Mary

[Jerrysch]

Icons are not idols, nor are they graven images. I think it is best not to leave words out when quoting scripture, don't you?

John

what is a graven image?

 

[prodromos]

Ahhhem.... If Mary was the mother of God? Then Jesus was created.

Indeed, His human flesh and soul are created. This is the mystery of the incarnation, that the uncreated would become one with His creation, and a fallen and corrupt creation at that. It is not surprising that people have such a hard time grasping this, as it is something which never happened before in the history of creation, nor will it ever happen again. The incarnation is totally unique and beyond anything which our feeble minds have ever dealt with.

John.

 

[prodromos]

what is a graven image?

Something that is sculpted, hewn, carved or engraved.

 

[Oblio]

If this be the case then not one tradition should have been added after the death of the last apostle

Really, where in Scripture is this stated ?

 

[Jerrysch]

Something that is sculpted, hewn, carved or engraved.

would statues fall into the category of graven?

 

[deu58]

Hi Prodromos

Icons are not idols, nor are they graven images. I think it is best not to leave words out when quoting scripture, don't you?

John

Ex 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Ex 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Where did I leave anything out?

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[prodromos]

would statues fall into the category of graven?

Well, I guess they would, but the context of God's command not to make graven images was that no one had seen God, so they could not ever make a true image of God. Since the incarnation we have seen God, so it is now permissable to make true images of God. Remember also that the Cherubim on top of the ark were graven images and God commanded the Jews to make them, so it seems some are acceptable and some aren't. The prohibition is not a blanket condemnation of all images, just false ones.

John.

 

[deu58]

Hi oblio

Really, where in Scripture is this stated ?

Right in the very verse you posted,

2 Thessalonians 2:15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

There is no permission to add to the traditions that the apostles had already taught,

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[deu58]

Hi Prodomos

Well, I guess they would, but the context of God's command not to make graven images was that no one had seen God, so they could not ever make a true image of God. Since the incarnation we have seen God, so it is now permissable to make true images of God. Remember also that the Cherubim on top of the ark were graven images and God commanded the Jews to make them, so it seems some are acceptable and some aren't. The prohibition is not a blanket condemnation of all images, just false ones.

John.

Where is that found in scripture that we can now make graven images??????

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[Oblio]

There is no permission to add to the traditions that the apostles had already taught,

That is taught nowhere in that verse. It simply says to hold fast to the traditions that we have been taught (which we do BTW). What we cannot do is forsake those traditions given to us by the Apostles. A command ignored by many Christians (and most in the US).

 

[prodromos]

Where is that found in scripture that we can now make graven images??????

The evangelist Saint Luke had painted several icons of Mary with the Christ child long before the Gospels and Letters were ever gathered together in what we now call the New Testament. At least three of those icons survive today.

John.

 

[Oblio]

Thou shalt not make to thyself an idol, nor likeness of anything, whatever things are in the heaven above, and whatever are in the earth beneath, and whatever are in the waters under the earth

God is speaking of idols, things graven that are idols. If He were speaking simply of any sculpted or graven thing then He would be contradicting Himself when later He commanded the Israelites to create graven Cherubim. You would also be in violation for any pictures, paintings, and photographs that you posses or create.

 

[Axion]

I think it is more serious than this...the RC group encourages their membership to bow down and kneel before stone images!

Indeed? Then Protestants encourage their membership to bow down and kneel before men.

 

[Axion]

Hmmm.

Having lost the argument with respect to mary being Mother of God, and their attempt to divide Jesus into two peole, I see that the anti-catholics have again changed the subject and moved on to the old "graven image" argument.

Of course the origin of the idea that ieved "graven image" meant any image, and not just idols of false gods, was Islam.

 

[ScottBot]

God is speaking of idols, things graven that are idols. If He were speaking simply of any sculpted or graven thing then He would be contradicting Himself when later He commanded the Israelites to create graven Cherubim. You would also be in violation for any pictures, paintings, and photographs that you posses or create.

What about the bronze serpent that God commanded Moses to create and commanded the Isrealites that were bitten by snakes to look on it to be cured. I guess God was commanding the Isrealites to worship the figure of a bronze serpent. So that means that God was commanding them to do something that He commanded them not to do, which means that God must either be confused or capable of contradicting Himself.

 

[deu58]

Hello Axion

Indeed? Then Protestants encourage their membership to bow down and kneel before men.

Eh????

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[deu58]

Hello Prodomos

The evangelist Saint Luke had painted several icons of Mary with the Christ child long before the Gospels and Letters were ever gathered together in what we now call the New Testament. At least three of those icons survive today.

John.

Who has authenticated these paintings? Is it something that we know for a fact that did or is supported only by church tradition? And even if he did, Did he paint them for the purpose of kneeling before them for prayer and worship?

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[deu58]

Hmmm.

Having lost the argument with respect to mary being Mother of God, and their attempt to divide Jesus into two peole, I see that the anti-catholics have again changed the subject and moved on to the old "graven image" argument.

Of course the origin of the idea that ieved "graven image" meant any image, and not just idols of false gods, was Islam.

Lost????? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You have never had an argument in the first place, You have no scriptural support, No scripture, No arguement,

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[ScottBot]

Lost????? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You have never had an argument in the first place, You have no scriptural support, No scripture, No arguement,

yours in Christ
deu 58

Neither do you. You have yet to make a compelling, Scripture-in-toto arguement. You have cited various random verses, but nothing cogent or irrefutable.

 

[deu58]

Hello oblio

God is speaking of idols, things graven that are idols. If He were speaking simply of any sculpted or graven thing then He would be contradicting Himself when later He commanded the Israelites to create graven Cherubim. You would also be in violation for any pictures, paintings, and photographs that you posses or create.

Thou shalt not make to thyself an idol,

You always explain away this part of the commandment,



nor likeness of anything,

but you always ignore this part of the commandment, Why is that?

yours in Christ
deu 58