Mary Sinless?

[ThomasAbel70]

Hi, this is my first post on this site, and I look forward to exploring the community.

To start, I'm currently a member of a Baptist church, and I have been studying Catholicism and Church history lately. My main studies on Catholicism have been over the Internet through various sites, and I've got a book I'm currently reading about the Early Church.

Through my research, I've found that the Catholics have many good points that they defend through Scripture. I can't say that I agree with everything, but I'm developing a much greater understanding of why Catholics believe what they do. Of course, it's hard to argue with a point when there is Scripture to support it, and so I've found that most of my issues with the Church are resolved.

Here is probably the single greatest thing that I now take exception to, and that is the idea that Mary, mother of Jesus, did not sin. I've read a bit on this topic, but it just does not make sense to me that she, who was only human, could have possibly been sinless.

Please note that I'm simply trying to learn as much as I can, and of course I pray that God will lead me down the right path. I know that He will not let me down as long as my trust is in Christ. With that said, I would really appreciate anyone's clarification about Mary, and where the idea of her sinlessness and the Immaculate Conception came from. Thank you.

There is no scriptural evidence that states that Mary ever sinned.

There is scriptural evidence that Jesus could not have been produced from a bad tree and since He was a good fruit, the tree too must have been good from which He was produced.

Jesus Himself said nothing good can come from evil. Therefore, Mary could not have had any evil in her.

Question:

If you had the choice of sending your child on a field trip in a dirty, beat up, unrealiable and unsafe school bus or in an immaculately clean, brand spanking new, untouched, rock solid reliable school bus, which would you pick to send your kid to that field trip in?

Now, if you'd pick the immaculate school bus, why wouldn't God who is more perfect than you could ever be, do the same?

 

[bbbbbbb]

There is no scriptural evidence that John the Baptist did not have seven heads. There are at least seven reliquaries containing authentic, certified skulls of John the Baptist in officially consecrated churches. Therefore, should we believe that John the Baptist actually sported seven heads Were they there at the same time or did he regrow them after they were lopped off

Using your logic regarding Mary, one would have to conclude that her mother was also sinless because she, as a good fruit, could not have come from a bad tree. As well, all of her matrilineal anscestors must have been sinless going all the way back to Eve. Sadly, the Bible tells us that Eve sinned. Moreover it tells us emphatically that everyone has sinned (Psalms 14 and 53, Romans 3:1-15). The only exception to that rule is the God-Man, Jesus Christ.

 

[pgp_protector]

There is no scriptural evidence that states that Mary ever sinned.

There is scriptural evidence that Jesus could not have been produced from a bad tree and since He was a good fruit, the tree too must have been good from which He was produced.

Jesus Himself said nothing good can come from evil. Therefore, Mary could not have had any evil in her.

Question:

If you had the choice of sending your child on a field trip in a dirty, beat up, unrealiable and unsafe school bus or in an immaculately clean, brand spanking new, untouched, rock solid reliable school bus, which would you pick to send your kid to that field trip in?

Now, if you'd pick the immaculate school bus, why wouldn't God who is more perfect than you could ever be, do the same?

If Good can't come from Evil, can Evil come from Good ?

 

[katholikos]

Here is an article you guys should read:
Hail Mary, Conceived Without Sin (This Rock: September 2007)

 

[bbbbbbb]

Here is an article you guys should read:
Hail Mary, Conceived Without Sin (This Rock: September 2007)

It is a long article and, unfortunately, without any information that has not been produced countless times on various threads here at CF.

One great curiosity is the Catholic divisions of sin - original, mortal, venial, and temporal, to name at least four categories. Interestingly, the Bible does not classify sins so neatly for us. One can only conclude that these are theological classifications unique to Catholicism. The concept of original sin is a foundational argument in the above-referenced article. If, indeed, Mary had to be without original sin to bear Jesus, then her mother also would have had to have been without original sin, as well, not to mention all her matrilineal line going back to Eve. If not, then how did God eliminate original sin in that line and where did He end it? Could He have ended it with Jesus rather than Mary? I think so, don't you?

 

[katholikos]

It is a long article and, unfortunately, without any information that has not been produced countless times on various threads here at CF.

The truth needs repeating.

One great curiosity is the Catholic divisions of sin - original, mortal, venial, and temporal, to name at least four categories. Interestingly, the Bible does not classify sins so neatly for us......

Wrong.

First, you are mixing apples and oranges. We can only commit two kinds of sin: Mortal and Venial. Original sin is something that happened once, and "tempral" refers to the punishments/consequences for sin that we experince in this life.

As for Mortal and Venial sin, the Bible is clear:

"If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death" (1 John 5: 16-17).

So we have sin that leading to death (mortal) and sin not leading to death (venial).

 

[bbbbbbb]

The truth needs repeating.



Wrong.

First, you are mixing apples and oranges. We can only commit two kinds of sin: Mortal and Venial. Original sin is something that happened once, and "tempral" refers to the punishments/consequences for sin that we experince in this life.

As for Mortal and Venial sin, the Bible is clear:

"If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death" (1 John 5: 16-17).

So we have sin that leading to death (mortal) and sin not leading to death (venial).

Setting aside your argument for the division of mortal and venial sin, the crux of the argument concerning Mary is that she was without original sin. I am unfamiliar with the biblical argument from Catholicism concerning original sin. I do know the theological argument, so that does not need to be repeated here. Specifically, I would like to know what biblical text states the Catholic doctrine of original sin. I do not mean the generic texts stating that all have sinned or that we were born in sin, but specific texts stating that everyone (Mary and Jesus excepted) is born with "original" sin which is removed through the rite of trinitarian baptism.

You have also yet to address my previous question regarding the original sin of Mary's mother and the matrilineal line going back to Eve. Is it possible that God could have eliminate the original sin at some point in that geneaology, even at the point of Jesus Christ, rather than Mary?

Thanks.

 

[katholikos]

Setting aside your argument for the division of mortal and venial sin, the crux of the argument concerning Mary is that she was without original sin.....

For the sake of clarity, the belief is that at the moment of her conception God preserved her from the "stain" of original sin. It was an act of God, something which is no doubt within his capabilities as God. But lets move on.

.........I am unfamiliar with the biblical argument from Catholicism concerning original sin. I do know the theological argument, so that does not need to be repeated here. Specifically, I would like to know what biblical text states the Catholic doctrine of original sin. I do not mean the generic texts stating that all have sinned or that we were born in sin, but specific texts stating that everyone (Mary and Jesus excepted) is born with "original" sin which is removed through the rite of trinitarian baptism.....

Two issues here:

1) Original Sin is not a uniquely Catholic doctrine. I'm sure you can find theological arguments from protestant theologians as well. I am just going to say it simply, which may not be theologically accurate: Original Sin is essentially the absence of grace. Adam and Eve were created sinless, in a right relationship with God. In other words, they were created in a state of Grace. By their sin, they fell out of their right relationship with God - they "fell from Grace". Now, you and I agree that grace is not given to every human being at birth, otherwise we would have Universalism. Ergo, that which was given to Adam and Eve at their creation is not given to anyone else at their birth, which means we inherit this absence of grace (referred to as the stain of original sin) from Adam and Eve.

2) Baptism's effect on original sin is another issue probably best left to another thread on baptism.

........You have also yet to address my previous question regarding the original sin of Mary's mother and the matrilineal line going back to Eve. Is it possible that God could have eliminate the original sin at some point in that geneaology, even at the point of Jesus Christ, rather than Mary?........

Are you asking if God has the power to "eliminate the original sin at some point in that geneaology"? The same God that vreated the heavens and the earth? What do you think? I think God has the power to pretty much do whatever he wants.

 

[ThomasAbel70]

If Good can't come from Evil, can Evil come from Good ?

I think Jesus answers that... Luke 6:
43For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

 

[ThomasAbel70]

It is a long article and, unfortunately, without any information that has not been produced countless times on various threads here at CF.

One great curiosity is the Catholic divisions of sin - original, mortal, venial, and temporal, to name at least four categories. Interestingly, the Bible does not classify sins so neatly for us. One can only conclude that these are theological classifications unique to Catholicism. The concept of original sin is a foundational argument in the above-referenced article. If, indeed, Mary had to be without original sin to bear Jesus, then her mother also would have had to have been without original sin, as well, not to mention all her matrilineal line going back to Eve. If not, then how did God eliminate original sin in that line and where did He end it? Could He have ended it with Jesus rather than Mary? I think so, don't you?

There are 2 types of sin: Mortal and Venial (which Peter calls sins that lead to death and sins that don't lead to death).

And actually, the Bible does classify sin...

1 John 5
16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.


www.fideidefensor.proboards.com

 

[MamaZ]

Does "all" include Jesus? What about babies, does this statement include them? How about the mentally challenged, them too?

Jim

Was Jesus just human?

 

[MamaZ]

No where are the sins that you speak of as Mortal and Venial mentioned in scripture.

 

[MrStain]

No where are the sins that you speak of as Mortal and Venial mentioned in scripture.

Degrees of sin are mentioned in the Christian Canon of Scrpture.

In John's 1st Epistle he mentions sins leading to death, aka mortal sins, and sins that do not lead to death (1 John 5:16-17).

Another example is the sin against the Holy Spirit which is clearly placed at a whole higher degree of sin in that it cannot be forgiven (Matt. 12:32).

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Rick Otto]

You say that the Catholic Church insults Jesus with incest (which is absurd)but I could easily say that you insult Jesus by assuming that he could preside in anything(Mary's womb)less than perfect.

Why? He presided in a fallen creation, right? And if anything is possible with Him, why not nine months in an "imperfect" womb?

Absurd would be to vainly imagine religious affectations to be literal realities.

 

[Rick Otto]

Degrees of sin are mentioned in the Christian Canon of Scrpture.

In John's 1st Epistle he mentions sins leading to death, aka mortal sins, and sins that do not lead to death (1 John 5:16-17).

Another example is the sin against the Holy Spirit which is clearly placed at a whole higher degree of sin in that it cannot be forgiven (Matt. 12:32).

Just my 2 cents.

Your 2 cents isn't enough to purchase an awareness of hyperbole. There literaly is no sin which cannot be forgiven. The taxonomy is just an extension of an overly proprietary attitude.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=ThomasAbel70;51968438]There is no scriptural evidence that states that Mary ever sinned.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

There is scriptural evidence that Jesus could not have been produced from a bad tree and since He was a good fruit, the tree too must have been good from which He was produced.

The sin nature is passed through one’s biological earthly father, which the Lord Jesus did not have.

Jesus Himself said nothing good can come from evil. Therefore, Mary could not have had any evil in her.

Evil isn't sin. Mary had a human father, therefore she inherited the sin nature of Adam.

Question:

If you had the choice of sending your child on a field trip in a dirty, beat up, unrealiable and unsafe school bus or in an immaculately clean, brand spanking new, untouched, rock solid reliable school bus, which would you pick to send your kid to that field trip in?

Now, if you'd pick the immaculate school bus, why wouldn't God who is more perfect than you could ever be, do the same?

Question:
If you were God and had the choice of whether or not to make a perfect creation, or one that would experience a fall & salvation, which would you pick?

Why hasn't my life been a smooth ride on an immaculate school bus if God had the choice to make it so?

 

[MrStain]

Your 2 cents isn't enough to purchase an awareness of hyperbole. There literaly is no sin which cannot be forgiven. The taxonomy is just an extension of an overly proprietary attitude.

Why the clanging symbols instead of addressing the scripture verses I mentioned?

“Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.” (1 Cor 13:1)

Is there a reason for your hope?

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=MrStain;Why the clanging symbols instead of addressing the scripture verses I mentioned?

Poetic but myopic, you missed that I addressed your verse picks as mere propriatary assertions over scriptural interpretation. They have no legitimizing value in attempting to guild a priestcraft facade of sacred science with a taxonomy of sin.

“Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.” (1 Cor 13:1)

Is there a reason for your hope?[/quote]
Props to you for recognizing I have it, and yes, the reason is His love, which I also have, Once Loved, Always Loved.

 

[bbbbbbb]

For the sake of clarity, the belief is that at the moment of her conception God preserved her from the "stain" of original sin. It was an act of God, something which is no doubt within his capabilities as God. But lets move on.

Agreed, with the understanding that God does not require baptism to remove the stain of original sin from anyone because God is quite capable of doing it without our aid.

Two issues here:

1) Original Sin is not a uniquely Catholic doctrine. I'm sure you can find theological arguments from protestant theologians as well. I am just going to say it simply, which may not be theologically accurate: Original Sin is essentially the absence of grace. Adam and Eve were created sinless, in a right relationship with God. In other words, they were created in a state of Grace. By their sin, they fell out of their right relationship with God - they "fell from Grace". Now, you and I agree that grace is not given to every human being at birth, otherwise we would have Universalism. Ergo, that which was given to Adam and Eve at their creation is not given to anyone else at their birth, which means we inherit this absence of grace (referred to as the stain of original sin) from Adam and Eve.

There is a very wide range of understandings concerning the lasting implications of the Fall. The Catholic understanding may be similar to some Protestant theologies, but it is not the same. Most Protestant theologies ascribe to original sin much more than a mere absence of grace. As the old Puritan rhyme states it, "In Adam's Fall, Sinned We All." which means that sin is imputed to all mankind because of Adam's transgression (Romans 5:12) and that all are sinners, and not innocent bystanders merely lacking grace.

I believe that grace is given to no one at birth. We not only inherit the absence of grace, but the sin nature of our first parents, Adam and Eve.

2) Baptism's effect on original sin is another issue probably best left to another thread on baptism.

Agreed.

Are you asking if God has the power to "eliminate the original sin at some point in that geneaology"? The same God that vreated the heavens and the earth? What do you think? I think God has the power to pretty much do whatever he wants.

Then, you have not a shred of evidence pointing to the elimination of original sin at the birth of Mary, rather than at the birth of Jesus, or at some other point in the genealogy. God indeed did exactly as He intended in entering this world without sin in the person of His Son, Jesus Christ. He did not suspend the natural order of birth prior to or after the birth of Jesus Christ. The birth of Christ was unique. The birth of Mary and all of humanity, was not.

 

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