

I no more pray to Mary than I do "Joe" the bumb down on the street corner.

Joe's not the comparison. Do you ask mature Christians you trust to pray for you? If so, why not Mary?

At this stage, the word "baroque" comes to mind for some odd reason.

Perhaps you're thinking of Bach's setting of the Magnificat.

Don't you think that if Mary knew she would be God's wife

When did this suddenly come in?

she would have lived a bit different?

Why? How did she live? You have a record of the secret sins of the Mother of God?

It must have never dawned on her all of her days on earth. She definitely would have waited to have more kids with God instead of having other children with an earthly man as she did?

Or didn't. The tradition says she didn't. Reference to Jesus' brothers need not mean those of the same mother and father.

HAHAHAAA Man, this stuff is hilarious

There's nothing hilarious about your arrogance and disrespect towards other Christians.

Word up![/QUOTE]

 

[Luchnia]

So it is against forum rules for me to find this hilarious? I get another warning for what exactly? Because I ask you questions and you don't agree with me, then I am warned? If I find your view baroque? If I don't agree with your opinion of Mary? There was no attack in my post or no rules broken. Can you show me a lie in my post? What is your reason for this?

Karl, your intepretation and perception of my post is incorrect.
Word up!

 

[Wolseley]

So it is against forum rules for me to find this hilarious? I get another warning for what exactly? Because I ask you questions and you don't agree with me, then I am warned? If I find your view baroque? If I don't agree with your opinion of Mary? There was no attack in my post or no rules broken. Can you show me a lie in my post? What is your reason for this?

Luchnia, how dumb do you expect us to be? I find it very difficult to believe that you can produce a post as arrogant, sarcastic, and just plain snotty as you did above and then expect people to believe that you haven't the faintest idea why people are offended by it.

But, just for giggles, we'll go through it, point, by point, for the benefit of the lurkers and the truly confused.

raptureticketholder, you will have your hands full here

Implication: Catholics are blinded by error and stubbornly refuse to see the light of the "true Gospel".

but keep pressing toward the mark of the high calling in Christ!

Translation: Keep trying to bring the Catholics out of their error and false doctrine by preaching the "true Gospel" to them.

It is like once the dead horse is beaten, the carcuss is beaten even further and tanned out to be worn as a garment, but in this case it has been beaten untill there is only a bit of hair left! HAHAHAHA

Translation: You can talk all day, but these Catholics are stubborn and refuse to admit they're wrong.

Plain WORD won't do it friend. It takes Him and the guidance of the Spirit to make the Word live.

Implication: If you Catholics had the slightest clue about the Ultimate Truth, you'd know we Fundamentalists have the real guidance of the Spirit. You Catholics obviously do not have the leading of the Spirit, or else you wouldn't be mired in your false doctrines.

At least the rest of us don't have to have Mary for our "spiritual mother" or "queen of heaven" or whatever. I no more pray to Mary than I do "Joe" the bumb down on the street corner.

Translation: Catholic doctrines are at best foolishness and at worst filthy lies, and therefore, it's okay to mock them.

Added to this is the unnecessary and gratuitous slam at Mary, equating her with the bum down the street. You are fully aware of the reverence Catholics pay to Mary, but well, what the hey, Catholic doctrines about Mary are erroneous lies anyway, so it's okay to disparage their reverence of Mary, right? Let's see if we can get them stirred up!

At this stage, the word "baroque" comes to mind for some odd reason.

Translation: Catholic doctrines are needlessly complicated and twisted, subverting the simplicity of the Gospel, and therefore, it's okay to mock them.

Don't you think that if Mary knew she would be God's wife, she would have lived a bit different? It must have never dawned on her all of her days on earth. She definitely would have waited to have more kids with God instead of having other children with an earthly man as she did?

Translation: Are you Catholics really this stupid that you believe this garbage?

HAHAHAAA Man, this stuff is hilarious

Translation: You Catholics are fools, morons, and idiots. I laugh in your face.

Do you honestly expect anybody to believe that you are incapable of seeing how offensive your post, and the tone of your post is, Luchnia? Give me a break. You say you broke no rules. There were enough violations of Rule #2 in that post alone---never mind the rest of your posts of similar vein---to garner you the warning you received.

However, you're batting 200----you have received two warnings inside of the span of a week, and if you collect one more, you will be permanently banned from the site.

Care to try for Strike Three?

 

[Luchnia]

Wolsely, you get your way. Since the rules were not broken by my post, I guess you have your own set of rules for the forum. So be it, it is all yours. I can see how difficult it must be to see both sides of the coin as a moderator when you are only on one side of it. Thanks for your time you have taken in your position to reprimand and correct me in my ignorance.

 

[Wolseley]

Not your ignorance, Luchnia---your attitude.

As for the rules, I suggest you review them carefully, since there seems to be a discrepancy between what they actually say and what you apparently think they say.

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

Evening Greetings!

I have a wee bit of time and will be happy to have a read through what was posted.

Now, maybe its the Bible you are using, but I usually stick by the KJV, however for newbees or those not quite on board w/Christianity I switch to NIV. I dont see some of what you are posting here to be in these english versions. It would not suprise me if you stick by the Catholic Bible and your reference came from that. Im definately not of the Catholic denom, but I think the KJV is the closest, best english translation.

I dont really like to quarrell about versions as I believe thats part of Satan's game, so I tread very lightly there.

In reference to what you are posting, here is what the version I use has to say:

Funny you left out Luke 1:28 the Angel (of God) greeting to Mary:

"Hail Mary, Full of Grace the Lord is with thee!"

In Luke 1:28 we see the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God.

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

I think you are adding a bit more than what is there - that full of grace part is not there. Hail here is used as in GREETING, not all bow down as you seem to imply.

Mary was doubtful. I dont read doubt in utter perfection.

Or how about Luke 1:38, The Blessed Virgin Mary's fiat is "let it be done to me according to thy word." Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration.

38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Curious thought there Jeff....I wonder just how many of us have accepted the role the Lord lays out with the same sort of desires Mary had to please. Is she the sole reward taker in this area? Shall praise only be hers umong women who do the Lords will? Sure she is a wonderful role model, but then so many of the Lord's chosen are!

Luke 1:42[/b] - "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus." The phrase "blessed are you among women" really means "you are most blessed of all women."

Does it now? Are you so sure? Among women of all time - those alive - those passed on. There are plenty of women in all the ages who were blessed by and through the Lord. Ruth comes to mind. Im sure you could make a modern day case of it for Mother Tereasa. This is the pedistal that will get you into the "hero worship" the Lord warns us about. Id suggest to anyone to be careful treading these waters.

A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus.

Its interesting you would take a worship que from someone such as yourself (Elizabeth) - a normal person just like you and I now holds the charge of a large portion of Catholic worship. Did the Lord justify this via Elizabeth, that one is to praise Mary and THEN Jesus? If its not from the Lord who is it from......hummmm

Also, let's check out Luke 1:43: Elizabeth's use of "Mother of my Lord" is the equivalent of "Holy Mary, Mother of God" which Catholics pray in the Rosary.

What Im seeing from you is a ton of subsitution. There is no scripture backup from the Lord that supports this claim. I think this is a huge falicy. I believe you have taken the word of a mere woman (one of which that did not say THE LORD TOLD ME OR INSPIRED ME) and turned it into something its not. Why do you do this?

Luke 1:44 - Mary's voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth's womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor.

Just how many babies leap in the womb? Play a bit of music and it happens. You've taken a sweet detail of a pregnant woman's normal experience and turned it into worship. So from this normal fetal activity you learn that you can pray for help from a dead woman?

Luke 1:48, Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the "Hail Mary" prayer.

Do you believe Mary was a prophet? The Lord said, my prophet Mary? Did this thought of Mary's come from GOD or just Mary's feelings?

What Protestant churches have existed in all generations, and how many of them call Mary blessed with special prayers and devotions?

Im not sure any of them want to make the same mistake. Revelation shows us that there are several churches and each one has its troubles. The Catholic faith is not without its problems and I truely believe this is one of them. Can you blame anyone for wanting to steer clear of such trouble?

Luke 2:35[/b] where Simeon prophesies that a sword would also pierce Mary's soul.

Oh wow! What mother would not feel such pain at her son's terrible death?
Well, I think the Catholic church has taken these comon place notions and lifted them up to something that was not ment to be.

I am grateful Ive had the chance to share. I believe both sides of this coin has been born for all to see and evaluate, most likely for the millionth time, but new to some. I can not see anything further to mention of importance, but if you do, post - I will check back.

I by all means do not wish to say that within a Catholic setting, the Lord can not be found; but my hope is that all honor, praise and worship is directed to Him and Him alone. The servents found within His grace remain just that, the servents He called on, nothing more, nothing less.

Sending Kind Regards your way,

RTH

edited for html coding.

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

humm, I dont know why half of my last posting is in bold. Maybe the Lord is telling us all something! He indeed uses anything and everything!

 

[Wolseley]

Mary was doubtful. I dont read doubt in utter perfection.

We never said she was perfect----we said she was conceived without stain of original sin.

What Im seeing from you is a ton of subsitution. There is no scripture backup from the Lord that supports this claim. I think this is a huge falicy. I believe you have taken the word of a mere woman (one of which that did not say THE LORD TOLD ME OR INSPIRED ME) and turned it into something its not. Why do you do this?

Because we don't depend on Scripture alone.

You've taken a sweet detail of a pregnant woman's normal experience and turned it into worship.

We don't worship Mary.

So from this normal fetal activity you learn that you can pray for help from a dead woman?

So people in heaven, Mary included, are dead?

Im not sure any of them want to make the same mistake. Revelation shows us that there are several churches and each one has its troubles. The Catholic faith is not without its problems and I truely believe this is one of them. Can you blame anyone for wanting to steer clear of such trouble?

I know of Protestant churches where people play with poisonsous snakes and drink strychnine, where women are not allowed to open their mouths and must be covered in cloth head to foot, where the pastor has been busted for spending the night with prostitutes, where the pastor has been busted for spending the offerings of the faithful on air-conditioned doghouses, where children are abused, where the members of the church drink poisoned Kool-Aid, where they barricade themselves inside a fortress and end up getting barbecued by the government.

Can you blame anyone for wanting to steer clear of such trouble?

I by all means do not wish to say that within a Catholic setting, the Lord can not be found; but my hope is that all honor, praise and worship is directed to Him and Him alone.

Catholics do not worship saints.

Sending Kind Regards your way,

RTH

Benedicat vos omnipotens Deus,
---Wols.

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

We never said she was perfect----we said she was conceived without stain of original sin.

Because we don't depend on Scripture alone.

We don't worship Mary.

So people in heaven, Mary included, are dead?

I know of Protestant churches where people play with poisonsous snakes and drink strychnine, where women are not allowed to open their mouths and must be covered in cloth head to foot, where the pastor has been busted for spending the night with prostitutes, where the pastor has been busted for spending the offerings of the faithful on air-conditioned doghouses, where children are abused, where the members of the church drink poisoned Kool-Aid, where they barricade themselves inside a fortress and end up getting barbecued by the government.

Can you blame anyone for wanting to steer clear of such trouble?

Catholics do not worship saints.

Benedicat vos omnipotens Deus,
---Wols.

It saddens me that you feel more than scripture is needed. I would advise anyone to steer clear of outside sorces as the Bible cautions.

The folks who are in heaven, and hell for that matter, are dead to this life. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think your worship includes aspects of Mary that are not true. Im not within your heart to know what worship you partake in. I can only make my thoughts based on what you present. The presentation of actions seems to show worship, yet the lip service says otherwise. That is what I question.

Heck, I steer clear of churches like that.

Benedicat vos omnipotens Deus - thank you.