Mary Sinless?

[dinomight]

Please support this with Scripture. There is no scripture that says only a pure person can carry Jesus.

And if you say "the Ark of the Covenant", the "Word of God" wasn't in the Ark, the budding rod (Aaron's or Moses', I forget), a bowl of Mana, and the 10 commandments (the version Moses remade) were in the Ark.

Yes, I'm saying that it makes sense in the context of the Ark of the Covenant. I suppose another way of putting it would be that the original gold ark was the Ark of the Old Covenant, whereas Mary would have figuratively been the Ark of the New Covenant, represented by Christ.

I don't see how this interpretation of Scripture is really so different from other instances where we compare Old Testament prophecy to New Testament fulfillment. Since nothing in Scripture is insignificant, as it's all divinely inspired, why could this OT/NT relationship between the Ark and Mary not be real? It seems like this connection is harder for us, as Protestants, to understand simply because it's not one that Protestant Biblical scholars promote.

Anyway, another day of good discussion, but I've got to go to church early in the morning and should be getting to bed now. Good night, and thanks again for the thought-provoking comments. This is definitely a challenging topic.

 

[larry_boy_44]

Yes, I'm saying that it makes sense in the context of the Ark of the Covenant. I suppose another way of putting it would be that the original gold ark was the Ark of the Old Covenant, whereas Mary would have figuratively been the Ark of the New Covenant, represented by Christ.

I don't see how this interpretation of Scripture is really so different from other instances where we compare Old Testament prophecy to New Testament fulfillment. Since nothing in Scripture is insignificant, as it's all divinely inspired, why could this OT/NT relationship between the Ark and Mary not be real? It seems like this connection is harder for us, as Protestants, to understand simply because it's not one that Protestant Biblical scholars promote.

Anyway, another day of good discussion, but I've got to go to church early in the morning and should be getting to bed now. Good night, and thanks again for the thought-provoking comments. This is definitely a challenging topic.

I guess my biggest problem with it (and with all the other Mary stuff) is that it is completely, 100% not mentioned in the Scriptures...

Is Mary respected? Absolutely. But respected or honored and being said to be without sin from the day you were born are completely different things...

 

[Clifford B]

Why does Mary need to be sinless? Wasn't she the mother of her own Lord? Is not Jesus the only one who mediates prayer to God?
She did not stay virgin...Jesus had brothers and sisters. The only exception given to "all have sinned" is Jesus. We are not even to call any man "father".

 

[MrStain]

The problem with this is that "full of grace" is much more likely to mean simply "lots and lots of favor" and not "perfect in every way".

We've been down this road already, but grace cannot be detached from the Greek work that is used, kecharitomene. This word (perfect passive participle) is not just describing a simple action from the past, but the perfect tense is used to indicate that an action has been completed in the past resulting in a present state of being. Hence, the angel is calling Mary the one who was endowed with grace and that state of being remains with her. This "lots and lots of favor" is grace and we know Scripture tells us grace is what helps us overcome the pull of sin. Lastly, don't forget God certainly has the power to keep one from falling (Jude 1:24).

Another name change from God I missed: Jacob to Israel.

 

[MrStain]

Please support this with Scripture. There is no scripture that says only a pure person can carry Jesus.

And if you say "the Ark of the Covenant", the "Word of God" wasn't in the Ark, the budding rod (Aaron's or Moses', I forget), a bowl of Mana, and the 10 commandments (the version Moses remade) were in the Ark.

Just want to point out one thing. The stone tablets are in fact the word of God written with the "finger of God". (Ex 31:18).

ETA: Yes, I know Moses smashed them in his anger, but God was kind enough to write His words on another set of tablets (Ex 34:1). Also, I believe Jewish tradition says that both sets were kept in the Ark.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Clifford B

Why does Mary need to be sinless?

Because the stain of original sin is passed on from parent to child, Jesus, although he is God, became fully human at the moment of conception. For him to be born free from the stain of original sin, his mother would have to be first. Remember, Joseph is not his biological father, but the Holy Spirit is. In Jewish tradition, a child is Jewish, only if the mother is and in this context, the child receives original sin from the mother, because the child in the womb, receives from the blood of the mother.

Wasn't she the mother of her own Lord?

Mary is also the mother of Jesus. There is no separating from this role.

Is not Jesus the only one who mediates prayer to God?

We pray to Jesus, for others. Can we not prayer to His Mother, and ask her for her prayers? After all, Jesus is her Son, who will not refuse her request.

She did not stay virgin...Jesus had brothers and sisters.

Not true. The brothers and sisters refereed to in Scripture, were cousins of Jesus. During Mary's time, extended families lived within the same households and villages. To prevent in-breeding, siblings down through the 3rd generation were revered to as brothers and sisters.

The only exception given to "all have sinned" is Jesus. We are not even to call any man "father".

Jesus was not referring to titles when he said, call no one father, other than your Father in heaven. He was teaching us to see God as our Father in the context of God being the provider and protector of all. Jesus called Joseph his father, and the Jews called Abraham their father. People who try to use this piece of Scripture as an argument, still acknowledge their own as their father's.

Jim

 

[calluna]

Jesus is her Son, who will not refuse her request.

She will be raised to judgement and to perish. She can hear no-one, unless by necromancy.

The brothers and sisters refereed to in Scripture, were cousins of Jesus.

Nonsense.

 

[larry_boy_44]

We've been down this road already, but grace cannot be detached from the Greek work that is used, kecharitomene. This word (perfect passive participle) is not just describing a simple action from the past, but the perfect tense is used to indicate that an action has been completed in the past resulting in a present state of being. Hence, the angel is calling Mary the one who was endowed with grace and that state of being remains with her. This "lots and lots of favor" is grace and we know Scripture tells us grace is what helps us overcome the pull of sin. Lastly, don't forget God certainly has the power to keep one from falling (Jude 1:24).

Another name change from God I missed: Jacob to Israel.

something that happened in the past and the result is her present state of being??

how are you not getting "SHE'S PREGNANT" out of that?

Something happened in the past (the Spirit came upon her and she was with child) and it resulted in her current state (being pregnant with Jesus, who is the saviour of mankind and her God manifest in flesh)...

and grace doesn't help us resist sin, grace is why God cares enough about us to have anything to do with us (and thus is the reason God gives us the other stuff)... Grace itself is nothing but favor (undeserved favor)..

 

[larry_boy_44]

Just want to point out one thing. The stone tablets are in fact the word of God written with the "finger of God". (Ex 31:18).

ETA: Yes, I know Moses smashed them in his anger, but God was kind enough to write His words on another set of tablets (Ex 34:1). Also, I believe Jewish tradition says that both sets were kept in the Ark.

pretty sure Moses wrote the second tablets. Either way, however, the "word of God" (anything God says/writes) is not the same as the "Word of God" (Jesus)

 

[dinomight]

Why does Mary need to be sinless? Wasn't she the mother of her own Lord? Is not Jesus the only one who mediates prayer to God?
She did not stay virgin...Jesus had brothers and sisters. The only exception given to "all have sinned" is Jesus. We are not even to call any man "father".

I would just second JimR's response to Jesus' "brothers and sisters." My studies so far have also led me to believe that, no, Jesus did not have literal siblings, simply cousins.

And, yes, Jesus is the only one who mediates prayer to God. He is our intercessor to the Father; however, when we pray for others, as we are supposed to do, we are interceding on their behalf to Jesus. Is it so hard to believe that those in Heaven also pray for us?

As for Calluna's statement about the dead, according to Mark 12:27, God "...is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living..." The faithful do not die.

 

[calluna]

I would just second JimR's response to Jesus' "brothers and sisters." My studies so far have also led me to believe that, no, Jesus did not have literal siblings, simply cousins.

Nonsense.

 

[Clifford B]

Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?


Matt 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

How do you explain this? Do you have another meaning for "know"?

 

[dinomight]

Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?


Matt 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

How do you explain this? Do you have another meaning for "know"?

That's absolutely a valid point, and much has been written explaining that this verse does not necessarily indicate that Joseph actually did "know" Mary after the birth of Christ.

The explanation I often see is that "until" does not always mean that whatever is being referred to changes afterward (sorry for my poor sentence structure; it's hard to explain in writing). For example, when the Bible talks about Jesus remaining with us until the end of the age, that does not indicate that Jesus will suddenly not be with us when the age does finally end. Yet, someone could certainly interpret it that way.

Here's a quote from an article on EWTN (unfortunately my post count is not high enough for me to be allowed to link to other sites).

"A second objection to Mary's virginity arises from the use of the word heos in Matthew's gospel. "He (Joseph) had no relations with her at any time before (heos) she bore a son, whom he named Jesus" (Mt 1:25, NAB). The Greek and the Semitic use of the word heos (until or before) does not imply anything about what happens after the time indicated. In this case, there is no necessary implication that Joseph and Mary had sexual contact or other children after Jesus."

 

[larry_boy_44]

I would just second JimR's response to Jesus' "brothers and sisters." My studies so far have also led me to believe that, no, Jesus did not have literal siblings, simply cousins.

And, yes, Jesus is the only one who mediates prayer to God. He is our intercessor to the Father; however, when we pray for others, as we are supposed to do, we are interceding on their behalf to Jesus. Is it so hard to believe that those in Heaven also pray for us?

As for Calluna's statement about the dead, according to Mark 12:27, God "...is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living..." The faithful do not die.

But the Bible seems to indicate no one gets to heaven until everyone gets there together... Rather, it seems to indicate that those who are dead (except Jesus) are "sleeping"...

 

[larry_boy_44]

That's absolutely a valid point, and much has been written explaining that this verse does not necessarily indicate that Joseph actually did "know" Mary after the birth of Christ.

The explanation I often see is that "until" does not always mean that whatever is being referred to changes afterward (sorry for my poor sentence structure; it's hard to explain in writing). For example, when the Bible talks about Jesus remaining with us until the end of the age, that does not indicate that Jesus will suddenly not be with us when the age does finally end. Yet, someone could certainly interpret it that way.

Here's a quote from an article on EWTN (unfortunately my post count is not high enough for me to be allowed to link to other sites).

"A second objection to Mary's virginity arises from the use of the word heos in Matthew's gospel. "He (Joseph) had no relations with her at any time before (heos) she bore a son, whom he named Jesus" (Mt 1:25, NAB). The Greek and the Semitic use of the word heos (until or before) does not imply anything about what happens after the time indicated. In this case, there is no necessary implication that Joseph and Mary had sexual contact or other children after Jesus."

The problem here is that too much is being made out of a doctrine that isn't explicitly stated.

What is the purpose of the gymnastics to try and explain away Jesus' brothers and sisters when its simpler to say "maybe they are siblings, maybe they did have sex, who knows"???

There is no good reason to say/think/assume that Mary never had sex. It seems to me it is nothing but an attempt to diefy Mary on some level.

 

[dinomight]

But the Bible seems to indicate no one gets to heaven until everyone gets there together... Rather, it seems to indicate that those who are dead (except Jesus) are "sleeping"...

Now, we're really getting into interesting territory. My belief is that a saved person immediately goes to Heaven upon death. Catholics believe that a soul generally goes to Purgatory first, which simply means a purification before being in the presence of God. I have heard this third idea you mention of a state of sleep before the judgment as well, but I strongly disagree with that one. Unfortunately, I think it's hard to say for certain what happens to the soul immediately upon the death of the body, because the Bible doesn't seem to explicitly state the fact. Still, I've never seen anything that would cause me to believe the soul goes to sleep.

 

[Clifford B]

When you said this, it becomes abundantly clear:

"A second objection to Mary's virginity arises from the use of the word heos in Matthew's gospel. "He (Joseph) had no relations with her at any time before (heos) she bore a son, whom he named Jesus" (Mt 1:25, NAB). The Greek and the Semitic use of the word heos (until or before) does not imply anything about what happens after the time indicated. In this case, there is no necessary implication that Joseph and Mary had sexual contact or other children after Jesus."[/quote]

If there was no change in their physical relationship, why was it made a point to pivot around "until"? If they no sex before and none after...."until" is totally meaningless. The author could say he never knew her....period.

 

[larry_boy_44]

Now, we're really getting into interesting territory. My belief is that a saved person immediately goes to Heaven upon death. Catholics believe that a soul generally goes to Purgatory first, which simply means a purification before being in the presence of God. I have heard this third idea you mention of a state of sleep before the judgment as well, but I strongly disagree with that one. Unfortunately, I think it's hard to say for certain what happens to the soul immediately upon the death of the body, because the Bible doesn't seem to explicitly state the fact. Still, I've never seen anything that would cause me to believe the soul goes to sleep.

I Thessalonians 4:

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

sleep was jsut a way to describe it (as accurate a word as I could come up with)...

But this verse seems to imply that the dead in Christ rise right before those who are alive and reman rise to meet Christ in the air to stay with Him forever... No one is coming from Heaven to the meeting but Christ (seemingly)

 

[edmond.sean]

Mary was sinless. Jesus didn't die for just our sins, but people of that era as well. When you repent, God forgives and forgets your sins...

 

[dinomight]

The problem here is that too much is being made out of a doctrine that isn't explicitly stated.

What is the purpose of the gymnastics to try and explain away Jesus' brothers and sisters when its simpler to say "maybe they are siblings, maybe they did have sex, who knows"???

There is no good reason to say/think/assume that Mary never had sex. It seems to me it is nothing but an attempt to diefy Mary on some level.

I think to an extent, this is an important topic because Mary did have such an important role in Christ's time on Earth.

But, I also agree with you in the sense that whether Mary remained a virgin or not and whether she was sinless or not, Jesus Christ is still my Savior, and it's only through Him that we can reach Heaven. It's that assurance that makes it possible for me to discuss such controversial topics, and even to look at things from other perspectives, without fear of losing my soul in the process.

So, I continue to study and discuss these things because I think that doing so helps me to develop a better understanding of Scripture and Church teachings through the ages. Of course, I pray that the Holy Spirit would lead me to discern between what is true and what is false. I have confidence that He will do so.