Mary

[GenemZ]

Gene, you might want to consider taking off your helmet of "I'm not listening to you are anything you have to say." This conversation has stagnated to the point of irrelevance.

I am listening to what you say. I just think you do not like what I know about what you have to say.

Then, I suggest you use the Ignore option. You will not see my posts.

Others may be interested.

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

He did not question their salvation. He said they were not Christians.

That is against forum rules.

Rule No. 1 - No "Flaming"
1.1 You will not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest.
1.2 You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal (ad hominem) attacks on the member himself or herself.
1.3 You will not misquote another member regardless of context.
1.4 You will not directly state or otherwise imply that another member is not a Christian.

The Council has spoken!


Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[ScottBot]

I am listening to what you say. I just think you do not like what I know about what you have to say.

Then, I suggest you use the Ignore option. You will not see my posts.

Others may be interested.

In Christ, GeneZ

No. About 5 of us on this thread have tried Scripture, the constant teaching of the Church, writings of the early Christians. You persist in this narrow interpretation of Scripture with no historical perspective, and then have the audacity to call us limited. Judge not lest ye be judged.

 

[Oblio]

One thing you have to note is that Jesus didn't have Godly powers while he was on earth.

Raising the dead is not a Godly power

The power came from God. But of course Jesus is God. Part of God, God's Word.

This is Modalism or Sabellianism, a heresy. God is three persons, not three parts.

 

[lionroar0]

Hi Lionsroar0



I was born a Greek Byzantine Catholic and was raised by my Grandmother who was extremely devoted to the church. She used to make me study the bible from the very first time I could even read,

The Bible is one of the first books I ever read cover to cover, And I am a very good reader, always have been, By the time I was ten years old I already knew that there were very serious differences in what the bible taught and what the church taught,

Every time I asked a question about something the answer was the church is the final authority on doctrinal questions, and that was that, The church can not be wrong,

Why do we kneel to idols when the bible says,because the church said so, why do we call the preist father when the bible says , because the church said so, why is the preist not married when the bible says, Because the church said so, Why do pray to mary when the bible says, Because the church said so.

The church is not God and the church that God appointed is supposed to guard and uphold the teachings of his holy word, Not tear them down and replace them with something else,

yours in Christ
deu 58

You forgot one. We have a Bible because the Church said so.

All you have shown is that you were poorly cathechised.

Peace

 

[Isidore_AK]

Tell me something? The church that declared Nestorius a heretic? Is it not the same church that declared Luther a heretic? Declared Calvin a heretic? Captured John Huss for preaching grace, and burned him at the stake? Captured Wycliff for publishing a Bible in the language of the people, and had him put to death? Are we speaking of the same church that declared Nestorius a heretic? The same church that later on organized the Great Inquisition, having millions killed if they refused to convert to their religion?

The more I think about it..... the more I realize what was condemning Nestorius may have been a reason to think he was correct.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

STOP SAYING THAT WYCLIFFE WAS EXECUTED FOR PUBLISHING A BIBLE IN ENGLISH. HE WASN'T!!! See my previous post. This is a blatent lie, even Protestant sources deny this!

And millions killed in the Inquisition? What kind of 'fantasy' history are you reading? This is also a blatent lie.

You are losing credibility very rapidly.

Genez, if you think that a declared heretic might have a point just because the Catholic & Orthodox Churches call them heretics, then you have a serious problem...

 

[Spyridon]

From post #63

It is impossible for God to have a mother. God created motherhood.

Mary could only be the mother of the humanity of Christ...

Remove Deity from his humanity (not that, that could happen) and you will only find humanity...

Which is it? If diety and humanity cannot be separated in Christ (and they can't) then how could Mary be the the Mother only of Christ's humanity and not His deity?

Mary is the Mother of God, because Jesus Christ is God.

 

[Spyridon]

You forgot one. We have a Bible because the Church said so.

All you have shown is that you were poorly cathechised.

Peace

Good one.

 

[lionroar0]

One thing you have to note is that Jesus didn't have Godly powers while he was on earth. The power came from God. But of course Jesus is God. Part of God, God's Word.
And not until Jesus rose from death he was given the power:

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Do you think that when child is born the new soul is combination of mom and dad's soul? I don't think so, I believe the only thing that is born from men and women is flesh and God takes care of the rest. So you can only say that from your mom your body was born but from God you have born.
Do you agree?

Sure Mary was blessed to giving birth of God's earthly body. But from holy spirit Jesus was born not from Mary.

Jesus is fully human and fully God. He always had the power. He didn't reive it after HIs death. He always had it. That verse says that He had ALL POWER on Heaven and on Earth not when, because He always had it.

Peace

 

[88Devin07]

I looked at that thread, but it wasn't anything but debating. I want to know, has either church officially declared whether she was sinless from her birth, or sinless after Jesus' birth?

The only completely sinless person (from birth) was Jesus, and that is Biblical...

However, Mary, and other Christians, are all sinless from the point of accepting Jesus and repenting, onward.

Mary was sinless, but only after she believed in Jesus and repented of her sins. We are sinless whenever we are washed with Christ's blood.

So basically, when you ask forgiveness, you are sinless. But that doesn't mean you haven't commited sins in your lifetime. You've sinned, but are forgiven. And are thus sinless...

Mary was sinless, just as we are all sinless from the point of forgiveness on.

 

[Axion]

All you are doing is what politicians try to do when they can not refute their opponent, They resort to unfounded name calling. I know what Nestorianism is. I am not saying the same things. But, I think that does not matter to you. You now need a means to verbally attack the one who has refuted you, but you can not really counter-refute without attacking what you do not understand.

You have not refuted anyone. I have challenged you to either abandon or defend the pagan Gnostic heresy you have openly avowed on this thread. You have failed to do so and responded with nothing but bluster.

I have never said Jesus did not have a body (which is what the gnostics really said.)

No. The Gnostics taught that Jesus was never really incarnate. Different branches taught, like the Apollinarians that God descended temporarily into a human shell and then left it - which seems close to what you have been saying here. Others like the Nestorians you openly admitted to agreeing with, said that there were two persons to Christ, ne of which was divine and did not suffer or die and one, the human, that did.

Both are non-Christian positions.

And, as for Nestorius? Only the same church that rejected the likes of Luther, Huss, Calvin, Zwingly, and Wycliff, added Nestorian to their list of intolerances towards anyone who showed the flaws in the doctrines of the RCC. Its not theology with them. Its a power ploy.

Once again you attempt to change the subject to slide away from whether you are a Christian who believes in the incarnation or not. Huss, Calvin and Zwingli have nothing to do with this. And these people killed and burnt those who disagreed with their theology. I note that you do not state which church you belong to, perhaps you have something to hide about your real beliefs?

 

[Axion]

That is against forum rules.

Rule No. 1 - No "Flaming"
1.1 You will not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest.
1.2 You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal (ad hominem) attacks on the member himself or herself.
1.3 You will not misquote another member regardless of context.
1.4 You will not directly state or otherwise imply that another member is not a Christian.

The Council has spoken!

Here's another rule for you.

6.5 You will NOT post in the "Christians Only" forums (but may post in all other forums) and will NOT use a "Christian" faith icon in your profile if you consider yourself a "Christian" but do NOT adhere to the contents of the Nicene Creed (including but not limited to Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Unitarians, United Pentecostal Church members, Oneness Pentecostals or Church Of Christ Scientists). There are specific faith icons for "LDS" and "Jehovah Witnesses". Others may use the "Other-Church" faith icon.


Unless you dhere to the basic Creed of Christianity you should not be posting here or using a Christian icon.

 

[Axion]

I looked at that thread, but it wasn't anything but debating. I want to know, has either church officially declared whether she was sinless from her birth, or sinless after Jesus' birth?

Of course. The consistent teaching of all the ancient Churches is that Mary lived a sinless life in its entirety.

The only completely sinless person (from birth) was Jesus, and that is Biblical...

However, Mary, and other Christians, are all sinless from the point of accepting Jesus and repenting, onward.

Mary was sinless, but only after she believed in Jesus and repented of her sins. We are sinless whenever we are washed with Christ's blood.

Adam and Eve were created sinless. The bible tells us that several people were righteous in God's eyes, including Elizabeth, Zechariah and John the Baptist. Mary needed to be sinless before Jesus was born, since she gave her human flesh and nature to Christ. Christ could not be one with sin or take a sinful nature from Mary. If Mary was a sinner she could not have borne the Son of God.

 

[GenemZ]

Raising the dead is not a Godly power

That power came from the Father!

John 5:19 niv
"Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does."

What he did was all from the Father. He had to become as one of us, in order to die in our place.

John 10:32 niv
"but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

That power was passed on to the Apostles....

John 14:12 niv
"I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father."

The miracles performed by the Apostles? Did that make them God, too? Jesus said that they would do even greater things than he did.

This is Modalism or Sabellianism, a heresy. God is three persons, not three parts.

The Trinity of God is three persons with one essence.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

STOP SAYING THAT WYCLIFFE WAS EXECUTED FOR PUBLISHING A BIBLE IN ENGLISH. HE WASN'T!!! See my previous post. This is a blatent lie, even Protestant sources deny this!

I did correct this. What they did, was to dig up his remains about 40 years after he died, and burned his remains.

And millions killed in the Inquisition? What kind of 'fantasy' history are you reading? This is also a blatent lie.

There were Inquisitions, not just one.

You are losing credibility very rapidly.

I lost it in an instant, I'm sure. What credibilty did I ever have with you?

Genez, if you think that a declared heretic might have a point just because the Catholic & Orthodox Churches call them heretics, then you have a serious problem...

The Catholic church is no longer the tryanny it once was. For, it has had its teeth knocked out by independent believers who grew in grace and knowledge.

Luther, God bless his soul, was great believer. Not always correct, mind you. But, a great believer in Christ. So was John Hus. Both were declared heretics by your mother church. Your church even went as far as to execute John Hus. Luther got away from them. But, in their holiness, had a contract out on his life, as well.

Grace and amazement..... GeneZ

 

[JimfromOhio]

All I can say is that EVERY Denominations will disagree on this issue. Since this Forum Thread is located Christian Forums > For Christians Only > Theology > General Theology which means this is OPEN to all Christians from various denominations. I do respect Catholic's and Orthodox's beliefs in their definition of Virgin Mary. As a non-Catholic, this is what I believe:

Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ, who was conceived within her by the Holy Spirit when she was a virgin. She is often called the "Virgin Mary," though never in Scripture are those two words put together as a proper name (Matt. 2:11; Matthew 1:23; Luke 1:27; Acts 1:14). Little is known of Mary personal history. Her genealogy is given in Luke 3. She was of the tribe of Judah and the lineage of David (Psalm 132:11; Luke 1:32). She was connected by marriage with Elisabeth, who was of the lineage of Aaron (Luke 1:36). Mary was a direct descendant of King David which gave Jesus the right to ascend the Jewish throne, both through Mary and through adoption by his foster father, Joseph. (Mary's genealogy is supplied in Luke 3:23-38.)

Human Sinful Nature
For thousands of years, every human child has been born with an inherited sin nature and sinful flesh (Romans 8:3). This is a result of our sinful first parents, Adam and Eve to whom we are all genetically related. Each generation (without exception) has sinned (Rom. 3:23) and passed on its sinful nature and the curse of death, to each succeeding generation (the biblical doctrine of imputation of sin - Romans 5:12-19). There is only one exception in history. Although Jesus grew in the womb of Mary, in the same manner as any baby, he was different from all other babies. Jesus was born sinless even though either Mary had an inherited sin nature. Jesus was sinless, since he was to serve as the spotless and sacrificial Lamb of God.

As Scripture tells us, Jesus was truly the Second Adam. The first Adam was a special creation of God (not related to any human being), and so was the second Adam (Romans 5:12-19). Jesus was just as fully human as the first Adam. And just like the first Adam, he had no sin nature, no inherited sin, no sinful flesh, which has always been passed from one generation to the next since Adam and Eve's sin. He was absolutely pure and without sin--from the day he was born, till the day he died. He had to be--he was the Lamb of God, without blemish or spot, sacrificed for sins (John 1:29).

Let's AGREE to disagree. Okay? Thanks !!

 

[GenemZ]

From post #63



Which is it? If diety and humanity cannot be separated in Christ (and they can't) then how could Mary be the the Mother only of Christ's humanity and not His deity?

You blood can not be separated from your flesh, or you die. But is your blood, flesh? Would I be a heretic in medicine if I said that the flesh is not blood, and the blood is not flesh? Both need to be together for its function. Likewise, Deity is not humanity, and humanity is not Deity. Jesus was not to function in the power of his Deity if he was to die in our place. Its in the Bible!

"Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross! "
Philippians 2:5-8 niv

His Deity in him was in complete identification with his humanity. But! His humanity was not in complete identification with his Deity. Deity and him were one. But, in order to qualify to die in our place, only functioning as humanity could qualify. If he was something other than humanity in his function as a man, we might as well have had a cow die in our place. For a cow would have been as far removed from being a substitute death, as being God would have.

If his Deity was controlling his humanity he would have not needed the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Nor, would he have depended on the Father for all his needs. He would have done all with his own power. That is what many theologians have seen by what is written in Scripture.

Mary is the Mother of God, because Jesus Christ is God.

Jesus = Humanity.
Christ = Deity.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

Jesus is fully human and fully God. He always had the power. He didn't reive it after HIs death. He always had it. That verse says that He had ALL POWER on Heaven and on Earth not when, because He always had it.

Peace

Jesus Christ is fully man, and fully God. Jesus without the Christ, speaks only of his humanity. Make sure you keep Jesus and Christ together when defining the Hypostatic Union! That's why he is called Jesus Christ!

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

You have not refuted anyone. I have challenged you to either abandon or defend the pagan Gnostic heresy you have openly avowed on this thread. You have failed to do so and responded with nothing but bluster.

Pass the bluster, please!

No. The Gnostics taught that Jesus was never really incarnate. Different branches taught, like the Apollinarians that God descended temporarily into a human shell and then left it - which seems close to what you have been saying here.

"Close?" I thought you said that is what I have been saying. Now, please? Make up your mind? Can you?

Others like the Nestorians you openly admitted to agreeing with, said that there were two persons to Christ, ne of which was divine and did not suffer or die and one, the human, that did.

Do you know why Satan tempted Jesus to turn the stones into Bread?

Both are non-Christian positions.

Was Luther a Christian? Was John Hus? (answer, please)....

Once again you attempt to change the subject to slide away from whether you are a Christian who believes in the incarnation or not. Huss, Calvin and Zwingli have nothing to do with this. And these people killed and burnt those who disagreed with their theology. I note that you do not state which church you belong to, perhaps you have something to hide about your real beliefs

I believe you are treating me with the same amount of understanding, as the Catholic church had towards Hus and Luther. Would you not agree? Now, do not change the subject on me. I am not claiming to be their equal. I am only speaking concerning your ability to get a firm grip on where I am coming from. I think what I say makes no sense to you. For in the way you have been inculcated by your church, you have no room for thinking differently.

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

Here's another rule for you.

6.5 You will NOT post in the "Christians Only" forums (but may post in all other forums) and will NOT use a "Christian" faith icon in your profile if you consider yourself a "Christian" but do NOT adhere to the contents of the Nicene Creed (including but not limited to Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Unitarians, United Pentecostal Church members, Oneness Pentecostals or Church Of Christ Scientists). There are specific faith icons for "LDS" and "Jehovah Witnesses". Others may use the "Other-Church" faith icon.


Unless you dhere to the basic Creed of Christianity you should not be posting here or using a Christian icon.

I adhere to the Creed. You just are confused over what I am saying. Some others here get what I said. Should they be banned , too? What would you have left then? Catholics and Orthodox?

What I say has for a large extent been the teaching of Dallas Theological Seminary from the days of the founder, Lewis Sperry Chafer as president of the school. Should all Baptists who learned that the Deity of Christ could not die on the Cross be banned, too? They do not believe that Mary was sinless. Nor do they believe Mary was the mother of God. They believe Mary was the mother of his humanity. Every Baptist pastor I have learned from says the same thing. Are they not Christian?

Maybe we have a Baptist pastor in our midsts who can help us out? That is, if he doesn't fear being labeled a heretic and banned from being able to call himself a Christian in this forum?

Once I mention that the humanity of Christ (his manhood) is not Deity, and that his Deity is not his humanity....... you jump through a hoop and begin accusing me of saying that his Deity and humanity do not function as a unit.

Try looking here: http://www.contenderministries.org/Catholicism/marymother.php

My skin gets sunburned, and hurts. Does that mean my liver should hurt, as well? That if my liver does not hurt? That my liver is not a part of my function? Likewise, to say that Deity can not die, yet the humanity of Christ could? Is to say I am isolating one from the other as being separate in the function of the whole? You keep saying that I do.

But, I have patience Grace and peace, GeneZ