Mary

[ScottBot]

Hello oblio

Thou shalt not make to thyself an idol, nor likeness of anything,

yours in Christ
deu 58

Numbers 21:8-9, And the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live."

So, God can command us not to make an idol, and then contradict Himself and command us to make one?

 

[deu58]

Hi scott_lafrance

Neither do you. You have yet to make a compelling, Scripture-in-toto arguement. You have cited various random verses, but nothing cogent or irrefutable.

It only takes one verse to wipe out centuries of man made traditions,

1jo 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen

Now you can sing and dance and claim victory all day long but the only one's who woill believe you are catholics,

The examples you use from the Old Testament are art, They were not created to be knelt in front of and worshipped, The bronze serpent was an acting out of prophecy concerning the coming of Christ and and the cross,

If you will look you will see that they were told to look upon it and they would be saved,

Nu 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

Nu 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

They were not told to bow before it and worship, There is not one instance of any one worshiping anyone or anything other than Jesus or God in the entire bible,

you are looking for loophools where there are not any,

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[ScottBot]

Hi scott_lafrance



It only takes one verse to wipe out centuries of man made traditions,

1jo 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen

Now you can sing and dance and claim victory all day long but the only one's who woill believe you are catholics,

The examples you use from the Old Testament are art, They were not created to be knelt in front of and worshipped, The bronze serpent was an acting out of prophecy concerning the coming of Christ and and the cross,

If you will look you will see that they were told to look upon it and they would be saved,

Nu 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

Nu 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

They were not told to bow before it and worship, There is not one instance of any one worshiping anyone or anything other than Jesus or God in the entire bible,

you are looking for loophools where there are not any,

yours in Christ
deu 58

Nice try, but your previous post indicated that God forbid the making of ANY idol (graven image), but then later He commands Moses to make a brass serpent (a graven image). You can't have it both ways. Either God allows for the religious use of images or He doesn't.

 

[deu58]

Hi scott_Lafrance

Nice try, but your previous post indicated that God forbid the making of ANY idol (graven image), but then later He commands Moses to make a brass serpent (a graven image). You can't have it both ways. Either God allows for the religious use of images or He doesn't.

Who wrote the Bible? Me or God? What is Gods command?

Ex 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Ex 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Do you see any exemptions concerning the bowing down part of the commandment any where in either the Old or the New Testament?

Can you show where any one any where in scripture we are given permision today to do this?

That is what you need to show if you want to truly prove that my last post was just a nice try,

 

[Oblio]

Who has authenticated these paintings?

The same pillar and foundation of truth that authenticated Holy Scripture.

And even if he did, Did he paint them for the purpose of kneeling before them for prayer and worship?

The usual swine bedding, I'm not surprized. How about you stick to debating what we believe and do, rather than what anti-Apostolics think we beieve and practice.

You always explain away this part of the commandment,

Pretty hypocritical, coming from one the picks and chooses one phrase out of one sentence of Scripture.

 

[Oblio]

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them

And what is them ?

They are graven images of idols. Picking and choosing and discecting Scripture is a sure path to misunderstanding the word of God.

 

[prodromos]

Ex 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Ex 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Where did I leave anything out?

1 Kings chapters 6 and 7 for starters

John

 

[deu58]

Hi oblio

That is taught nowhere in that verse. It simply says to hold fast to the traditions that we have been taught (which we do BTW). What we cannot do is forsake those traditions given to us by the Apostles. A command ignored by many Christians (and most in the US).

Ortodoxusa posted a whole bunch of things on another thread concerning traditions, When I challenged him to prove several of these things from the bible claiming that they were unbiblical in and of themselves he said not every thing concerning Christianity is in the Bible

I interpret that to mean " I can't" Your Idea that you have held true to the apostolic teachings is no where near as true as you seem to believe,

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[ScottBot]

Around and around and around it goes, where it stops, nobody knows......

 

[Oblio]

I interpret that to mean " I can't" Your Idea that you have held true to the apostolic teachings is no where near as true as you seem to believe,

Coming from one who is relatively clueless concerning the apostolic teaching of the Church, I find that amusing.

 

[deu58]

Hi Prodomos

1 Kings chapters 6 and 7 for starters

John

So you mean to say that the Jews were actually supposed to be worshipping the art work of the temple??? They knelt before different pillars and tables and prayed to them to intercede with God on their behalf?

Hail curtain full of grace? That is the argument John, Where are we taught or given permission to kneel or bow down before these things,

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[ScottBot]

If I bow down and worship before a statue of Jesus, am I worshipping the statue, or am I worshipping Jesus?

 

[GenemZ]

Hi Oblio



Oi yoi yoi!!!You totally deny that there ever was a period in historry called the drak age???? That has got to but to be worst case of denial I have ever seen!!!

The reason it was called the Dark Ages is because the Church is supposed to be the light of the world (Mat 5:14).

I also saw that denial. I figured, "why bother?" But, since you responded, I figured I'd add a few nails in the Wittenberg door, too.

John 12:46 niv
"I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness."

The Church was in such darkness in those days, that if anyone broke through to light they would either excummincate, or kill you. But! Its by the words of those "spiritual" giants that we are to be fenced in today in what we are allowed to think. It reminds me of how Islam is stuck back about 2000 years in the past. And, they will kill you if you see the light if they could. Religion competes with grace. It will always persecute those who are blessed by grace. We wrestle not against flesh and blood. Martin Luther found grace. Then the church's hitmen tried to find him.

"It was not the dark ages?"

Isaiah 8:20 niv
"To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn."


Ephesians 5:8 niv
"For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light."
Grace and light, GeneZ

 

[Oblio]

[c]

Scenes from the Book of Esther in a 2nd c. Jewish Synagogue[/c]

 

[deu58]

Hello Oblio

The same pillar and foundation of truth that authenticated Holy Scripture.

You mean God himself actually authenticated these paintings?

The usual swine bedding, I'm not surprized. How about you stick to debating what we believe and do, rather than what anti-Apostolics think we beieve and practice.

We are debating what you believe and do, You kneel before pictures and pray to them do things for you,

Pretty hypocritical, coming from one the picks and chooses one phrase out of one sentence of Scripture.

Great answer, I interpret that to mean "I do not have an answer for that one"

I have posted that entire commandment before once even asking you about the part dealing with imagry and you gave no answer, So I purposely selected the section I wanted you to answer and answer it you did,

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[ScottBot]

The reason it was called the Dark Ages is because the Church is supposed to be the light of the world (Mat 5:14).

I also saw that denial. I figured, "why bother?" But, since you responded, I figured I'd add a few nails in the Wittenberg door, too.

Go ahead, what's a few more to add to Luther's error. Wrong is wrong, no matter how high you pile it.

John 12:46
"I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness."

The Church was in such darkness in those days, that if anyone broke through to light they would either excummincate, or kill you. But! Its by the words of those "spiritual" giants that we are to be fenced in today in what we are allowed to think. It reminds me of how Islam is stuck back about 2000 years in the past. And, they will kill you if you see the light if they could. Religion competes with grace. It will always persecute those who are blessed by grace. We wrestle not against flesh and blood. Martin Luther found grace. Then the church's hitmen tried to find him.

"It was not the dark ages?"

Opinion, conjecture, unsubstantiated, lacking in credibility. If you took Islam back 2,000 years, you would be in the middle of the Arabian desert 600 years before the birth of Mohammed, i.e. a bunch of pagan camel herders.

Isaiah 8:20"To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn."

Ephesians 5:8"For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light."
Grace and light, GeneZ

Let us know when you have some relevant explanation for these passages and how they are germain to this topic.

Peace be with you.

 

[Oblio]

You mean God himself actually authenticated these paintings?

Indeed He did !

But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
(1 Timothy 3:15 KJVA)

 

[GenemZ]

I keep hearing this, but it is not what I hear Genez saying. The only division I hear him speaking of is in Christ's functions. As a man He functioned in one capacity and as God He functioned in another capacity. If that is what he is indeed saying, then why is that so hard to understand? I function as wife, mother, friend. It seems a similar thing to me when Paul discussed the Church. We are all members of one body yet each have a different function in that body. We are not a million (or so) bodies but one body.

Maybe I'm hearing him wrong but ......

peace

Mark 4:23 niv
"If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear."

Your hearing is just fine! Its perplexing how the same thing spoken can be taken in opposite ways. But, its a spiritual principle of grace. Grace gives the spiritual believer the honor to become a part of something. Religion always tries to hammer down the barrier that denies them access. Religion also sets up its own system to make it feel like it has something equal to, or even better, than what grace recieves freely from God.

God says to every believer who sees in their weakness the strength of grace....

Matthew 13:16 niv
"But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear."

Grace and more grace, GeneZ

 

[deu58]

Hi Scott_lafrance

If I bow down and worship before a statue of Jesus, am I worshipping the statue, or am I worshipping Jesus?

Again I did not write the bible God did, Niether statues nor images have any life in them, God is creator of life, He has already created his own image,

Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

When you bow down before a stutue of Mary or Paul who are you praying to?

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[ScottBot]

Hi Scott_lafrance



Again I did not write the bible God did, Niether statues nor images have any life in them, God is creator of life, He has already created his own image,

Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

When you bow down before a stutue of Mary or Paul who are you praying to?

yours in Christ
deu 58

I'll answer your question when you can forthrightly answer mine.