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Godzman

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TScott said:
I defer to you Michelle, it would appear that it is I, not Mr. Godzman, who doesn't know as much as he thinks he does.

However, the Immaculate Conception does refer to the conception of Mary by her mother St. Anne. It was suggested in the Protevangelium that Anne was barren (not virgin). EIther way, the point of the Immaculate Conception is that Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin. How this was achieved has been debated among the different churches since the days of Thomas Aquinas.
well i ain't not catholic theologian, and I am only 19 but it would seem to me that she was forgiven her sins by God, and pure for the Holy Ghost came upon her, and Jesus was concieved by her, but hey I could be wrong according to Catholic theology I don't know
 
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Miss Shelby

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TScott said:
I defer to you Michelle, it would appear that it is I, not Mr. Godzman, who doesn't know as much as he does.
Not a problem. :)
However, the Immaculate Conception does refer to the conception of Mary by her mother St. Anne. It was suggested in the Protevangelium that Anne was barren (not virgin). EIther way, the point of the Immaculate Conception is that Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin. How this was achieved has been debated among the different churches since the days of Thomas Aquinas.
I don't think St. Anne being barren really has anything to do with it at all. After all, Rachel was barren, too. :) And yes the Church teaches that Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin, this was achieved because God applied the saving Grace of Christ to her in advance so that she could bear the New Covenant, and be a pure dwelling place for God. This is a belief supported by Apostolic Tradition and a proclamation made by the Church, which I hold to be true. No debate necessary for me. :)

Michelle
 
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Godzman

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Miss Shelby said:
Not a problem. :)
I don't think St. Anne being barren really has anything to do with it at all. After all, Rachel was barren, too. :) And yes the Church teaches that Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin, this was achieved because God applied the saving Grace of Christ to her in advance so that she could bear the New Covenant, and be a pure dwelling place for God. This is a belief supported by Apostolic Tradition and a proclamation made by the Church, which I hold to be true. No debate necessary for me. :)

Michelle

I don't know the teaching of many but I do believe Mary was capable of sin as we all are, original sin I don't know the word is not clear on that, but at the time of conception of Jesus she would have to be pure, being a virgin was just physically pure, but being spiritually pure is a whole nother issue not really covered, but God knows, so I will leave it to him
 
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aggie03

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I don't believe that anything special had to happen for Mary to be born without original sin, because I don't believe that anyone is born with it. So, I agree that she was born without sin, but so were you and everyone else on this forum.
 
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Acceptance

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I do believe Mary was capable of sin as we all are, original sin I don't know the word is not clear on that,
(my emphesis)


There are many things the bible itself are not totally clear on, which is why Tradition is soooo important.;)
 
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Luchnia

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If Mary wasn't a sinner, why did she call Jesus her savior? Yes, Mary knew she needed saving just like all the rest that sinned.

We see that Mary was a sinner by her own words about God being her saviour (Lk 1:46,47). This also disproves any opinion of immaculate conception. Also, we cannot find ONE scripture that even hints that Mary was sinless. She had to be a sinner in order to be saved.

Word up!
 
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Philip

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Luchnia said:
If Mary wasn't a sinner, why did she call Jesus her savior?

She remained free of sin by the grace of God. That makes God her Savior.

She had to be a sinner in order to be saved.

The fact that God preserved her from sin shows that He saved her even without her having sinned.
 
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JeffreyLloyd

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Luchnia said:
There is no fact that God preserved Mary from sin and nothing shows that she was saved without having sinned. That is speculation and not fact.

Word up!

What did the angel say to Mary?

Hail Mary, Full of Grace
 
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JeffreyLloyd

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The Fathers of the Church taught that Mary received a number of distinctive blessings in order to make her a more fitting mother for Christ and the prototypical Christian (follower of Christ). These blessings included her role as the New Eve (corresponding to Christ’s role as the New Adam), her Immaculate Conception, her spiritual motherhood of all Christians, and her Assumption into heaven. These gifts were given to her by God’s grace. She did not earn them, but she possessed them nonetheless.

The key to understanding all these graces is Mary’s role as the New Eve, which the Fathers proclaimed so forcefully. Because she is the New Eve, she, like the New Adam, was born immaculate, just as the First Adam and Eve were created immaculate. Because she is the New Eve, she is mother of the New Humanity (Christians), just as the first Eve was the mother of humanity. And, because she is the New Eve, she shares the fate of the New Adam. Whereas the First Adam and Eve died and went to dust, the New Adam and Eve were lifted up physically into heaven.

Of particular interest in the following quotations from the Fathers are those that speak of Mary’s immaculate nature. We will all one day be rendered immaculate (sinless), but Mary, as the prototypical Christian, received this grace early. God granted her freedom from sin to make her a fitting mother for his Son.

Even before the terms "original sin" and "immaculate conception" had been defined, early passages imply the doctrines. Many works mention that Mary gave birth to Jesus without pain. But pain in childbearing is part of the penalty of original sin (Gen. 3:16). Thus, Mary could not have been under that penalty. By God’s grace, she was immaculate in anticipation of her Son’s redemptive death on the cross. The Church therefore describes Mary as "the most excellent fruit of redemption" (CCC 508).


The Ascension of Isaiah

"[T]he report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain’" (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]).


The Odes of Solomon

"So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . " (Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80]).


Justin Martyr

"[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ [Luke 1:38]" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).

More here:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp
 
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Luchnia

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Jeffrey Lloyd said:
The Fathers of the Church taught that Mary received a number of distinctive blessings in order to make her a more fitting mother for Christ and the prototypical Christian (follower of Christ). These blessings included her role as the New Eve (corresponding to Christ’s role as the New Adam), her Immaculate Conception, her spiritual motherhood of all Christians, and her Assumption into heaven. These gifts were given to her by God’s grace. She did not earn them, but she possessed them nonetheless.


The Father of The Church never taught that Mary received a number of distinctive blessings in order to make her a more fitting mother for Christ and the prototypical Christian (follower of Christ). The Father of The Church did not state that these blessings included her role as the New Eve (corresponding to Christ’s role as the New Adam), her Immaculate Conception, her spiritual motherhood of all Christians, and her Assumption into heaven, nor did He state that any of these things were even evident. There is no evidence to support such claims about Mary, a simple woman that was a sinner in need of a savior of whom she had to come through as all sinners did.

Word up!
 
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Miss Shelby

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Luchnia said:
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The Father of The Church never taught that Mary received a number of distinctive blessings in order to make her a more fitting mother for Christ and the prototypical Christian (follower of Christ). The Father of The Church did not state that these blessings included her role as the New Eve (corresponding to Christ’s role as the New Adam), her Immaculate Conception, her spiritual motherhood of all Christians, and her Assumption into heaven, nor did He state that any of these things were even evident. There is no evidence to support such claims about Mary, a simple woman that was a sinner in need of a savior


The Church Fathers, Luchnia. These were the great teachers in the Church in ancient of days. Some of them walked with the original Apostles. We hold their teachings in high regard because many of their early writings existed before the Bible was even compiled!

Word up!

Michelle
 
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JeffreyLloyd

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Luchnia said:
[/font]

The Father of The Church never taught that Mary received a number of distinctive blessings in order to make her a more fitting mother for Christ and the prototypical Christian (follower of Christ). The Father of The Church did not state that these blessings included her role as the New Eve (corresponding to Christ’s role as the New Adam), her Immaculate Conception, her spiritual motherhood of all Christians, and her Assumption into heaven, nor did He state that any of these things were even evident. There is no evidence to support such claims about Mary, a simple woman that was a sinner in need of a savior of whom she had to come through as all sinners did.

Word up!

As my little brother says, "Don't sing it... bring it." Care to quote any fathers to back you up? I can! I'll add some more:

Irenaeus

"Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband—for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiply—having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith" (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

"The Lord then was manifestly coming to his own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation that is supported by himself. He was making a recapitulation of that disobedience that had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience that was upon a tree [i.e., the cross]. Furthermore, the original deception was to be done away with—the deception by which that virgin Eve (who was already espoused to a man) was unhappily misled. That this was to be overturned was happily announced through means of the truth by the angel to the Virgin Mary (who was also [espoused] to a man). . . . So if Eve disobeyed God, yet Mary was persuaded to be obedient to God. In this way, the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so it is rescued by a virgin. Virginal disobedience has been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way, the sin of the first created man received amendment by the correction of the First-Begotten" (ibid., 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).


Tertullian

"And again, lest I depart from my argumentation on the name of Adam: Why is Christ called Adam by the apostle [Paul], if as man he was not of that earthly origin? But even reason defends this conclusion, that God recovered his image and likeness by a procedure similar to that in which he had been robbed of it by the devil. It was while Eve was still a virgin that the word of the devil crept in to erect an edifice of death. Likewise through a virgin the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. Thus what had been laid waste in ruin by this sex was by the same sex reestablished in salvation. Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight" (The Flesh of Christ 17:4 [A.D. 210].


Pseudo-Melito

"If therefore it might come to pass by the power of your grace, it has appeared right to us your servants that, as you, having overcome death, do reign in glory, so you should raise up the body of your Mother and take her with you, rejoicing, into heaven. Then said the Savior [Jesus]: ‘Be it done according to your will’" (The Passing of the Virgin 16:2–17 [A.D. 300]).


Ephraim the Syrian

"You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?" (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]).


Ambrose of Milan

"Mary’s life should be for you a pictorial image of virginity. Her life is like a mirror reflecting the face of chastity and the form of virtue. Therein you may find a model for your own life . . . showing what to improve, what to imitate, what to hold fast to" (The Virgins 2:2:6 [A.D. 377]).

"The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater [to teach by example] than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? What more chaste than she who bore a body without contact with another body? For why should I speak of her other virtues? She was a virgin not only in body but also in mind, who stained the sincerity of its disposition by no guile, who was humble in heart, grave in speech, prudent in mind, sparing of words, studious in reading, resting her hope not on uncertain riches, but on the prayer of the poor, intent on work, modest in discourse; wont to seek not man but God as the judge of her thoughts, to injure no one, to have goodwill towards all, to rise up before her elders, not to envy her equals, to avoid boastfulness, to follow reason, to love virtue. When did she pain her parents even by a look? When did she disagree with her neighbors? When did she despise the lowly? When did she avoid the needy?" (ibid., 2:2:7).

"Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin" (Commentary on Psalm 118:22–30 [A.D. 387]).


Augustine

"Our Lord . . . was not averse to males, for he took the form of a male, nor to females, for of a female he was born. Besides, there is a great mystery here: that just as death comes to us through a woman, life is born to us through a woman; that the devil, defeated, would be tormented by each nature, feminine and masculine, as he had taken delight in the defection of both" (Christian Combat 22:24 [A.D. 396]).

"That one woman is both mother and virgin, not in spirit only but even in body. In spirit she is mother, not of our head, who is our Savior himself—of whom all, even she herself, are rightly called children of the bridegroom—but plainly she is the mother of us who are his members, because by love she has cooperated so that the faithful, who are the members of that head, might be born in the Church. In body, indeed, she is the Mother of that very head" (Holy Virginity 6:6 [A.D. 401]).
 
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Miss Shelby

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JeffreyLloyd said:
As my little brother says, "Don't sing it... bring it." Care to quote any fathers to back you up? I can! I'll add some more:
You actually want me to work for a living around here? :D

Okay, I apologize if I am being redundant:

"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one."
Origen,Homily 1(A.D. 244)



"Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary."
Ephraim,Hymns on the Nativity,15:23(A.D. 370)



"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother."
"Ephraem,Nisibene Hymns,27:8(A.D. 370)



O Virgin Immaculate, Mother of God and my Mother, from your sublime heights turn your eyes of pity on my. Filled with confidence in your goodness and knowing full well your power, I beg you to extend to me your assistance in the journey of life, which is so full of dangers for my soul. In order that I may never be a slave of the devil through sin, but may ever live with my heart humble and pure, I entrust myself wholly to you. I consecrate my heart to you forever, my only desire being to love your divine Son, Jesus. Mary, none of your devout servants has ever perished; may I, too, be saved. Amen.
Ephraem the Syrian, Prayer to the Immaculate Mother of God(370 A.D.)
Michelle
 
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JeffreyLloyd

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Luchnia said:
Maybe a quote from the Head of the Church would be more appropriate. Look at Lk 11:27-28.

Hmmm...seems Jesus, kept Mary in her place among all of the saints! I guess the church fathers missed it somewhere.

Word up!

As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you." He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."

Jesus is the one being complimented, not Mary. Therefore, Jesus is refocusing the attention from Him to others who obey the word of God. If He is refocusing the attention away from Him to others, His comment cannot be a rebuke of Mary His mother in anyway!.

also, the Greek word for "rather" is "menounge." Menounge really means "Yes, but in addition," or "Further." Thus, Jesus is saying, yes my mother is blessed indeed, but further blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it. Jesus is encouraging others to follow Mary's example in order to build up His kingdom.
 
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Miss Shelby

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Luchnia said:
Maybe a quote from the Head of the Church would be more appropriate. Look at Lk 11:27-28.

Hmmm...seems Jesus, kept Mary in her place among all of the saints! I guess the church fathers missed it somewhere.

Word up!
Luchnia,

Mary did do the will of God, we know this. If you want to show from Scripture that she didn't, go right ahead, but I don't think you will be able to.

I want you to answer this. Did Jesus disrespect His mother in that passage? You are saying He did, because you are saying that He said that His mother didn't do the will of God, right in front of a bunch of people. That would have been considered a violation of the fourth commandment, and He would have been stoned to death. We know He didn't sin, so your interpretation makes no sense, imo.

Michelle
 
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