Mary

[ScottBot]

Hello scott_lafrance



By "credible information" do you mean the Catholic Church?? That would kind of be like going to the Aryans Nations for information regarding the truth of the Holocaust,

yours in Christ
deu 58

How about an unbiased historian. Shesh. Someone stop the ride, I wanna get off.

 

[Oblio]

That includes SDA's Mormons, Messianics, Jehovahs Witnesses etc, I disagree with all the doctrinal positions held by these groups, But it is not my place to judge who is saved and who is not

He did not question their salvation. He said they were not Christians.

 

[ScottBot]

He did not question their salvation. He said they were not Christians.

Well, Jesus did say that anyone who rejected the faith taught by the Apostles, rejected Jesus. I don't have a whole lot of comfort in the salvation of anyone who rejects Jesus.

 

[Oblio]

I don't have a whole lot of comfort in the salvation of anyone who rejects Jesus.

I agree, and the key point is do they (Nestorians, JWs, Mormons) worship the same Jesus that we do. We can be uncomfortable, but should not limit God on who He will save in the end, for that is His decision alone. We are withing our rights to call out heresy and those things which separate those of us from orthodox Christianity. Nestorianism is one of those things.

Of course this is a non-issue for those that do not believe in OSOS, IOW there is not a one-to-one correspondence with being a Christian and attaining salvvation.

 

[GenemZ]

What people seem to forget is that this whole question is not about Mary but about Christ and the truth of the incarnation. By calling Mary the "mother of God" we are not elevating Mary but declaring the truth that God did indeed become man. When Nestorius refused to call Mary the mother of God, but instead the mother of Christ, he unwittingly taught that Christ was one person and God the Son was another. So instead of teaching as the evangelist Saint John that "the Word became flesh", he taught that "the Word was joined to flesh but did not become flesh".

.

It says.....

John 1:1 niv
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

God the Word is Eternal. He always was. Always will be. The Word is God.

Now, that same Word entered the Burning Bush that spoke to Moses. Are you saying that bush itself is now God?

Exodus 3:4-6 niv
"When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!"

And Moses said, "Here I am."

"Do not come any closer," God said. "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground." Then he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God."

Now? What Nestorius said? He would have said that the bush itself was not God. That the one who spoke through the bush, was God. To hear the voice was to hear God. Yet, you would call him a heretic because Moses
saw the bush as God speaking to him. Which is true in that sense, as well.

But, One also realizes, that if someone planted the seed that the bush grew into? Was not to be called, the "Farmer of God."

I ask you a question? If this was 1500? Would I be excummincated? Or, would I have been burned at the stake? Wycliffe, was condemned by the church. For what? For translating the Bible into the language of the people! In 1416 the Council of Constance condemned Wycliffe as a dangerous heretic!

One of Wycliffe’s followers, Hohn Hus, promoted Wycliffe’s ideas: that people should be permitted to read the Bible in their own language, and they should oppose the tyranny of the Roman church that threatened anyone possessing a non-Latin Bible with execution! Hus was burned at the stake in 1415, with Wycliffe’s manuscript Bibles used as kindling for the fire. The last words of John Hus were that, “in 100 years, God will raise up a man whose calls for reform cannot be suppressed.”

In the light of that. I would be quite hesitent to be so judgemental of others who your church many years ago condemned. I would first get a solid grasp on what the Scriptures teach (in your own language, I might add), and not what religious hierarchical power did in order to maintain absolute power during the dark ages. Done of course, all in the "name of God."

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[SolomonVII]

The more I think about it..... the more I realize what was condemning Nestorius may have been a reason to think he was correct.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

Someone to presents himself as a person who adheres to the rules of this forum, and then go on and advocate the position of someone who clearly is not a Christian according to the rules of this forum, is to be totally lacking of any kind of personal integrity.
If you are a Nestorian, I respect your decision just as much as I would if you had chosen Islam, Wicca or anything else that you find believable.
But if your belief in the shared creed of this forum is a lie, then who's your daddy?

 

[deu58]

Hi oblio

He did not question their salvation. He said they were not Christians

How can a person be saved and yet not be a Christian????

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[deu58]

Hi Scott_lafrance

Well, Jesus did say that anyone who rejected the faith taught by the Apostles, rejected Jesus. I don't have a whole lot of comfort in the salvation of anyone who rejects Jesus.

Because some misunderstands something does not mean that they have rejected the apostles or Jesus, Someone already posted a list of differnt groups that are considered to heretical that actually used the scripture to support their positions,

This would indicate that they did not reject the Scriptures and the apostles teachings but came to completely different conclusions regarding them

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[GenemZ]

There is no credible historical evidence to substantiate the claim that the Catholic Church (not the Orthodox Church) did any of these things. I recommend you find a more credible source of information.

The only error was that I stated they burned Wycliffe at the stake. What they did, was to dig up his dead body after he was dead for about forty years, and burn up his remains. As for historical evidence? Just study a little Church History! When I attended Bible College I was assigned to research on John Hus.

http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/john-hus.html

That was when my eyes began to open to what corruption existed at the time of the councils which you wish to use to condemn others with. Not that all was said was wrong by the councils. It was the spirit of the soul of that church that bothered me. It was like living under an oppression of being kept behind a Religious Curtain. The opposite side of the same coin of being imprisoned behind the Iron Curtain.

Learn some background first. Be humbled by the truth. And, maybe you would not be so quick to condemn others like the church of the dark ages did. You are acting the same way. You can not back up your cherished traditions with Scripture. But, are quick to condemn those who study the Bible and see the inconsistencies between what your church declares as being true, and what the Bible says is the Truth.

Its the same old conflict. But, this time, you do not have the power to destroy. For, too many have their own Bibles and can verify what is being said from the Word of God! Not, by what men who take on positions of having an image of authority, may say. The Truth has made us free from such old tyranny.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[ScottBot]

Hi Scott_lafrance


Because some misunderstands something does not mean that they have rejected the apostles or Jesus, Someone already posted a list of differnt groups that are considered to heretical that actually used the scripture to support their positions,

This would indicate that they did not reject the Scriptures and the apostles teachings but came to completely different conclusions regarding them

yours in Christ
deu 58

That was me. The Nestorians reject the integral divine/human nature of Christ. The Arians reject Christ's divinity altogether. The Docetists reject Jesus' human nature. The Gnostics reject the unified, unchanging nature of God and claim salvation is dependent on secret knowledge. the Pelagians reject origninal sin and claim that man can attain salvation without grace. The Adoptionists claim that Jesus was just a man and was "infused" with divine power. How can one really understand the core Gospel message if you can't get the nature of Christ right?

 

[Dicy mind]

I wouldn't pray mary because she can't save me, only Jesus can.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Think about this, God used Mary to create Jesus's body.
Now who the get's pay for the job, the tool or the worker?

Jesus Christ is my saviour I will not have idols before or beside him.

Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.


Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

 

[GenemZ]

Well the Orthodox churches answer to this would be no (and there were not millions of people living in Europe at the time of the inquisition. Please refrain from posting such nonsense in the future)

John.

Would it be OK, then? If they only murdered several thousand unjustly during the various Inquisitions? If they had only tortured 5,000 Jews? In the name of God? Sorry to have exaggerated my numbers. I realize now, that with the lower numbers, it was a righteous thing to do.

Grace and , GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

Well, Jesus did say that anyone who rejected the faith taught by the Apostles, rejected Jesus. I don't have a whole lot of comfort in the salvation of anyone who rejects Jesus.

How do you know for certain that you are saved? Just curious.


Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[ScottBot]

Would it be OK, then? If they only murdered several thousand unjustly during the various Inquisitions? If they had only tortured 5,000 Jews? In the name of God? Sorry to have exaggerated my numbers. I realize now, that with the lower numbers, it was a righteous thing to do.

Grace and , GeneZ

Don't start a discussion of the Inquisition if you don't understand everything surrounding the issue. Since it is obvious that you don't I'd recommend you drop it. Otherwise, start a thread about it and leave it out of this conversation because it is not germain to the topic being discussed.

 

[Oblio]

Would it be OK, then? If they only murdered several thousand unjustly during the various Inquisitions?

The point is, the Orthodox Church did no such thing.

 

[GenemZ]

Someone to presents himself as a person who adheres to the rules of this forum, and then go on and advocate the position of someone who clearly is not a Christian according to the rules of this forum, is to be totally lacking of any kind of personal integrity.
If you are a Nestorian, I respect your decision just as much as I would if you had chosen Islam, Wicca or anything else that you find believable.
But if your belief in the shared creed of this forum is a lie, then who's your daddy?

I simply stating. In the light of who (and what condemned him) I would tend to rethink what he believed. I am not teaching what he taught. After all, the same church body is the one who condemned a man (Wycliffe) for producing a Bible in a langauge of the people.

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

Don't start a discussion of the Inquisition if you don't understand everything surrounding the issue. Since it is obvious that you don't I'd recommend you drop it. Otherwise, start a thread about it and leave it out of this conversation because it is not germain to the topic being discussed.

Oh, yes! It is! For with the same church's councils you use in attempts to condemn me with. Is the same church who justified the Inquistions. I am not here to go into detail about the Inquisitions. That should be in another thread. But, it was the spirit of the soul of the church organization that you are standing on, and condemning others with who do not agree with you, that I bring up such an obvious matter. And, having been of Jewish background before I was saved, gives me a perspective towards the Inquisitions of your cherished church, that needs no further explaining.

Grace and truth, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

The point is, the Orthodox Church did no such thing.

I was not directing that to the Orthodox church.... Unless, it was the Orthodox church that organized the Great Inquisitions. Was it? I think not.

As far as I know, nothing I said was being directed to the Orthodox Church.


Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[ScottBot]

Gene, you might want to consider taking off your helmet of "I'm not listening to you are anything you have to say." This conversation has stagnated to the point of irrelevance.

 

[Dicy mind]

Jesus = God
Jesus = Man
Jesus = Born of Mary

So then God and man were born of mary. Unless you don't think Jesus is god.

Saint_George

One thing you have to note is that Jesus didn't have Godly powers while he was on earth. The power came from God. But of course Jesus is God. Part of God, God's Word.
And not until Jesus rose from death he was given the power:

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Do you think that when child is born the new soul is combination of mom and dad's soul? I don't think so, I believe the only thing that is born from men and women is flesh and God takes care of the rest. So you can only say that from your mom your body was born but from God you have born.
Do you agree?

Sure Mary was blessed to giving birth of God's earthly body. But from holy spirit Jesus was born not from Mary.