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Mary Sinless?
- Thread starter dinomight
- Start date
In a sense, yes, you're right. We Christians, including Catholics and Protestants, are a part of the universal Church of Christ. At the same time, it's a bit contradictory to say we are one Church when we all interpret scripture in vastly different ways and then become at odds with those who may have an equally valid interpretation.
When I say "truly" universal, I'm talking about a day when we may still have some differences, but we're not focused on those differences. Instead, we focus on our Savior.
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Calluna- I get the feeling that you have a lot of contempt in your heart for the Catholic Church. Maybe I'm wrong, but if so why, if you don't mind?
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Pardon? Would you care to elaborate?
Edit: I should add, are you trying to imply that I'm not a Christian or that anyone else here is not? My point being that I don't think we're in a position to judge someone's personal relationship with Christ.
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I'm sorry, I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean either. Are you saying I'm not being a good Christian by asking you a question?
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Ok, Calluna, I'm afraid that I cannot have this debate with you because I am at a complete loss on your perspective. I've perused through your previous posts, and it seems that you've mocked a great deal of people, thereby alienating yourself from everyone. You've insulted the Catholics, the Protestants, the Virgin Mary, and even her cousin Elizabeth. You suggested that Mary even rejected Christ. It's like your entire goal is to just stir things up.
I think it would help immensely if you would answer the questions Kat and I have asked you. Maybe you could explain what your Christian beliefs are, too. Otherwise, it's pointless to continue this line of discussion.
Hopefully, we'll get back to the original topic soon, which is the Immaculate Conception. I do have some more thoughts on that, which I'll probably share later on.
I think it would help immensely if you would answer the questions Kat and I have asked you. Maybe you could explain what your Christian beliefs are, too. Otherwise, it's pointless to continue this line of discussion.
Hopefully, we'll get back to the original topic soon, which is the Immaculate Conception. I do have some more thoughts on that, which I'll probably share later on.
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MrStain
Nobody likes to be the Newbie
From what I can tell, deranged would be a more accurate term.
I must add that it has been a pleasure having this discussion with you, Larry. These kind of debates can be challenging and you have given me some good things to think about & ponder throughout. You're a tough nut to crack.
I have not changed my mind of course, but you've given me different angles to consider when I have these conversations with others in the future.
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B
bbbbbbb
Guest
And, may I ask, why is this thread here? I think it should be in the Mariology section, instead, don't you? For the benefit of posters not familiar with that forum you will find this and many other related issues discussed ad nauseum. So, if you would like the fullness of this discussion I would highly recommend moving this thread and visiting some of the other threads there.
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Thank you for your suggestion, but perhaps you noticed that I am a new member. Surely I'm not expected to be familiar with every thread from the get go. I have come across the Mariology thread since making this post, and I'm sure there are good discussions there as well. Still, in answer to your question, I believe that this thread is equally at home in the denomination-specific theology thread. After all, wouldn't you agree that the Immaculate Conception is quite a significant piece of Catholic theology?
I can appreciate that you're trying to be helpful, but I just thought the tone of your question was a bit condescending. I've participated in other types of forums, and I always see new members being talked down to because they posted a topic that has already been discussed in the past or because some people don't like the placement of the person's topic. I guess that's just a pet peeve of mine, and I'm sorry if I'm being a bit harsh.
I think this is a great community so far, but the multitude of branching topics on the homepage is a bit overwhelming. Oh well. Nice to meet you all the same.
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MrStain
Nobody likes to be the Newbie
Share your thoughts, brother.
I alluded to this earlier, but I thought I'd touch on one more thing regarding the salutation from the angel. In Luke 1:28 the angel does not refer to Mary by her name, but instead greets her as "full of grace" (kecharitomene). In this way it appears that God's messenger considers "full of grace" to be Mary's name. This reminds me of when God provides Abram with a new name meaning "Father of Nations" and Jesus calling Simon, "Peter" aka the Rock. When God gives people new names he is emphasizing their character & the role they have to play in salvation history. Anyways, just thought I'd throw that out there since I knew there were a few more things you wanted to touch on.
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Thank you for sharing that with me. I am eager to continue learning, and you have a good point about the way God applies meaningful names to people throughout Scripture. By the way, I also looked at that chart you gave me showing the OT and NT comparisons related to Mary; I think my knowledge of this particular typology is pretty limited, so I was amazed to see so many clear connections. To me, it's exciting to see all the different ways parts of the Bible relate to one another, because those deep connections further show the impossibility that anyone but God could have created it.
So, here's something that came to my mind. I know it's an imperfect illustration, but I started thinking about science and genetics. We receive half of our chromosomes, containing genes, from our mother and half from our father. The way that original sin is passed from generation to generation is similar to genes being passed along. It is simply a part of us that is inherited just like our hair color and so on.
Progressing down that line, Jesus, who is fully man and fully God, inherited His human side from his mother, Mary. So, what prevented his human nature from inheriting sin, as we know He was completely sinless? Obviously, His birth itself was miraculous, and it seems there was a further miracle in place to allow Him to be born into the line of humanity with a fresh start basically. So, either God would have saved Mary ahead of time to prevent the original sin from continuing through her, or He prevented Jesus in some other way from inheriting it before He was conceived.
I think when you take this in combination with the idea that only a pure vessel would be able to carry the Living Word, the Catholic view of Mary is completely logical. It doesn't take away from what Christ did on the cross when you say that Mary simply received grace before she was even conceived; this is baffling to the human mind, because our minds are small, but we must remember that nothing is beyond God's abilities. I'm not saying that I've formed my opinion one way or the other on the Immaculate Conception, just that there is a lot of logic, seemingly well-supported by Scripture, to indicate the possibility of this event.
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larry_boy_44
Well-Known Member
Pretty sure the reason Jesus was born of a virgin wasn't so Jesus would have God as his dad, but because the sin nature/curse/whatever was passed down through fathers, not mothers. Whether Mary had sinned or not was irrelevant to Jesus' nature...
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larry_boy_44
Well-Known Member
Please support this with Scripture. There is no scripture that says only a pure person can carry Jesus.
And if you say "the Ark of the Covenant", the "Word of God" wasn't in the Ark, the budding rod (Aaron's or Moses', I forget), a bowl of Mana, and the 10 commandments (the version Moses remade) were in the Ark.
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larry_boy_44
Well-Known Member
The problem with this is that "full of grace" is much more likely to mean simply "lots and lots of favor" and not "perfect in every way".
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