Mary: Theotokos?

[Lynn73]

No, Catholics are simply misinterpreting and using the Scripture in a wrong manner to put much more focus on Mary that there should be. Jesus is our Lord and Savior but you spend so much time on her, where does Jesus fit in? A little baby in His mother's arms? A dead Jesus on a crucifix? A stern unwilling Savior who will only listen to His mother? A wafer? You give, imho, Mary a position way above what the Bible gives her. Jesus didn't exalt her as you do. You really need to ponder on this:

Isaiah42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.


Do you not think He is serious about this? God is to be the center of our focus, not Mary, but what is the Catholic church known for? Their devotion and exaltation of Mary.

 

[Borealis]

No, Catholics are simply misinterpreting and using the Scripture in a wrong manner to put much more focus on Mary that there should be. Jesus is our Lord and Savior but you spend so much time on her, where does Jesus fit in? A little baby in His mother's arms? A dead Jesus on a crucifix? A stern unwilling Savior who will only listen to His mother? A wafer? You give, imho, Mary a position way above what the Bible gives her. Jesus didn't exalt her as you do. You really need to ponder on this:

Isaiah42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.


Do you not think He is serious about this? God is to be the center of our focus, not Mary, but what is the Catholic church known for? Their devotion and exaltation of Mary.

Thank you for demonstrating your absolute lack of knowledge of the Catholic Church. The Church is devoted to GOD. Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass? Mary is mentioned three times; once during the Act of Contrition (and I ask the Blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God), once during the Apostle's (or Nicene) Creed, and once during the Eucharistic prayer. Mass is about Jesus, not Mary. The focus of the Church is God, not Mary. Why does the Church get the reputation it does? Why do people insist that the Church worships Mary and not God?

BECAUSE OF PEOPLE CONSTANTLY LYING ABOUT WHAT THE CHURCH REALLY TEACHES!

 

[Qoheleth]

Let's be honest here, we both know that no Protestant denomination ever calls mary blessed, or the mother of God, or recognizes her above themselves.

This is an awful statement, Theo. Let me help you. Please consider the Lutheran Book of Concord and its references to Mary. (there are others)



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Article III: Of the Son of God.[/font] [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1] Also they teach that the Word, that is, the Son of God, did assume the human nature in 2] the womb of the pure Virgin Mary, so that there are two natures, the divine and the human, inseparably enjoined in one Person, one Christ, true God and true man, who was born of the blessed Virgin Mary... (Augsburg Confession)

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[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]The Person of Christ[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]24] On account of this personal union and communion of the natures, Mary, the most blessed Virgin, bore not a mere man, but, as the angel [Gabriel] testifies, such a man as is truly the Son of the most high God, who showed His divine majesty even in His mother's womb, inasmuch as He was born of a virgin, with her virginity inviolate. Therefore she is truly the mother of God, and nevertheless remained a virgin. (Formula of Concord--Solid Declaration)
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Q
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[zaire]

Thank you for demonstrating your absolute lack of knowledge of the Catholic Church. The Church is devoted to GOD. Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass? Mary is mentioned three times; once during the Act of Contrition (and I ask the Blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God), once during the Apostle's (or Nicene) Creed, and once during the Eucharistic prayer. Mass is about Jesus, not Mary. The focus of the Church is God, not Mary. Why does the Church get the reputation it does? Why do people insist that the Church worships Mary and not God?

BECAUSE OF PEOPLE CONSTANTLY LYING ABOUT WHAT THE CHURCH REALLY TEACHES!

Ive listened to several on the radio. And all i ever hear is 'HAIL MARY'.

 

[zaire]

All we get in N.Ireland is catholic's slabbering at protestants and saying they arent christian. This very week some catholic priest called a presbyterian minister "someone who knows alot of theology but doesnt know much about christianity" - he did this live on radio.

 

[Lotar]

 

[Theophorus]

This is an awful statement, Theo. Let me help you. Please consider the Lutheran Book of Concord and its references to Mary. (there are others)



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Article III: Of the Son of God.[/font] [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1] Also they teach that the Word, that is, the Son of God, did assume the human nature in 2] the womb of the pure Virgin Mary, so that there are two natures, the divine and the human, inseparably enjoined in one Person, one Christ, true God and true man, who was born of the blessed Virgin Mary... (Augsburg Confession)

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[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]The Person of Christ[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]24] On account of this personal union and communion of the natures, Mary, the most blessed Virgin, bore not a mere man, but, as the angel [Gabriel] testifies, such a man as is truly the Son of the most high God, who showed His divine majesty even in His mother's womb, inasmuch as He was born of a virgin, with her virginity inviolate. Therefore she is truly the mother of God, and nevertheless remained a virgin. (Formula of Concord--Solid Declaration)
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Q
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Qoheleth, Yes, how could I have forgotten the Lutherans. please accept my apologies. I should have said the majority. The 1st reformers did not share the views of many protestant denominations today.

 

[Borealis]

Ive listened to several on the radio. And all i ever hear is 'HAIL MARY'.

Then you're not listening to a Catholic mass.

 

[Theophorus]

Ive listened to several on the radio. And all i ever hear is 'HAIL MARY'.

I don't believe it for a second.

http://myweb.lmu.edu/fjust/Mass.htm

 

[Qoheleth]

Qoheleth, Yes, how could I have forgotten the Lutherans. please accept my apologies. I should have said the majority. The 1st reformers did not share the views of many protestant denominations today.

All is well. And yes, I agree that the vast majority of Protestants do not concur with the early reformers concerning the Theotokos.

Q

 

[PaladinValer]

Those who fail to learn from history are indeed doomed to repeat it.

So it seems

what I refer to is the fact that many Protestants, while they are willing to acknowledge that it is ok to call Mary Theotokos as a theological definition of her place in the scheme of salvation, it is not right to adore her as the Theotokos, i.e. Holy Mary, Mother of God, &c.

Just a small quip with the bolded section: Marian (and for that matter any large "S" Saint) veneration isn't either dogma or doctrine in any Apostolic Church. These are disciplines that are entirely optional to the individual.

You can be a good Apostolic Christian without doing any Saint venerations.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but there was never a time when Jesus wasn't.

What part of this do you not understand?:

and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.

Jesus is the Incarnation of God the Son. Incarnations are time-specific with a point of origin. There was a time when God the Son wasn't Incarnate as Jesus the Christ.

All we get in N.Ireland is catholic's slabbering at protestants and saying they arent christian. This very week some catholic priest called a presbyterian minister "someone who knows alot of theology but doesnt know much about christianity" - he did this live on radio.

How absurdly one-sided. So much for honesty...that virtue flew right out the window

 

[Lynn73]

Thank you for demonstrating your absolute lack of knowledge of the Catholic Church. The Church is devoted to GOD. Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass? Mary is mentioned three times; once during the Act of Contrition (and I ask the Blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God), once during the Apostle's (or Nicene) Creed, and once during the Eucharistic prayer. Mass is about Jesus, not Mary. The focus of the Church is God, not Mary. Why does the Church get the reputation it does? Why do people insist that the Church worships Mary and not God?

BECAUSE OF PEOPLE CONSTANTLY LYING ABOUT WHAT THE CHURCH REALLY TEACHES!

Maybe if people and leaders in your church would quit bowing to all these Mary statues (breaking the second commandment) and parading them through the streets with fancy clothing and bejewed golden crowns on their head while thousands hold candles in adoration we might beleive you. Popes placing crowns on Mary statues, people flocking by the thousands to "Mary" apparitions sites. Praying to her instead of to God. Thinking they need to go through her to get to Christ. Come on, actions speak louder than words and as long as these things are going to go on we're going to be believing that you worship Mary. We don't see all this attention going where it belongs, on Christ.

 

[InnerPhyre]

Maybe if people and leaders in your church would quit bowing to all these Mary statues (breaking the second commandment) and parading them through the streets with fancy clothing and bejewed golden crowns on their head while thousands hold candles in adoration we might beleive you. Popes placing crowns on Mary statues, people flocking by the thousands to "Mary" apparitions sites. Praying to her instead of to God. Thinking they need to go through her to get to Christ. Come on, actions speak louder than words and as long as these things are going to go on we're going to be believing that you worship Mary. We don't see all this attention going where it belongs, on Christ.

Please stop lying. There is not a Catholic on EARTH who prays to Mary INSTEAD of God. In addition to our prayers to God, we ask for Mary to pray for us. Enough of this nonsense.

 

[FearAndTrembeling]

So the greetings from the angel Gabriel and Elizabeth are meaningless, then? "All generations shall call me blessed" is just something Catholics stuck in the Bible to promote Mary worship, is that it?

I speak for myself.

I don't think they are meaningless, I don't think anything that is written is meaningless. I don't think catholics were the ones to write it. I don't think catholics are "bad evil" people. Catholics have a faith, and many are very sincere in that faith. They have rules and many follow those rules to a T.

When I read "All generations shall call me blessed" I see it pointing to Christ who is the one who provided blessing and mercy. I, in none of my understanding would ever even consider that this verse is promoting Mary worship. But rather again is pointing to Christ who is the Savior.

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. 36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing shall be impossible. 38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

I cannot read any more into this other than God was assuring Mary of Her salvation through the Savior that would be born unto Her. And what a blessing to receive! The assurance of salvation!
John 17:3 - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.



40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. 41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

"Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God"


42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Is the focus on Mary, or on Christ? "Blessed" art thou.... Who provides blessing? God does through the mercy of Christ.

43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Again is the focus on Mary, or on Christ?

44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

This is a testimony of the Word of God, that as soon as the sure Word of God sounded in Elisabeths ears even the baby in Her womb testified that this surely is Christ the Savior.

45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

The Spirit of truth was in their hearts as they glorified and believed God that surely He had brought them salvation.

46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Mary is confessing that even her soul, her inner man, cries out to God with praise, even as she had sought Him, He commanded His love toward Her.

48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Surely God had listened to Mary's cry, and answered Her greatly, and now because the Word of God, even the Savior was in her womb, she was certain of her salvation, because even the Savior was surely going to be born unto her.

49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

Mary is praising God, and calling Him Holy, as she reconizes it is entirly God who sanctifies His people.

50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

And surely God is merciful to those who fear Him, and love Him in obedience.

51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.

This is a testimony of God declaring His own strength and righteousness:
Isaiah 59:16 - And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. 53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.

Those who have pride will be made low, and those who are humble will be filled with blessing, and those who think they have, have nothing.

54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; 55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

His promise was fullfilled and witnessed to Mary, therefore she testified of God's faithfulness, yet not her, but the Holy Spirit within Her spoke of the truth.


So again, if there is a reason to "worship" Mary that I am not understanding, please bring it to my attention. Does the catholic doctrine teach that it is obedience to God(true faith) to pray to Mary, or to "Worship" Mary?

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

So focusing on Mary must take away from focus on Christ? Why, then, do Protestants focus more on the Bible than on Christ? Or is it possible that the two are not in conflict but rather compliment one another and lead to God? Why, then, can the same not be true of Marian devotion?

Rob

 

[livingproofGM]

Maybe if people and leaders in your church would quit bowing to all these Mary statues (breaking the second commandment) and parading them through the streets with fancy clothing and bejewed golden crowns on their head while thousands hold candles in adoration we might beleive you. Popes placing crowns on Mary statues, people flocking by the thousands to "Mary" apparitions sites.

In this post, I see you breaking a very important commandment by putting Mary in quotations so disrespectfully. You are not honoring your mother like Christ honored His mother. We are told to live like Christ, right? You can start by showing His mother a little respect.

Praying to her instead of to God. Thinking they need to go through her to get to Christ. Come on, actions speak louder than words and as long as these things are going to go on we're going to be believing that you worship Mary. We don't see all this attention going where

You never get tired of this argument do you? To pray means to ask. We ask Mary to pray for us. Simple.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

No, Catholics are simply misinterpreting and using the Scripture in a wrong manner to put much more focus on Mary that there should be. Jesus is our Lord and Savior but you spend so much time on her, where does Jesus fit in? A little baby in His mother's arms? A dead Jesus on a crucifix? A stern unwilling Savior who will only listen to His mother? A wafer? You give, imho, Mary a position way above what the Bible gives her.

Thank you for demonstrating your absolute lack of knowledge of the Catholic Church. The Church is devoted to GOD. Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass? Mary is mentioned three times; once during the Act of Contrition (and I ask the Blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God), once during the Apostle's (or Nicene) Creed, and once during the Eucharistic prayer. Mass is about Jesus, not Mary. The focus of the Church is God, not Mary. Why does the Church get the reputation it does? Why do people insist that the Church worships Mary and not God?

BECAUSE OF PEOPLE CONSTANTLY LYING ABOUT WHAT THE CHURCH REALLY TEACHES!

In all fairness, I believe that Lynn73 is not lying. I think she thinks that way she has been raised to think and holds those beliefs in all sincerity.

Yours in Christ.

 

[livingproofGM]

No, Catholics are simply misinterpreting and using the Scripture in a wrong manner to put much more focus on Mary that there should be.

Mary brought your savior into the world. It doesn't matter that you don't agree, but if it wasn't for her 'yes' to the angel, we wouldn't be doing so well, would we? We give Mary every ounce of respect she deserves. You give her none.

You give, imho, Mary a position way above what the Bible gives her.

If you read the Bible without the intention of trying to prove someone wrong, you'll see respect for Mary all over the pages, beginning with an angel calling her full of grace. Not Mary, but, "Hail, full of grace."

 

[livingproofGM]

43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Again is the focus on Mary, or on Christ?

She is honored that the Mother of the Lord is in her presence. Honor is being given to both.

 

[FearAndTrembeling]

So focusing on Mary must take away from focus on Christ? Why, then, do Protestants focus more on the Bible than on Christ? Or is it possible that the two are not in conflict but rather compliment one another and lead to God? Why, then, can the same not be true of Marian devotion?

Who are protestants? And what are they protesting?

How is it possible to focus on Mary in truth? Is Mary a Spirit which testifies of Herself?

We know of Mary because of the Word of God. We know of Christ through the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit which testifies of Christ. Therefore we have assurence that He is our intecessor, because it is His Spirit of truth that sanctifies us. That same Spirit of Truth that confirms His Word in our hearts, unto faith, and faith unto salvation.

John 4:24 - God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

John 17:17 - Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

John 3:8 - The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 15:26 - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 5:39 - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Mary was indeed a believer who found great mercy, and much blessing from God the Father. Everything in and around her points to Christ, but if we give her an ounce on divinity(righteousness) on her own behalf and we call her sinless and acceptable and that God's mercy was not applied to Her, then we make God a liar.

We give Mary every ounce of respect she deserves.

Philippians 2:13 - For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Matthew 19:17 - And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Hebrews 3:3 - For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

Revelation 5:12 - Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

If you read the Bible without the intention of trying to prove someone wrong, you'll see respect for Mary all over the pages

What is this respect for Mary that you speak of. That she was a believer and wished to be obedient to God? There is in fact very little mentioned about Mary, and that which is mentioned about Mary points to Jesus Christ as our Savior. So how then do we worship Mary in truth if Jesus Christ is the Truth? How does Mary intercede with our thoughts and prayers if Jesus Christ is the intercessor? Where did Mary get her righteousness? Was it not from Jesus Christ?

I am learning, as we all are, I cannot judge, I cannot know, but if there is sound reason for a righteous praise to Mary beyond that of Jesus Christ, please bring it to my attention.

She is honored that the Mother of the Lord is in her presence. Honor is being given to both.

But without the Lord in her belly, what honor was there?